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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 2505 times)

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TomBuckQuin

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #120 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 21:10* »
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I wait in hope.

Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical past you...

We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit undone.

And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.

I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you were at least honest about that I could have respect for you. Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.

Everyoneís a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #121 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 23:31* »
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I wait in hope.

Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical past you...

We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit undone.

And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.

I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you were at least honest about that I could have respect for you. Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.


I believe we will leave on the 29th of March. I have great faith we will as the government is too shambolic to come together to meaningfully sort something in the mean time, even if they think they have something to work off. In any case, you are as deluded as this government if you believe we wonít leave at all.

Because a democratic decision has been made, we should stand by it. The problem isnít the decision to leave itself, itís the donuts in charge and how to leave. Every referendum doesnít have a 2nd referendum just because one side doesnít like it, or because the people running the show havenít done the best job in getting us to leave. Things which hamper this whole operation is Remoaners, dishonest and immature MPís, opposition in Jeremy ďCanít make my mind up, oh wait I know, Iíll just keep calling for general electionsĒ Corbyn, and somewhat putting remainers in charge of leaving in the first place. The problem you have with your precious and possessed idea of a second referendum now is that not much of the country is interested, the country doesnít need it nor will it be healthy for both sides or for democracy itself. If you lack that vision, try to see that itís due to intrusive niggling that we havenít excelled in working out a better deal in the first place. If we had have got on with it with the right people and if the MPís acted with some honour and hadnít have tried to clamp our moving wheel, we would be off and already in the right direction. Itís undemicratic to have another vote, I could turn round and do a Remoaners after tonightís 312-308 and say ďoh well given as that was so close and me and my side doesnít like the way itís gone, thatís not fair, letís have another oneĒ. Silly childish behaviour and games.

Itís undemocratic because of the principle; people from both sides see this and will then ponder what will become of democratic votes in governments and so forth in the future, what is the point of having a vote if itís final decision gets changed. People wonít end up voting as they feel like no matter what even if their vote won, it can be so easily overturned now. This will be the start of the flood gates opening, once done here you will see repeats of this stupid petulant behaviour in the future. And it wonít always go your way. Thatís poker for you, at some point youíll trip on your own game.
You may call a 2nd vote democratic if it went your way but how should that vote prevail over the first one when they were both held in the same format and democratic way. Think about it. You canít have your cake and eat it, democracy when it suits you. When push comes to shove youíll discover that most of those MPís who oppose Brexit and putting it at risk are doing it for their own career and party interests and the keys to No10.

Of course as a Leaver Iíd fear not leaving, itís what I BELIEVE in and what I voted for. And of course because of this meddling and sabotage I would fear for democracy itself. Look at you for pointing out the obvious and mocking fear. Like youíve not been sat in it before. Does that make you feel big or something?

That sums you up ďIím loving the chaos tonightĒ. That sums up pretty much how adult thinking you are on this subject, you donít get your own way in the OG vote so you throw your power rangers out your pram. You mock others for what they believe in and throw out insults because you canít see that we actually believe in our country and its people if we were to Leave. You fail to see that there were lies on both sides, you fail to see the scaremongering, you fail realise this behaviour from our MPís will now be extremely damaging to the peopleís little faith they already had in politics and leave a foul taste in peopleís mouths, you fail to just accept the OG and final result, you fail to respect the people who voted for it or recognise that we are all different people; no one is the same and for you to brandish every Leaver as ill informed, racist, dumb.. I find that rather inflammatory. We all have many different reasons for wanting to leave and there are many, I donít have to keep listing them. Urgh, take a bath and rinse yourself of your biast stupidity. Itís you I pity.


Tom, you seem like a really nice bloke generally and I value your opinions on the Harlequins topics. I hate to address your comments in the same manner youíve shown me, but this just doesnít stick with me. You mock me and others from the very start in an attacking stance just because you want an asnswer for everything I or other Leavers do, believe in or say. You will never change your mind and I will never change mine. We donít have to agree on everything. I would like to think we could meet for a drink (a cola for me as Iím donít like alcohol) some time at The Stoop, enjoy rugby conversations, agree about how much we like Mike Brown and not so keen on Elliot Daly at 15 for England, and accept that we donít see eye to eye on Brexit. Iím ok with that fact.

Letís leave it here and how about instead of hoping for our separate sides to win, letís instead hope for mutual respect, and in the long term success for our country. You might even find that patriotism again.

I take my leave.
« Last Edit: Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 03:33* by Everyoneís a Quinner »

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #122 on: Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 09:18* »
Even the MP's who are Brexiteers are voting against the deal? WTF? The deal is not i-deal but it is a compromise worked out between two opposing sides with disparate approaches. It's not all about us, there is another party to this deal. Why on earth can't we just take what is the best we can currently get at this moment in time then do what we do best which is work to gradually improve various aspects over the coming years?

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #123 on: Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 13:47* »
Even the MP's who are Brexiteers are voting against the deal? WTF? The deal is not i-deal but it is a compromise worked out between two opposing sides with disparate approaches. It's not all about us, there is another party to this deal. Why on earth can't we just take what is the best we can currently get at this moment in time then do what we do best which is work to gradually improve various aspects over the coming years?

I agree with this.

But it comes down to ignorance and naivety.  Leavers don't like the deal because it doesn't meet what they fantasised about and were promised.  That's because they were lied to.  That's because the implications of leaving weren't understood.

The reality is it's never going to get any better than this.  This is the deal we've got.

If it's not what you wanted and is damaging to the country there's nothing to re-open, nothing to re-think.  You accept this and the damage it creates, or call off Brexit.

BedfordshireBoy

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #124 on: Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 14:11* »
Makes my head hurt watching this fiasco rumble on. I voted to remain but fully accept that we should now leave I just want the politicians to get on with it. I believe that we would be in a very weak position if we were to remain so we need to bite the bullet and sort it out. No deal exit "feels" wrong as those advocating it were the same people saying that the EU would come crawling to us looking for a deal. Is The May Deal that bad, I don't know enough about it?

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #125 on: Friday 15-Mar-2019, 13:16* »
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I wait in hope.

Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical past you...

We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit undone.

And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.

I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you were at least honest about that I could have respect for you. Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.

I've only just stared reading this thread - lunchtime, taking a break from working, no team selection to comment on etc. So, apologies of my points have been brought up previously.

For the record, I didn't vote in the referendum for purely logistical reasons. But I would have voted to leave. Had the result gone the other way I'd have been willing to simply move on, much as I do after each General Election. You buy a lotto ticket, but you're not guaranteed to win.

I will be disappointed if there is a delay to Brexit, because it seems that since the referendum there has been a concerted effort by many people to simply derail it from day one. I also think it would be massive slap around the face for voters if there were a second referendum - a kind of "you got it wrong, vote again" scenario. But here is my question, in the light of your hypothetical scenario: IF there were a second referendum with a higher turnout, what would happen if the result were the same, or even with a higher margin? It seems that everyone crying out for a second vote is certain that the result would be reversed, but the same people would have been equally certain of a different outcome first time around, I feel.

As regards mainstream politics, I think there needs to be a big change. Not necessarily the way of proportional representation, but in the actual people involved. Too many MPs are career politicians with no experience of real life; too many seem intent only on tripping up and disrupting the other side, and too many are seemingly on massive ego trips whilst sneering down at those that they don't agree with.

Much like the police, NHS, local councils etc, I just want people who will get the job done, not the career-driven, PC, self-serving out-of-touch swine that we see all too often.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #126 on: Friday 15-Mar-2019, 19:38* »
Itís only my opinion, but I just canít see how another referendum would be undemocratic.

We now know what Brexit will look like, itís complex and challenging and there are implications that we didnít know to sure. It is only right to reaffirm for those that voted Brexit that this is what they wanted and still the best for the country.

I actually think itís a bit outrageous to deny that opportunity, considering how many lies and untruths were told by both sides and continue to be told.

Now we have reality, not fantasy. Take it or leave it. Itís the right thing to ask again, considering the magnitude of the decision.

Everyoneís a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #127 on: Friday 15-Mar-2019, 21:12* »
Itís only my opinion, but I just canít see how another referendum would be undemocratic.

We now know what Brexit will look like, itís complex and challenging and there are implications that we didnít know to sure. It is only right to reaffirm for those that voted Brexit that this is what they wanted and still the best for the country.

I actually think itís a bit outrageous to deny that opportunity, considering how many lies and untruths were told by both sides and continue to be told.

Now we have reality, not fantasy. Take it or leave it. Itís the right thing to ask again, considering the magnitude of the decision.


I understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent, but to be fair though, whoís to say we know for certain what implications we would have had in the future if we were to Remain? Just my opinion but I donít like the things the EU wants to do in the future and I donít like the direction itís taking in its ventures etc.

No one can fully say what something looks like in the future, for example all the doom and gloom predictions that were being amplified to the public about chaos ensuing the very day the votes decision was clear, but most predictions proved to be wrong after the referendum result. Either way, you can never be 100% sure
« Last Edit: Friday 15-Mar-2019, 21:55* by Everyoneís a Quinner »

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #128 on: Monday 18-Mar-2019, 12:59* »
It is an odd one. We all seem to agree that ignoring the referendum result is undemocratic (except Alex who has a bumblebee in his knickers about it..:) ) yet Mrs May, who I greatly admire for sheer British Bulldog spirit, is able to keep recalling a vote on her deal until she gets the result she wants.

I also would like to point out that there are just as many ill informed "Remain" voters who, for example, seem happy for the EU to edge closer to being a Republic with its own Armed Forces and its own Foreign Minister plus we won't be able to stay out of the EU Monetary system for ever. Not to mention the unelected bureaucracy and the £billions of waste and duplication.

As somebody said above you cannot predict the future and you should deal with the current facts at hand and act accordingly. There was ignorance on both sides of the Leave/Remain divide but even as a person who voted Remain I now think of myself as a Leaver because we have had the vote and it is time to move on. All this uncertainty is far more damaging to Business and Commercial interests which in turn creates jobs than any Brexit will. Get on with it!!!

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #129 on: Tuesday 19-Mar-2019, 09:57* »

I understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent, but to be fair though, whoís to say we know for certain what implications we would have had in the future if we were to Remain? Just my opinion but I donít like the things the EU wants to do in the future and I donít like the direction itís taking in its ventures etc.

No one can fully say what something looks like in the future, for example all the doom and gloom predictions that were being amplified to the public about chaos ensuing the very day the votes decision was clear, but most predictions proved to be wrong after the referendum result. Either way, you can never be 100% sure

Have received your PM but having trouble replying as the system keeps changing your user name to lower case.....hopefully Kim Il DOK will be able to advise...?

Boonie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #130 on: Tuesday 26-Mar-2019, 12:21* »
Haven't read too much of this thread as I'm sick to death of the whole thing, but just a minor point on the referendum - there is precedent for second votes. Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6% (53% turnout). The second referendum in 2009 approved it by 67.1% to 32.9% (59% turnout). That could actually be construed as a third vote, as in 2001, they rejected the Treaty of Nice by 54%, with a 35% turnout. Earlier than that, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992; it was rejected by 50.7% of voters with a turnout of 83.1%. Then in 1993 it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.

So, it is neither undemocratic nor unprecedented to have a follow-up vote based on the latest information that is available. It is not unreasonable either; a great deal of information has come to light that was either not available or not publicised in the first round of rhetoric and insults; we know far more about the detail of what leaving means and what the different shades of leaving mean.

Of course, there is still a great deal of misinformation; for example there are those who would have you believe that GATT 24 will ride to the rescue; however, if we left with no deal, then GATT 24 would simply not apply.

All I know is that 30+ years working in the international supply chain industry leaves me with huge concerns about the entire situation; there are so few positives and so many negatives for supply chains, and whenever that happens, the only thing that goes up is prices.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #131 on: Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 08:41* »
Wel we are clearly not going to leave tomorrow....And I canít see anything changing between now and April or May so the can will keep getting kicked down the road.

Yesterdayís votes show MPs canít agree and donít seem to know what theyíre doing.

I go through ups and downs with hope and justification for another referendum. My enthusiasm and hope for it is building now - I think itís the only way out of this mess. The momentum is behind it now, I think.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #132 on: Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 08:46* »
Haven't read too much of this thread as I'm sick to death of the whole thing, but just a minor point on the referendum - there is precedent for second votes. Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6% (53% turnout). The second referendum in 2009 approved it by 67.1% to 32.9% (59% turnout). That could actually be construed as a third vote, as in 2001, they rejected the Treaty of Nice by 54%, with a 35% turnout. Earlier than that, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992; it was rejected by 50.7% of voters with a turnout of 83.1%. Then in 1993 it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.

So, it is neither undemocratic nor unprecedented to have a follow-up vote based on the latest information that is available. It is not unreasonable either; a great deal of information has come to light that was either not available or not publicised in the first round of rhetoric and insults; we know far more about the detail of what leaving means and what the different shades of leaving mean.

Of course, there is still a great deal of misinformation; for example there are those who would have you believe that GATT 24 will ride to the rescue; however, if we left with no deal, then GATT 24 would simply not apply.

All I know is that 30+ years working in the international supply chain industry leaves me with huge concerns about the entire situation; there are so few positives and so many negatives for supply chains, and whenever that happens, the only thing that goes up is prices.

Agree with all of this.

Just to add in my professional life Iíve not met one client or sector that is happy about Brexit. Itís been disruptive, costly, and will negatively impact growth and prospects over the longer term. Whilst not a fatal disaster in any individual sector, itís a big ask for people to suck up more austerity, more job uncertainty, higher prices and less growth.

If Iíd met even one that was optimistic - seizing the opportunities - excites about the prospects - my views would be different - but in 3 years Iíve not met even 1.

Itís not worth it.

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #133 on: Friday 29-Mar-2019, 13:52* »
Haven't read too much of this thread as I'm sick to death of the whole thing, but just a minor point on the referendum - there is precedent for second votes. Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6% (53% turnout). The second referendum in 2009 approved it by 67.1% to 32.9% (59% turnout). That could actually be construed as a third vote, as in 2001, they rejected the Treaty of Nice by 54%, with a 35% turnout. Earlier than that, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992; it was rejected by 50.7% of voters with a turnout of 83.1%. Then in 1993 it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.


Some might say that this is an example of having more votes until the "right" result is achieved...

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #134 on: Friday 29-Mar-2019, 13:57* »
Agree with all of this.

Just to add in my professional life I’ve not met one client or sector that is happy about Brexit. It’s been disruptive, costly, and will negatively impact growth and prospects over the longer term. Whilst not a fatal disaster in any individual sector, it’s a big ask for people to suck up more austerity, more job uncertainty, higher prices and less growth.

If I’d met even one that was optimistic - seizing the opportunities - excites about the prospects - my views would be different - but in 3 years I’ve not met even 1.

It’s not worth it.

Firstly, I have a question (which I've posted previously):

IF there were a second referendum with a higher turnout, what would happen if the result were the same, or even with a higher margin? It seems that everyone crying out for a second vote is certain that the result would be reversed, but the same people would have been equally certain of a different outcome first time around, I feel.

Secondly, I hate to buck the trend but I'm excited about the prospects post-Brexit.

I am concerned about your predictions though: "more austerity, more job uncertainty, higher prices and less growth". "...will negatively impact growth and prospects over the longer term". I don't know what you do for a profession, but I'd question your ability to be so certain about these things. Before you suggest that many experts have stated these as certainties, that can be countered by other experts suggesting different or opposite outcomes.

 

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