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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 1643 times)

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deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #75 on: Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 10:16 »
Problem is that there is no concensus for any alternative to the "deal". Corbyn holds the key to it all.

Everyone’s a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #76 on: Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 10:18 »
Corbyn showing his true colours...

Boonie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #77 on: Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 11:45 »
I'd still like to know exactly what deals we are going to strike with other countries.

Compared to where we were forty or fifty years ago, we have little or no manufacturing. Yes, we have some high end stuff, but no mass manufacturing, that's all far east or eastern Europe these days. We have an excellent service economy, but for things like Financial services, we already trade with pretty much everyone we need to. The EU is far and away our biggest trading partner, and we're in the enviable position of having a free trade deal with no painful Customs checks (I've been in international logistics for over 30 years, and I remember only too well the additional work involved in import/export before the borders came down in the early 1990s). As a member of one of the world's largest trading blocs, we are insulated from a lot of the issues around security of supply of both goods/utilities and currency fluctuations. As an isolated state, we are not.

Example - after the Neverendum Referendum, I heard someone saying something about "at last, we'll be able to buy New Zealand lamb again". We already do; almost half of all our lamb comes from NZ already. But we don't eat the kinds of lamb we produce in the UK; a massive proportion is sold to the EU because they eat cuts that we don't. That's just one example.

Others - I asked a serious question about the benefits of Brexit to a staunch Leaver. The argument eventually boiled down to not liking energy saving lightbulbs "imposed on us from Brussels", and that the EU was run by "bandits". Boris has talked about straight bananas, conveniently forgetting that prior to joining the Common Market, we had something called the Weights and Measures Act which defined all the same things - the EU version is a cobbled together version of our Act plus some of the other EU country versions. I hear problems about us being "rule takers". If we leave with no deal, and we want to trade with our biggest trading partner, we will have to obey all those tiresome EU directives that have aggravatingly led to safer products, reductions in harmful chemicals, lead paint on children's toys, and a hundred other inconveniences such as not being able to pump raw sewage onto leisure beaches and rights for workers. As soon as you leave, you become a rule taker; if you are inside, then you have a say as to what is in those rules, and when you implement them.

The EU is far from perfect. If the choice had been to leave the political elements of the EU but retain the Customs Union and Free Market, I'd have taken that...but the baby has well and truly been thrown out with the bathwater here, and despite protestations, I am not sure that every single person who voted to leave considered all of the implications. Staying in would always have left the option of leaving at a future date. Leaving burns your bridges - the chances of getting back in with all the elements we negotiated is unlikely.

The worst aspect is the paralysis of government over the last three years. So much more positive stuff could have been done if we had not been mired in this utter shambles.

Anyway...I await the next chapter with a barely concealed yawn and no expectation of anything good coming from this.

Rant over.
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Fearless Fred

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #78 on: Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 12:30 »
The problem with that scenario is that an extension to Art 50 requires the agreement of the other 27 EU members, and they've already said that they will only agree to that if the extension is for a) UK Parliament to sign off on the current WA or b) a change in the UK Gov negotiating position (removing or altering the UK-defined red lines enough to mean that a significantly different WA can be agreed. They may agree in the case of a referendum on the final deal, but if a General Election were to be called, there's absolutely no guarantee that the EU27 will agree to an extension. A revocation of Art 50 requires only the UK Government.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #79 on: Friday 18-Jan-2019, 11:07 »
It seems that the assumption is people who voted Leave have now been better informed and many will now vote to remain. Is this not possibly true vice versa?


Everyone’s a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #81 on: Friday 18-Jan-2019, 12:45 »
Yes I’ve met people who have since changed both from Leave to Remain and from Remain to Leave. Many people on I’ve met both sides of the fence are also fed up with channels like the BBC reporting and showing a clear and blatant one sided view of things which only pushes people further away.

General consensus I’ve come to find is people just want the government and MP’s do what’s best for the country, drop party bias and get on with leaving and working together to find the best solution/s to do just that
« Last Edit: Friday 18-Jan-2019, 12:51 by Everyone’s a Quinner »

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #82 on: Friday 18-Jan-2019, 13:32 »
I talk to a few colleagues about Brexit a bit, who have been pretty engaged with it.  Other conversations have been with just close friends and family.  I don't know anyone that has changed their mind and this includes leavers and remainers, aside from one who voted remain who is fed up with EU inflexibility and threatens to vote leave if there was another vote.  not sure he would actually do so though when push comes to shove.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #83 on: Friday 18-Jan-2019, 13:44 »
It seems that the assumption is people who voted Leave have now been better informed and many will now vote to remain. Is this not possibly true vice versa?

Whilst I don't have evidence to support this, my guess is probably yes.  I think the EU hasn't shown itself in a great light dealing with this process, and they haven't engaged and tried to understand what the problem was and reached out better to avoid a mess (whether they should have or not is another question - but I think they should have).  They don't get/understand Brexit - and they've made no attempt to understand what led to it.  Then there's the whole hard line their taking with Italy and problems in France etc - wouldn't surprise me if people had been turned off the concept!

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #84 on: Sunday 20-Jan-2019, 09:42 »
WEll if there is another referendum I will deffo vote to Leave even though I'm a Remoaner becuse that respects the original democratic vote.
Should such a referendum return yet another Leave result whither Parliament?

Boonie

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #85 on: Sunday 20-Jan-2019, 20:23 »
General consensus I’ve come to find is people just want the government and MP’s do what’s best for the country, drop party bias and get on with leaving and working together to find the best solution/s to do just that

But what if "doing what is best for the country" and "leaving" are at opposite ends of the spectrum? What if leaving is not the best thing for the country? There are clearly many MPs who are conflicted because of this.

Everyone’s a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #86 on: Tuesday 22-Jan-2019, 07:36 »
But what if "doing what is best for the country" and "leaving" are at opposite ends of the spectrum? What if leaving is not the best thing for the country? There are clearly many MPs who are conflicted because of this.

Boonie, with the greatest of respect my friend, what is for certain is that we are leaving. What I mean/t by “do what’s best for our country” is to do what’s best with the options we have, it’s up to the MP’s/Gov/Parliament to come together and do what’s best for their country with what they have to choose from in terms of leaving and moving forward.

I’ll get slated for this and I do understand it is a complete different subject and context but in reality the decision making process and finding of solution remains the same:
Fruit pastels.
Many peoples 1st choice is the strawberry flavour, a good many other people’s 1st choice is the blackberry flavour. Once those two are out of the picture or packet, there leaves us more meet in the middle options to chose from. There is only lemon, orange and lime left to choose and collectively they and we have to decide what’s best out of those options both in terms for our country now and also going forward into the future.

A big thing through all of this from the start on both sides was belief in our country and unity. Both of these things are needed going forward. We will get through this and prosper, no matter how much some selected media channels like to tell us we won’t.

« Last Edit: Tuesday 22-Jan-2019, 07:40 by Everyone’s a Quinner »

BedfordshireBoy

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #87 on: Thursday 24-Jan-2019, 16:42 »
One way of ensuring a No Deal Brexit is to constructively work towards a deal instead of all of this playing politics.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #88 on: Tuesday 29-Jan-2019, 08:55 »
If we are into analogies then my favourite is the Lego one. Imagine you and your 27 classmates have been building a city out of Lego for many years. It’s large and complex. Suddenly you decide to tell your classmates you don’t want to play any more and you want your blue Lego bricks back. You expect them to immediately accommodate you even though taking the blue bricks away will destroy some of the things that you’ve all agreed to build together. Instead of being accommodating and pragmatic about arranging this and taking responsibility for the difficulties your decision has caused others you kick up a real tantrum and demand your bricks back immediately and say that you never ever want to play with them again, even though there are a number of other games that you enjoy. You expect them to clear up the mess and do the hard work in rearranging things for you. You’re a bit of a **** really and need to grow up.

Everyone’s a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #89 on: Tuesday 29-Jan-2019, 14:43 »
If we are into analogies then my favourite is the Lego one. Imagine you and your 27 classmates have been building a city out of Lego for many years. It’s large and complex. Suddenly you decide to tell your classmates you don’t want to play any more and you want your blue Lego bricks back. You expect them to immediately accommodate you even though taking the blue bricks away will destroy some of the things that you’ve all agreed to build together. Instead of being accommodating and pragmatic about arranging this and taking responsibility for the difficulties your decision has caused others you kick up a real tantrum and demand your bricks back immediately and say that you never ever want to play with them again, even though there are a number of other games that you enjoy. You expect them to clear up the mess and do the hard work in rearranging things for you. You’re a bit of a **** really and need to grow up.

That doesn’t really reflect on what is going on though does it. Nor is that helpful in any way. And I wouldn’t call 2 years immediate either. When it’s something as trivial as a game then yeah I can see how that would be unreasonable however in real adult life we are having to follow EU sanctions and regulations to which we have in part had enough of.

The direction the EU is going regarding armies etc isn’t where we want to go. Also everybody has a right to change their mind, just because you are a part of something doesn’t mean you can’t have a freedom of choice to change your mind. I find that way of thinking unhelpful and disruptive towards actually progressing through this in a positive and grown up manner. We aren’t asking for all our money back (or bricks). The money (or bricks) we have already given to the EU (or in your case, a little toddlers tower), they can keep that. We are simply not wishing to keep building this little toddlers tower higher than its own good, as  it’s looking ready to topple. We do not wish to carry on in this way and do not wish to be a part of the European Union. It doesn’t mean we aren’t part of Europe in itself.

To conclude things by saying “You’re a bit of a **** really and need to grow up” is both very immature, very unfair and very aggressive for someone who is just voicing an opinion, like we are all free to do. I’d like to also point out that your concluding comment really does mirror your whole paragraphs attitude and manner in which you’ve voiced this with a lack of any decency or maturity.

We’ll agree to disagree. Regards
« Last Edit: Tuesday 29-Jan-2019, 14:46 by Everyone’s a Quinner »

 

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