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Author Topic: Equality Issues  (Read 486 times)

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Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #60 on: Saturday 31-Aug-2019, 08:54* »
Again, some interesting points, some of which I can see the validity of and some which I wouldn't agree with.

Seeking an equal balance (as the football example follows) is, in my opinion, unrealistic and detrimental. It totally overrides the elements of choice and luck. I have no idea why there have been so few black goalkeepers, but I think we both agree that there are no barriers to black players in football. I'd say it's choice, and luck (for the players who have the skill and aptitude to play in goal).

Let's turn this on its head. Why are there less white basketball players? Or sprinters? I recall studies suggesting that black muscle mass leans towards more fast twitch muscle fibres, which may be a factor, if it's true. But the only thing that should matter is ability and performance. How would standards drop if there had to be equal representation?

Looking at my industry, some of the most powerful figures are women. There isn't equal representation but what would it achieve if, for example, extremely capable people were replaced with less capable people, just to balance numbers?

Why are there more male business owners? It's just the way that the cookie crumbled, but it's also changing. Many females are starting businesses, but it takes time to grow, establish, and reach the top tier. Maybe historically men have been bigger risk takers, but history can't be changed and to try and forcefully fix the landscape now would be dangerous. Evolution is how change should happen, otherwise who decides when the balance is right? And why should there be an exact balance?

I'd suggest listening to the talks given by Jordan Peterson on this, and and other aspects of equality. He soundly debunks the feminist agenda and in so doing offers a wholly different perspective on equality, citing research and examples.

By the way, it's good to have a civil discussion and to exchange opposing opinions without the usual escalation into abuse and vitriol. Thanks for that.

Yareet

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #61 on: Saturday 31-Aug-2019, 11:35* »
Again, some interesting points, some of which I can see the validity of and some which I wouldn't agree with.

Seeking an equal balance (as the football example follows) is, in my opinion, unrealistic and detrimental. It totally overrides the elements of choice and luck. I have no idea why there have been so few black goalkeepers, but I think we both agree that there are no barriers to black players in football. I'd say it's choice, and luck (for the players who have the skill and aptitude to play in goal).

Let's turn this on its head. Why are there less white basketball players? Or sprinters? I recall studies suggesting that black muscle mass leans towards more fast twitch muscle fibres, which may be a factor, if it's true. But the only thing that should matter is ability and performance. How would standards drop if there had to be equal representation?

Looking at my industry, some of the most powerful figures are women. There isn't equal representation but what would it achieve if, for example, extremely capable people were replaced with less capable people, just to balance numbers?

Why are there more male business owners? It's just the way that the cookie crumbled, but it's also changing. Many females are starting businesses, but it takes time to grow, establish, and reach the top tier. Maybe historically men have been bigger risk takers, but history can't be changed and to try and forcefully fix the landscape now would be dangerous. Evolution is how change should happen, otherwise who decides when the balance is right? And why should there be an exact balance?

I'd suggest listening to the talks given by Jordan Peterson on this, and and other aspects of equality. He soundly debunks the feminist agenda and in so doing offers a wholly different perspective on equality, citing research and examples.

By the way, it's good to have a civil discussion and to exchange opposing opinions without the usual escalation into abuse and vitriol. Thanks for that.

Just so Iím 100% clear, I am no advocate of quota systems or artificially altering demographics. For any role, a competent person has to be selected.

Iíve long been an advocate that you change the demographic at the top by changing it at the bottom and letting that change filter through.

I would also reiterate that any choice we make is shaped by the world we live in.

I share your belief that there are some biological reasons why certain demographics excel in certain fields (such as the fast twitch fibres helping sprinters and low oxygen levels helping distance runners). But I canít see a biological reason why men would take greater risks.

I *can* see a societal norm that men are risk takers and women are meant to be more risk averse.

Iíve read a couple of interviews with Peterson and to be frank found him abhorrent. Fully prepared to see however that thatís probably because he challenged my world view. And also those of the magazines the interviews featured in.

Iíd also add that we arenít just discussing the feminist agenda. Most of the subjects we have discussed impacts all minorities negatively.

I think we can both agree that weíre not going to change one anotherís mind but a good debate is always fun!

alexfromlondon

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #62 on: Thursday 05-Sep-2019, 07:02* »
So hereís a real life example that may or may not concern the ďPC Gone MadĒ brigade.

We were flying back to London yesterday and my 3 year old saw 3 airline crew standing by the door as we were leaving the plane. He pointed at the man and said ďthatís the captainĒ.

My wife talked to him about it when we left the plane and said why did he think one of the women wasnít the captain - and he was dead sure - only the man could be the captain/pilot.

Where does this come from? Not us for sure...But somewhere ingrained.

It made me think about the importance to f equal representation on TV and childrenís books and that perhaps it all isnít such a trivial matter after all.  Food for thought...

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #63 on: Friday 06-Sep-2019, 06:43* »
So hereís a real life example that may or may not concern the ďPC Gone MadĒ brigade.

We were flying back to London yesterday and my 3 year old saw 3 airline crew standing by the door as we were leaving the plane. He pointed at the man and said ďthatís the captainĒ.

My wife talked to him about it when we left the plane and said why did he think one of the women wasnít the captain - and he was dead sure - only the man could be the captain/pilot.

Where does this come from? Not us for sure...But somewhere ingrained.

It made me think about the importance to f equal representation on TV and childrenís books and that perhaps it all isnít such a trivial matter after all.  Food for thought...

Equal representation is not a great idea, in my opinion. There could be many reasons for thinking the man is the pilot. Three year old kids might not be able to articulate very well that a captain has a different uniform, or that they only saw females serving drinks, or any other reason apart from gender.

A far bigger problem is automatically assuming it was gender, as opposed to appreciating that your son was right.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #64 on: Friday 06-Sep-2019, 08:56* »
Equal representation is not a great idea, in my opinion. There could be many reasons for thinking the man is the pilot. Three year old kids might not be able to articulate very well that a captain has a different uniform, or that they only saw females serving drinks, or any other reason apart from gender.

A far bigger problem is automatically assuming it was gender, as opposed to appreciating that your son was right.

Garbage. He was wrong. The man was also a flight attendant agreeing the same style of uniform as the women. It was all about gender and what has been assimilated from nursery and books. Little girls of the same age have openly said they can be nurses but not doctors. Itís the same situation.

I donít know how into childrenís literature you are but itís a big problem. Read books of 20-30 plus years ago and the everyday sexism is awful and cringe worthy. Modern day books are a lot better but itís still there. And thatís only about gender. Try race, disability etc etc.

This about kids, not adults that should know better. Society should not impose such prejudices and life limiting things in them from such an early age.

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #65 on: Friday 06-Sep-2019, 13:57* »
Garbage. He was wrong. The man was also a flight attendant agreeing the same style of uniform as the women. It was all about gender and what has been assimilated from nursery and books. Little girls of the same age have openly said they can be nurses but not doctors. Itís the same situation.

I donít know how into childrenís literature you are but itís a big problem. Read books of 20-30 plus years ago and the everyday sexism is awful and cringe worthy. Modern day books are a lot better but itís still there. And thatís only about gender. Try race, disability etc etc.

This about kids, not adults that should know better. Society should not impose such prejudices and life limiting things in them from such an early age.

Garbage? Great discussion technique.

I suppose your three year old looked you in the eye and said "pater, don't be obtuse. Of course the man is the captain, because women should know their place, and they're lucky to be allowed out to do do menial tasks. Vive le patriarchy."

Maybe your analysis itself is garbage.

Maybe your initial little anecdote is itself garbage.

We'll never know.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #66 on: Friday 06-Sep-2019, 18:06* »
You incorrectly imposed your own views and assumptions on the situation I described. Thatís the garbage.

I donít have the imagination to make such a thing up, so youíll all have to take my word that these events really have happened in the world I share with young children.

It is your choice whether or not you accept the implications of bigoted/racist/sexist representations, albeit in some cases subtle, on the outlook and behaviour of children. I see it more first hand because of my family situation, and what I see does concern me a bit. If you choose to have a different view or interpret the evidence differently, thatís fine - Iím just calling out what I see and experience, as relevant to this discussion.

Yareet

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #67 on: Saturday 07-Sep-2019, 09:58* »
You incorrectly imposed your own views and assumptions on the situation I described. Thatís the garbage.

I donít have the imagination to make such a thing up, so youíll all have to take my word that these events really have happened in the world I share with young children.

It is your choice whether or not you accept the implications of bigoted/racist/sexist representations, albeit in some cases subtle, on the outlook and behaviour of children. I see it more first hand because of my family situation, and what I see does concern me a bit. If you choose to have a different view or interpret the evidence differently, thatís fine - Iím just calling out what I see and experience, as relevant to this discussion.

Alex, in Quinksí defence, your original post didnít clarify that it was three cabin crew - just three airline crew.

I can see why somebody could assume that the man *may* be dressed differently (and therefore more obviously a pilot).

Quinky

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  • Posts: 786
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #68 on: Monday 09-Sep-2019, 14:26* »
Alex, in Quinksí defence, your original post didnít clarify that it was three cabin crew - just three airline crew.

I can see why somebody could assume that the man *may* be dressed differently (and therefore more obviously a pilot).

I always find that you can tell what type of person you're trying to have a discussion with, by howthey deal with opposing views.

There are those who read your points, may not agree with them, and go on to offer a counter-argument or alternative viewpoint; they also open one's mind to things that one might not be aware of.

Then there are those who shout "GARBAGE!!" They're the type who have socially and politically aware three year olds who can discuss ingrained concepts of gender superiority, when most three year olds are still trying to eat crayons. Allegedly.

Incidentally, I always laugh when "Garbage" (or some other such comment) is immediately followed by other "new" details that conveniently counter whatever has just been said. Something like "Garbage! My three year old happens to have studied airline uniforms since he was an embryo".

To those who believe in reincarnation, did you ever wonder what happened to Hans Christian Andersen?

Quinky

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  • Posts: 786
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #69 on: Monday 09-Sep-2019, 14:40* »
Just so Iím 100% clear, I am no advocate of quota systems or artificially altering demographics. For any role, a competent person has to be selected.

Iíve long been an advocate that you change the demographic at the top by changing it at the bottom and letting that change filter through.

I would also reiterate that any choice we make is shaped by the world we live in.

I share your belief that there are some biological reasons why certain demographics excel in certain fields (such as the fast twitch fibres helping sprinters and low oxygen levels helping distance runners). But I canít see a biological reason why men would take greater risks.

I *can* see a societal norm that men are risk takers and women are meant to be more risk averse.

Iíve read a couple of interviews with Peterson and to be frank found him abhorrent. Fully prepared to see however that thatís probably because he challenged my world view. And also those of the magazines the interviews featured in.

Iíd also add that we arenít just discussing the feminist agenda. Most of the subjects we have discussed impacts all minorities negatively.

I think we can both agree that weíre not going to change one anotherís mind but a good debate is always fun!

I don't think people should try to change the minds of others; it's better to open people's minds and give them a wider perspective, then see if new views and opinions formulate. Trying to forcefully change someone's mind never works, and usually has the opposite effect.

My mind hasn't changed, but I have gleaned some new points and views which have made me look at things in a different light. Also, we seem to agree on some fundamental points, and that's very important.

At least we didn't try to shut each other down by shouting "GARBAGE!!!"!

 

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