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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 4415 times)

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guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #150 on: Wednesday 24-Jul-2019, 16:52* »
I am really not sure whether Bojo will deliver.

The words are comforting and reassuring (what is it about the U.K. that just accepts the words of a posh old Etonian without scrutiny or challenge) but the real test is when he is pinned on the detail and logistics. Sadly, his ďplansĒ will fall down at the very first challenging hurdle, so poor is his grasp of the detail and reality of our predicament, and how dreadful he is at maintaining and building relationship with our overseasí partners.

guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #151 on: Wednesday 24-Jul-2019, 16:56* »
P.S I think the Tories should have gone for a younger, more progressive, collaborative, intellectual leader to unite the country. Boris seems to be nothing more than a more extreme divisive force than weíve had this far, akin to Trump in the USA. But I think we are more divided and complex than the USA and our issues are more challenging. I donít think that sort of figure would last as long as trump has.

guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #152 on: Saturday 03-Aug-2019, 08:05* »
Quite interesting mood shifts over the last few weeks.

Tory leadership pressing ahead with no deal prep. Whatever anyone says, no deal wonít happen. No one has the courage for it and itíll just be a catastrophe. The numbers in parliament donít stack up for it so Iím still reasonably confident that it simply wonít happen.

The ďdealĒ seems to have been ditched. Negotiations wonít be reopened and each sidesí red lines are the same. Forget it, and forget anything substantially different.

Where do we go from here now?

I think we are moving towards a collapse of government in the autumn. Then there will be another referendum with no deal vs remain on the ballot paper.

Interestingly this is what Blair predicted not so long ago...

Thoughts?

BedfordshireBoy

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #153 on: Monday 05-Aug-2019, 10:13* »
Quite a believable scenario but who knows in these strange times. I wouldn't risk any money at the bookies.

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #154 on: Thursday 08-Aug-2019, 07:58* »
I think the Boris approach is spot on. IMO the mistake that Theresa May made was to try and find a deal to keep everyone happy, and in so doing the deal presented made pretty much nobody happy.
Brexit is too divisive for any compromise. Better to satisfy the majority and allow the minority to suck it up. If that leads to an election, then the people get to vote for their MPs and hence their government; another result which the minority will have to suck up.
Second referendum? That would be a disaster, especially with an option that has already been rejected.

guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #155 on: Friday 09-Aug-2019, 20:27* »
Pound on parity with Euro today. Congratulations Brexiteers, weíve finally joined the Euro single currency. You must be proud!

*Shamelessly stolen from Twitter

#ProjectFear

guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #156 on: Sunday 11-Aug-2019, 07:56* »
I think the Boris approach is spot on. IMO the mistake that Theresa May made was to try and find a deal to keep everyone happy, and in so doing the deal presented made pretty much nobody happy.
Brexit is too divisive for any compromise. Better to satisfy the majority and allow the minority to suck it up. If that leads to an election, then the people get to vote for their MPs and hence their government; another result which the minority will have to suck up.
Second referendum? That would be a disaster, especially with an option that has already been rejected.

Thatís interesting. Actually I thought Mayís mistake was trying too hard to appease the right wing of her party and she therefore put up these incompatible and unworkable red lines. She was fixated by one issue (immigration), which in some ways is the easiest one to solve and could have been sorted within the EU.

I think if sheíd been a bit smarter, and a bit more moderate, the withdrawal agreement would have got through.

Lurching to one side or another isnít going to heal the division. Compromise and understanding is. Remainers have needed to accept the result and push, not for Remain, but for a future relationship out of the EU that would retain what they wanted and were concerned about losing outside of the EU. It can be done. Leavers need to accept that a huge % of the country is massively upset about this decision and feel that their rights, opportunities and prosperity have been taken away from them unfairly. Again, this can be dealt with, with smart leadership and intelligent thinking.

Reactionary belligerence is not going to solve this. Boris is not going to solve this. Heís a national embarrassment and the cabinet heís assembled is quite frankly scary. We need moderate, sensible, pragmatic compromise.

The way this bunch are going we will end up with a failing economy, troubles followed by a united ireland and an independent scotland. Will anyone be happy with this?


Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #157 on: Monday 12-Aug-2019, 13:11* »
Pound on parity with Euro today. Congratulations Brexiteers, weíve finally joined the Euro single currency. You must be proud!

*Shamelessly stolen from Twitter

#ProjectFear

I'd forgotten that currencies fluctuate... and that any negatives must be due to Brexit...

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #158 on: Monday 12-Aug-2019, 13:28* »
Thatís interesting. Actually I thought Mayís mistake was trying too hard to appease the right wing of her party and she therefore put up these incompatible and unworkable red lines. She was fixated by one issue (immigration), which in some ways is the easiest one to solve and could have been sorted within the EU.

I think if sheíd been a bit smarter, and a bit more moderate, the withdrawal agreement would have got through.

Lurching to one side or another isnít going to heal the division. Compromise and understanding is. Remainers have needed to accept the result and push, not for Remain, but for a future relationship out of the EU that would retain what they wanted and were concerned about losing outside of the EU. It can be done. Leavers need to accept that a huge % of the country is massively upset about this decision and feel that their rights, opportunities and prosperity have been taken away from them unfairly. Again, this can be dealt with, with smart leadership and intelligent thinking.

Reactionary belligerence is not going to solve this. Boris is not going to solve this. Heís a national embarrassment and the cabinet heís assembled is quite frankly scary. We need moderate, sensible, pragmatic compromise.

The way this bunch are going we will end up with a failing economy, troubles followed by a united ireland and an independent scotland. Will anyone be happy with this?



I fundamentally disagree on much of what you are saying here. I don't quite how the "issue of immigration" could have been easily sorted within the EU. It's not a simple issue, and whilst there is freedom of movement (in and out) it's even harder to control. I also think you take a very simplistic view of the Withdrawal Agreement, and you overlook the fact that whatever she offered up to Parliament would have been rejected by some MPs.

Saying that "Remainers have needed to accept the result" sounds wonderful, but for a huge number that just won't happen until the deal is done. When you have elected politicians whose stated aim is to overturn the result of the referendum, regardless of the voting of their electorate, you have a problem. Those people will try to thwart any deal, by whatever means possible; and to say that a huge % of the country is massively upset, how do you think the even huger % feel when they actually WON the referendum??!!

I don't know why you're embarrassed about Boris - I'm certainly not. I believe he's exactly what the country need, and is already converting people with strong rhetoric. He'll need to deliver, and thet will take time - which undoubtedly he won't be given by those who are dead set against him - but so far he's talking a good talk and has chosen a cabinet that has the determination to deliver what's expected of them.

Personally I'd say there are many more things that the country should be embarrassed about - the current opposition, the way they treat visiting dignitaries, the inconsistency in how they treat others, the treatment of returning jihadis, the appalling way in which violent crime is addressed, our pathetic justice system, the level of hypocrisy from elected representatives (on all sides), the UK media and their blatant bias... I could go on, it's a long list, and seemingly growing.

guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #159 on: Wednesday 14-Aug-2019, 13:37* »
I fundamentally disagree on much of what you are saying here. I don't quite how the "issue of immigration" could have been easily sorted within the EU. It's not a simple issue, and whilst there is freedom of movement (in and out) it's even harder to control. I also think you take a very simplistic view of the Withdrawal Agreement, and you overlook the fact that whatever she offered up to Parliament would have been rejected by some MPs.

Saying that "Remainers have needed to accept the result" sounds wonderful, but for a huge number that just won't happen until the deal is done. When you have elected politicians whose stated aim is to overturn the result of the referendum, regardless of the voting of their electorate, you have a problem. Those people will try to thwart any deal, by whatever means possible; and to say that a huge % of the country is massively upset, how do you think the even huger % feel when they actually WON the referendum??!!

I don't know why you're embarrassed about Boris - I'm certainly not. I believe he's exactly what the country need, and is already converting people with strong rhetoric. He'll need to deliver, and thet will take time - which undoubtedly he won't be given by those who are dead set against him - but so far he's talking a good talk and has chosen a cabinet that has the determination to deliver what's expected of them.

Personally I'd say there are many more things that the country should be embarrassed about - the current opposition, the way they treat visiting dignitaries, the inconsistency in how they treat others, the treatment of returning jihadis, the appalling way in which violent crime is addressed, our pathetic justice system, the level of hypocrisy from elected representatives (on all sides), the UK media and their blatant bias... I could go on, it's a long list, and seemingly growing.

Boris's quotes and comments display an incredibly lack of tact and sensitivity.  Almost verging on Prince Phillip standards.  It's a shameful reflection on Britain as a modern nation and the comments are a relic of another era.

So...whilst the referendum needs to be respected, why should it be done in a way that violates the UK's existing obligations under international treaties, in particular the Good Friday agreement.

What do you have to stay to Scotland, who voted for Remain, and will now push for another independence referendum?  Are you happy with pushing ahead with your extreme form of Brexit if it means the UK will break up?

What about Ireland?  Whilst there may be longer term solutions for the border on the horizon, what do you propose doing on 1st November?

Boris hasn't got a clue.  It's all rhetoric that'll be used to blame others when it all goes wrong.

None of the infrastructure required for no-deal can possibly be ready in time for 31st October.

The withdrawal agreement won't be amended and won't be accepted for the millionth time.  No deal is not physically possible to implement.  What is the solution?

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #160 on: Wednesday 14-Aug-2019, 16:28* »
Boris's quotes and comments display an incredibly lack of tact and sensitivity.  Almost verging on Prince Phillip standards.  It's a shameful reflection on Britain as a modern nation and the comments are a relic of another era.

So...whilst the referendum needs to be respected, why should it be done in a way that violates the UK's existing obligations under international treaties, in particular the Good Friday agreement.

What do you have to stay to Scotland, who voted for Remain, and will now push for another independence referendum?  Are you happy with pushing ahead with your extreme form of Brexit if it means the UK will break up?

What about Ireland?  Whilst there may be longer term solutions for the border on the horizon, what do you propose doing on 1st November?

Boris hasn't got a clue.  It's all rhetoric that'll be used to blame others when it all goes wrong.

None of the infrastructure required for no-deal can possibly be ready in time for 31st October.

The withdrawal agreement won't be amended and won't be accepted for the millionth time.  No deal is not physically possible to implement.  What is the solution?

None of this is in my remit. I don't know the answers, but that doesn't mean I don't believe that the problems cannot be solved. I might as well ask you what you're doing to cure cancer, or ease traffic congestion.

If you find Boris's comments offensive, it suggests to me that you're a little thin-skinned. Tact and sensitivity are nice concepts, but in the real world they tend to slow things down, rather than get the job done.

Why should any obligations be violated? Why should the UK break up? Scotland voted remain, but they are part of a bigger entity that voted to leave. Unfortunately, Sturgeon can throw her toys out of her pram and threaten a referendum as much as she likes - they had one, and by voting to stay in the club, they run with the club decisions. Tails don't wag dogs.

There are many experts who say that a technological solution to the Irish border is not impossible.I personally don't have to do anything on 1st November.

You seem very confident of what's not possible. I disagree.I don't have the answers that you want, but I suspect that you wouldn't believe anyone who does. Brexit is a bitter pill to swallow, for the people who didn't want it. But perhaps if they accepted the reality, and helped to work towards a better outcome instead of trying to subvert it, we might be able to move forwards. Perhaps that is the solution.

Everyoneís a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #161 on: Thursday 15-Aug-2019, 02:12* »
You seem very confident of what's not possible. I disagree.I don't have the answers that you want, but I suspect that you wouldn't believe anyone who does. Brexit is a bitter pill to swallow, for the people who didn't want it. But perhaps if they accepted the reality, and helped to work towards a better outcome instead of trying to subvert it, we might be able to move forwards. Perhaps that is the solution.


Exactly Quinky 👏🏽
Togetherness, thick skin, optimism, belief in our country and itís people and our businesses. This whole ďI wonít believe it til I see itĒ negative, bitter attitude and sour way thinking paired with a lack of belief some people have in ourselves and our country going forward really grinds my gears.

The thing I often find with this is that a certain group of negative Remainers who donít want to accept the result is this: they were quick to advocate the idea of ďSay no to leaving Europe, we need to be joint at the hip in every way and show togetherness otherwise the world will crumbleĒ. Now, that way of thinking is all well and good, yet once the result concluded to Leave it was a big shame that the togetherness spirit they were promoting before the vote canít be applied going forward into Leaving. Where did the togetherness go to then in regards to ourselves and our country for the benefit of all going forward? Instead of carrying on with that spirit, the certain group of bitter Remainers all of a sudden want to drop that way of thinking and divide the U.K. and itís people further by hijacking everything possible to do with Leave. Sorry but I donít buy it. For example if I genuinely wanted more than anything to Remain and nattered on about togetherness in doing so, I would also honour those same values of Togetherness in relation to Leaving (instead dropping the whole Togetherness spiel because the vote didnít go the way I wanted it to). Itís not a good look and it really decloaks the disguise of the nicey nice teddy bear picknick way of thinking when things donít go the way they want.

I have a distant memory of a saying many of us used to love to bellow out associate it with Britishness. What was it again? Oh there it is....
ďKeep Calm and Carry OnĒ
We used to sell that on T-shirts to adverts, china mugs to posters on walls. We used to sell it to tourists visiting us; they must think we are crazy as a box of frogs looking at us now as many of us have clearly forgotten it and donít seem to promote that great saying we used to be so proud of. Where the heck did that british optimism go.


I would like to state that I donít mean to provoke anyone by saying this, but it has to be said because itís true. True colours are true colours and no matter what way you would like the world to be run, if you promote principles then apply the same principles to either way things go. Acting like salty football supporters after a loss, turning on their own team and giving lip to the opposition supporters isnít the way forward, acting like inclusive rugby supporters mixing with the opposition regardless of a win or loss, shaking hands, sharing drinks and toasting to the future for both teams is the way to go about it. Again not looking for an argument, just puzzled.
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guest257

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #162 on: Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 08:50* »
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? Youíve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. Thatís not my country and I want it back.

The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to repair now.

Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry, theyíve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess. Iím longing for the moment that the penny drops, these fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they havenít been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises theyíve made in relation to Brexit.

We shall see what happens on 31 October.

Everyoneís a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #163 on: Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 09:54* »
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? Youíve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. Thatís not my country and I want it back.

The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to repair now.

Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry, theyíve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess. Iím longing for the moment that the penny drops, these fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they havenít been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises theyíve made in relation to Brexit.

We shall see what happens on 31 October.

You assume too much. Settle down and donít believe what the biased BBC tells you and all of the fat cat CEOís of London who only care about their own pockets being hit and not yours. Because itís their personal bonus pockets that will get hit mostly, not yours.
Donít put all leavers in the same basket. Itís rude, obnoxious and darn right childish. I donít put all the remainers in one basket now do I? Itís not the right wing that has driven this, itís the oppressive left wing and their lack of respect to democracy that has done this. With respect

Quinky

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #164 on: Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 10:04* »
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? Youíve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. Thatís not my country and I want it back.

The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to repair now.

Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry, theyíve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess. Iím longing for the moment that the penny drops, these fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they havenít been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises theyíve made in relation to Brexit.

We shall see what happens on 31 October.

I see. This suggests that you are typically a part of the problem.

Let's hypothesise here. If we had a general election and, heaven forbid, Labour got into power by a narrow margin. Imagine, say, 48% of the populace "refusing to be a part of" a country led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al, then rebelling against anything that the elected government tried to do.

Can you see that going well? Not quite democracy, is it?

 

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