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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 2497 times)

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deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Brexit
« on: Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 10:32* »
Knock yerselves out kids....

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RodneyRegis

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 10:55* »
Ha ha we wun

BedfordshireBoy

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 13:32* »

TomBuckQuin

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 19:19* »
Think I'll just leave this here: https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Assuming anyone actually takes the time to educate themselves, you'd think the contents of this link would mean a stop to uninformed, naive Remainer-bashing and a return to some sort of pragmatic debate. But for some reason I predict a slightly different response...

Still, this whole Brexit thing is good fun isn't it? ;D
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deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #4 on: Friday 26-Oct-2018, 10:35* »
Well from what I can make of it, that was quite biased to the Remainers side of things although it does make some good points. I seriously hope that all these shark infested "Treaties" are a little easier to renegotiate than is being mooted. After all, it is a Treaty conversion not a completely fresh start.

I did vote in the referendum and see no reason to have changed my mind either way.

alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #5 on: Friday 26-Oct-2018, 12:52* »
Well from what I can make of it, that was quite biased to the Remainers side of things although it does make some good points. I seriously hope that all these shark infested "Treaties" are a little easier to renegotiate than is being mooted. After all, it is a Treaty conversion not a completely fresh start.

I did vote in the referendum and see no reason to have changed my mind either way.

I voted Remain and would do so again.  But that's not because of any particular love for the EU.  In fact, the EU itself is a pretty grotesque beast of an organisation, and the Brussels elite are well out of touch with reality - it really is another world over there.  The days of big-man politics are over.  I'm actually naturally Eurosceptic and have always been massively against our possible joining of the Euro.

But I voted Remain because the ideas proposed by the Leave campaign, IMO, were low calibre, reactionary, and offered no real positive and realistic vision of an alternative.  Our press has blamed the EU for so many of our self inflicted ills.  Issues now require global co-operation and work - cutting ourselves off from such an organisation seemed folly to me.  Leave politicians are protest politicians - but like the Greens and others, it's far easier to campaign for change o specific areas, but if/when given power and authority to implement them they wouldn't be able to do the first thing.

I think a no-deal Brexit would be absolutely bonkers.  It is the most stupid proposition - you simply cannot just cut off 40 years of co-operation and regulatory and legal alignment like that without killing the patient.

What is the answer then?  Call it off? - I can't see that working.  Keep delaying? - that won't wash either.

Norway is probably the only practical solution to not disrupt trade/jobs/flights/NI border.  Would that appease the Brexit ultras - probably not?  But it's probably the only workable compromise in the timeframe.

Norway, or Remain?  What is it going to be?

P.S - as an aside I find it deeply amusing that Ireland, for so long the oppressed neighbour, is holding all the cards here.  The NI border situation is complex and has always been the spanner in the works.  British Imperialism - this one is for you.




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Brown Bottle

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6 on: Friday 26-Oct-2018, 15:25* »
Quote
I seriously hope that all these shark infested "Treaties" are a little easier to renegotiate than is being mooted. After all, it is a Treaty conversion not a completely fresh start.

I think the problem is the existing treaties were negotiated by the EU whereas the new ones will have to be negotiated by the UK alone with countries who still have a treaty with the EU. I don't think we'll be in much of a position to play hardball.
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deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 28-Oct-2018, 09:57* »
I do think we underestimate the power of our own economy in all this. We import quite a lot into our wealthy consumer society and this factor alone is enough to make people want to sit down and talk. It is not entirely a one way street.

Brown Bottle

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #8 on: Monday 29-Oct-2018, 11:15* »
So negotiating on our own we are stronger than with the other 27 EU member states?
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alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #9 on: Monday 29-Oct-2018, 18:12* »
I find it hard to see any tangible economic benefit from any form of Brexit. Every time I ask how things will be better the answer is either fantasy or simply not economically based. IMO the problems identified simply arenít caused by the EU, could have been addressed whilst part of the EU, and certainly wonít be dealt with any differently/more easily post Brexit.

Iíve struggled to accept that peopleís desire for Brexit is based on something more than economics. And that they are prepared to accept short term pain for something longer term. To me that makes no sense, looking at the facts.

Iíd simply love to hear a proper rational argument for Brexit - how it will make us all more prosperous, with a brighter future than we have now. I find it incredibly tragic that no-one is able to articulate this better. If they did, and I caveat this by saying it must be reality based, theyíd be Prime Minister. The country needs it.
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TomBuckQuin

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #10 on: Monday 29-Oct-2018, 22:25* »
Basically, BB's post + alexfromlondon's post = my thoughts. My main issue is that we are OVER-estimating our position. We aren't the empire anymore (thank whatever god you want). And guess what, maybe we do have a superior economy vs individual EU countries (aside from Germany and France maybe) but we don't have a superior economy to the lot of them combined. Who really thinks we do? Seriously? That's the rhetoric - it's actually nuts. Our bargaining position is weak - I'd love Everyone's a Quinner to convince us otherwise. Disliking our posts is one thing but if your only reason for Brexit is "sovereignty" or "we voted on something 2 years ago therefore it doesn't matter if something completely different is actually going to happen" then I'm none the wiser. So help us. What is this all about? Really.

Sovereignty doesn't do it for me personally because do you genuinely, REALLY think anything will actually change for the better with the numpties we have running this country? And that's completely ignoring the benefits we get from the EU... Oh, but it's better to ignore those - doesn't fit the brexiteer argument that we actually gain economically from the EU, does it?

If it's immigration then at least have the balls to say so. I'm sorry but I haven't been convinced it's anything else. Personally, I'd love to think that if I wanted to move to any other landmass in the world then I'd be welcomed like a fellow human being, but maybe that's too much to ask. Such a sad world we live in. The more I live, the more I think humans (and particularly us white people - yup, that's what I said, deal with it) are a pathetic bunch. It is about "the other" when you boil it all down. For me, anyway. You won't convince me otherwise just by crying "just because we're saying this doesn't mean we're racist".

The funniest part is I used to consider myself patriotic when I was a kid - because I'd go to Twickenham and roar my little heart out as Rory Underwood rocketed down the touch line. That's what I thought patriotism was all about - was my only frame of reference. Now it's harder to feel that. Which is quite sad really.

For some context:

Yup, I'm a millennial. I've also been disabled since birth - have a rare neuromuscular condition. Have never walked, have full body muscle weakness. I rely on personal care assistants to help me do the basics day-to-day. Guess what? Haven't found a single British chap who wants to wipe my bum on the daily. Currently employ 3 Hungarian guys. Who knows how this will affect that - but that's not your worry, it's mine. Except I didn't vote for this. Hence I'm angry - that other people have put me being able to get out of bed in the morning in jeopardy because they don't like Polish people living nearby. Or people with a different skin colour. Maybe not you reading this - maybe you really did vote for other genuine reasons - but I knew a lot of people who voted that way for that reason. "Knew" because I no longer want to know a single thing about them. Disgusting as far as I'm concerned - and not just because it affects me. The reality seems to be that it's going to affect far more people than anyone realises.

And "disgusting" why? Because my girlfriend, who is black (and was born here and considers herself British in every sense) has been treated to some seriously threatening abuse and behaviour ever since this rise in right/alt-right rhetoric. And yes, I do consider Brexit to be simultaneously a symptom and a cause of that fever. There's no plausible way you can deny that - that's utter ignorance.

So when anyone talks about being patriotic I just can't get behind it. What is there to be patriotic about? I'll cheer on the England rugby team but I realise now that that has nothing to do with patriotism in the true sense of the word.

And then there's the fact that Brexit is a mess anyway - so whatever you voted for, whichever side you're on, you're not getting it. None of us are happy, has anyone noticed that?

Baffling.
« Last Edit: Monday 29-Oct-2018, 22:36* by TomBuckQuin »

Everyoneís a Quinner

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 30-Oct-2018, 00:44* »
Basically, BB's post + alexfromlondon's post = my thoughts. My main issue is that we are OVER-estimating our position. We aren't the empire anymore (thank whatever god you want). And guess what, maybe we do have a superior economy vs individual EU countries (aside from Germany and France maybe) but we don't have a superior economy to the lot of them combined. Who really thinks we do? Seriously? That's the rhetoric - it's actually nuts. Our bargaining position is weak - I'd love Everyone's a Quinner to convince us otherwise. Disliking our posts is one thing but if your only reason for Brexit is "sovereignty" or "we voted on something 2 years ago therefore it doesn't matter if something completely different is actually going to happen" then I'm none the wiser. So help us. What is this all about? Really.

Sovereignty doesn't do it for me personally because do you genuinely, REALLY think anything will actually change for the better with the numpties we have running this country? And that's completely ignoring the benefits we get from the EU... Oh, but it's better to ignore those - doesn't fit the brexiteer argument that we actually gain economically from the EU, does it?

If it's immigration then at least have the balls to say so. I'm sorry but I haven't been convinced it's anything else. Personally, I'd love to think that if I wanted to move to any other landmass in the world then I'd be welcomed like a fellow human being, but maybe that's too much to ask. Such a sad world we live in. The more I live, the more I think humans (and particularly us white people - yup, that's what I said, deal with it) are a pathetic bunch. It is about "the other" when you boil it all down. For me, anyway. You won't convince me otherwise just by crying "just because we're saying this doesn't mean we're racist".

The funniest part is I used to consider myself patriotic when I was a kid - because I'd go to Twickenham and roar my little heart out as Rory Underwood rocketed down the touch line. That's what I thought patriotism was all about - was my only frame of reference. Now it's harder to feel that. Which is quite sad really.

For some context:

Yup, I'm a millennial. I've also been disabled since birth - have a rare neuromuscular condition. Have never walked, have full body muscle weakness. I rely on personal care assistants to help me do the basics day-to-day. Guess what? Haven't found a single British chap who wants to wipe my bum on the daily. Currently employ 3 Hungarian guys. Who knows how this will affect that - but that's not your worry, it's mine. Except I didn't vote for this. Hence I'm angry - that other people have put me being able to get out of bed in the morning in jeopardy because they don't like Polish people living nearby. Or people with a different skin colour. Maybe not you reading this - maybe you really did vote for other genuine reasons - but I knew a lot of people who voted that way for that reason. "Knew" because I no longer want to know a single thing about them. Disgusting as far as I'm concerned - and not just because it affects me. The reality seems to be that it's going to affect far more people than anyone realises.

And "disgusting" why? Because my girlfriend, who is black (and was born here and considers herself British in every sense) has been treated to some seriously threatening abuse and behaviour ever since this rise in right/alt-right rhetoric. And yes, I do consider Brexit to be simultaneously a symptom and a cause of that fever. There's no plausible way you can deny that - that's utter ignorance.

So when anyone talks about being patriotic I just can't get behind it. What is there to be patriotic about? I'll cheer on the England rugby team but I realise now that that has nothing to do with patriotism in the true sense of the word.

And then there's the fact that Brexit is a mess anyway - so whatever you voted for, whichever side you're on, you're not getting it. None of us are happy, has anyone noticed that?

Baffling.

TomBuckQuin and others it may concern.

Iím from the 1990ís and come in peace.
I would love to sit here on my sofa and explain to you what this is all about, by this I am assuming you mean the mess our PM and her aides are conjuring? The honest fact is I donít know, much like you, what is going on at the moment because of the atrocities of how this is being handled by BOTH sides. I voted to leave for a great many reasons, not that I have to explain myself to you but to name a few:


General principals and trade:
I am sick to death of our country being a big contributor to the EU in many ways, and yet when big decisions are made we aren't given our fair input into the decision making process for example laws, taxes, joint ventures, trade, immigration, economics and more. We are taken for fools with big money pockets to burn. We are not taken as we should be, a big contributor to the EU. You look even now and our country and our PM along with her team arenít respected by the other EU negotiating team. The Irish border is used as a bully boy European barganing tool; to which, a wise Irishman I know of put it perfectly regarding the Irish Border. Southern Ireland are part of the EU, Northern Ireland are going to be leaving, BUT they do not want a hard border. A big part of this is working out taxes on goods going from one part of Ireland to the other. Hereís an example, they already have trade agreements and already work out taxes quite easily. Why, for example: Guinness Beer. Itís brewed in the South of Ireland (EU for those asking) then itís transported over the boarder to Northern Ireland (UK for those asking) where it is both bottled, then transported back to the South of Ireland and then guess what: exported GLOBALLY. And the lorryís between these two parts of Europe cross freely. Point being theyíve worked out very easily the right tax/procedures, why does this now have to be different and become a big issue and a bully boy bargaining tool by the EU.

The whole original point of the EU was to help trade between European nations become much easier but in the end its evolved to quite the opposite and much more, becoming more controlling (even to the point where they now want an European Army Force, for what reason one rightly asks).

Immigration: Itís not stopping people coming into this country, itís about opening up the opportunities to everyone worldwide, giving everyone an equal opportunity in achieving things in our country instead of it mainly being about giving preference to Europeans (who I donít have a problem with). Itís also about having better control of immigration, controlling it like Australia does; having people come over who can work and have a profession, and having a better system which puts less pressure on services such as social benefits and housing.

When you say we arenít the empire anymore, I agree nor would I like to be part of one, which my friend is why I donít like where the EU is going. Itís Europe these days which is becoming and acting more of an empire than we do.

I feel some Remainers cry out for unity (I donít blame them) not fully understanding that leaving the EU has nothing to do with getting along just swell with our neighbours. We can all still play together, just work in different offices. Some Remainers say that by leaving the EU we canít get along anymore. Why?! We can all get along, we donít have to be making daisy chains to do so. We have the whole world to be friends and trade with. Why oh why is it just restricted to the EU and if we leave it will incur doom to us all!!! It wonít!!!!! The world is our oyster.

To be perfectly honest with you, like I have said before it is a great shame that in the case of Brexit, Parties and MPs from different Parties canít come together at one round table, share their good ideas, feed off of the people with good ideas and then go about their separate lives afterward so should they wish. Like him or loath him, people like Farage, Rees-Mog etc: you donít have to like someone to agree with someone or take advice from them. They have sometimes good ideas and itís a shame these people or at least their opinions arenít being listened to or considered by PM and the team in charge of Brexit at the moment because they are too worried about what people would think of them for talking cross-party interest wise.

You my friend I am afraid, are portraying yourself as a bit hypocritical by shooting at the hip at me and others who voted leave, branding us as part of the blame in the rise of ďright/alt-rightĒ etc when you donít even know me/us, then stand there and blame all of the disgusting and atrocious behaviour you and your girlfriend have been dealt with on ďpeople who voted to leaveĒ. I donít condone that behaviour one bit and I have many close Polynesian, Black, Asian, American, Caribbean, Canadian, South African and European (YES, European) friends who would back that up. Just because I voted to leave doesnít mean you can tarnish me or others with that brush. I am sure there are people out there who are racist and voted Remain too. There are many forms of racism and I take kindly to none. I am sorry to hear you have been subject to the vile behaviour that is racism, I too have been subjected to racism a few times myself growing up. Being someone who voted to Leave doesnít mean I can be stereotyped and labelled as something Iím not. TomBuckQuin you and your girlfriend have my full sincere thoughts and support and itís not nice to hear of this dispicable behaviour. I stand in unison with any other being in defending each other from that travesty.

Please understand that on both sides of the referendum vote fence, there are many types of Leavers and Remainers with different views and ideas and visions of the future. I am merely just one of them, these views are my own and I respect everyoneís opinion. At the end of the day I just want to have a better Britain and make things better for us in our little cluster of island and parts of the country that form the UK. I donít like to be stereotyped as Iím sure you can appreciate. Please letís try to understand that everyone is different and that you/we canít judge a book by whatís written on the cover. We canít judge, mock or label a human being by voting to Leave or Remain. It doesnít promote the unity people wish for and preach for by doing so.

I come in peace and leave in such manor.

I hope this gives you an insight into why I voted this way, and again I am sorry if I offend anyone. I certainly donít wish to do so. I write this in a calm tone and please portray it as such.

We are all Harlequin



« Last Edit: Tuesday 30-Oct-2018, 12:23* by Everyoneís a Quinner »

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 30-Oct-2018, 09:06* »
COYQ!
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alexfromlondon

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 01-Nov-2018, 16:52* »
More twists and turns. Aaron Banks today....

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #14 on: Friday 02-Nov-2018, 09:45* »
What'd he say?

 

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