+- +-

+-Newcomers Start Here

+-Harlequins/Rugby Links


+-Articles


Author Topic: Equality Issues  (Read 849 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Yareet

  • Academy Player
  • Posts: 320
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 25-Jun-2019, 18:44* »
Oh let's see... Experience, ability, potential, proven results, aptitude, qualifications...

Tell me, how does being female make anyone necessarily the best person for a job?

The gender pay gap is based upon salary and gender, nothing else. In the real world, there are other factors taken into account when calculating remuneration.

But if you want to be right on and PC, don't complain if you're passed over for a promotion, in favour of a less capable female. Got to keep those numbers up, eh?

Nobody has said that being female has made somebody the best person for the job. But how can it possibly be correct that only 6 of the FTSE 100 have female CEOs? Are there really 15 times as many qualified men as women? Or could it be that being a man has historically been seen as being the best person for the job? What’s the justification for that?

Why are men’s earnings 8% higher than women’s one year after graduation? That’s not aptitude or experience. That’s partly because boys are more likely to be interested in higher paying careers like medicine. But why is that happening and why should it?

I could go on but the pay gap is very real and just symptomatic of a number of societal biases.

Oh and I won’t get passed over. I own the business.

Quinky

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 25-Jun-2019, 18:51* »
I also own my business. I guess the difference is that you think gender is relevant to pay. It isn't.

I don't care what's happened historically, or what conclusions you draw from limited data. I can't change either.

Promotion of women for the sake of numbers is discrimination against men. I don't care if 1% or 99% of CEOs are male or female. It should be the best person who gets the job.

As for men pursuing higher paid carers, so what? Last time I checked, people were free to choose their own career. If that causes pay imbalance because women lean towards lower paid careers, so be it.

Social engineering never works.
Agree Agree x 2 View List

Quinten Poulsen

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 860
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 25-Jun-2019, 19:33* »
Why are men's earnings for part time work 5% lower than women's? Why is there no gender pay gap for people aged between around 20 and 40? Why do people who obsess about the gender pay gap only ever complain about the low number of female CEOs and not the low number of female sewage workers? Why does the gender hours gap never get a mention? And more specifically, why doesn't your industry focus on promoting the best qualified people regardless of their genitalia?
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Yareet

  • Academy Player
  • Posts: 320
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 25-Jun-2019, 20:11* »
To be clear, I haven’t said that women should be promoted because of their gender. I would say that if gender is irrelevant (as we all seem to agree), the gender ratio at the entry level should be continued throughout the industry. If it isn’t, there is an issue.

And there is plenty of evidence that the gap starts from early in careers (the 20-25 year olds) and grows.

Yes, people can chose their own career but we are much more likely to copy what we have already seen. If people still look at little girls as future nurses and little boys as future doctors, that becomes the norm. So as they grow up, that’s what they aim for.

Which is the same reason we don’t see many female sewage workers.

Quinten Poulsen

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 860
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 25-Jun-2019, 20:25* »
Quote
the gender ratio at the entry level should be continued throughout the industry.

Why?

Quinky

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 25-Jun-2019, 22:57* »
To be clear, I haven’t said that women should be promoted because of their gender. I would say that if gender is irrelevant (as we all seem to agree), the gender ratio at the entry level should be continued throughout the industry. If it isn’t, there is an issue.

And there is plenty of evidence that the gap starts from early in careers (the 20-25 year olds) and grows.

Yes, people can chose their own career but we are much more likely to copy what we have already seen. If people still look at little girls as future nurses and little boys as future doctors, that becomes the norm. So as they grow up, that’s what they aim for.

Which is the same reason we don’t see many female sewage workers.

Or we could stop trying to steer people into career directions. Look at Sweden, recognised as possibly the best country in the world world for equality. Given the choice, most people choosing a career in engineering are male, whilst those choosing nursing are predominantly female. It's the result of free choice.

Ironically my business is in an industry with almost 70%of females. There are campaigns and initiatives to get more females at board level, but no initiatives to get more men into the industry.

I guess equality is selective.


dr_miles

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 09:40* »
Or we could stop trying to steer people into career directions. Look at Sweden, recognised as possibly the best country in the world world for equality. Given the choice, most people choosing a career in engineering are male, whilst those choosing nursing are predominantly female. It's the result of free choice.

Ironically my business is in an industry with almost 70%of females. There are campaigns and initiatives to get more females at board level, but no initiatives to get more men into the industry.

I guess equality is selective.

Do you accept that all nurses with the same qualifications, experience and abilities should be paid the same regardless of gender, and that all engineers with the same qualifications, experience and abilities should be paid the same regardless of gender?

Fearless Fred

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 10:34* »
I think this has strayed far off topic into something that should really be on the "Everything not rugby related" board. Can I suggest that this discussion is taken over there?

Yareet

  • Academy Player
  • Posts: 320
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 10:37* »
Why?

Really? You need me to explain this to you?

OK, if there is no bias then everyone has an equal chance of progression - depending purely on their individual talents and qualities. If there is a skew towards one demographic as you rise through the ranks, that either shows that that demographic is inherently better suited to more senior roles or there is a bias.

If you don't believe there is a bias, what is it about men that makes them more suited to being CEOs? Or bankers? Or sewage workers?

deadlyfrom5yardsout

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1918
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 10:39* »
On the point of social conditioning directing youngsters into predictable pathways I can certainly say from personal experience that this is less so these days. I have 3 daughters, a Doctor, an MD of a £40m gastro pub business and a Biologist currently working for the Environment Agency out in the field (quite literally).

All 3 of them did the little girl things like My Little Pony and Ballet lessons etc but through their own influences and choices have ended up in careers that may have been considered more suitable for men in days of yore.

I still seem to be the one paying for family meals though :(


Sorry Fred you are right of course but you posted that while I was decomposing.....
« Last Edit: Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 10:42* by deadlyfrom5yardsout »

Quinten Poulsen

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 860
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 11:41* »
Yareet, you haven't taken personal choices into account in your reply.

Quinky

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 27-Jun-2019, 23:22* »
Do you accept that all nurses with the same qualifications, experience and abilities should be paid the same regardless of gender, and that all engineers with the same qualifications, experience and abilities should be paid the same regardless of gender?

I think that of all the factors you mention, gender is the only one that shouldn't be considered when deciding upon remuneration.

guest257

  • Guest
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #27 on: Friday 05-Jul-2019, 15:27* »
There are bigger picture issue here that need to be considered.

In many ways the world of work, and society, is simply more geared up for the benefit of men. The system doesn’t deal well enough with women (or men in fact) who need or want to take time away from their careers to have a family, have other responsibilities etc etc

This is changing, but it’s very slow. Because of society’s perception of the role of the woman being the primary care giver for children (even in households where roles are more equal), they often have to work harder than men for promotions when they do return to work, or struggle to keep up as there are greater home demands on them than for a corresponding man.

Secondly, women often get knocked down a lot when displaying more typically “masculine” and aggressive tactics at work in trying to progress. If men display those characteristics they are ambitious, bold, daring. Women are often perceived as vulgar and are bound by the requirement that certain sections of society need them to be “nurturing” “maternal” “caring” etc in all they do. I’ve seen good and talented women effectively bullied out of senior positions - an equivalent man would not get treated that way.

I don’t have any quick answers and we are in the start of a journey here that we need to go on. Gender pay gap is part of that as it shows the symptom of the problem so that the real issues can start to be addressed.

I get continually exasperated by those calling out this sort of thing as being PC gone mad, or snowflakey, as I suspect those doing so are middle aged white men who have had the benefit of a society geared up for their own success and have never had to experience any of the difficult prejudices that are exhibited against women (or in fact against minorities), nor have had to be primary care giver for children or others and therefore have not had to face up to the very real and difficult choices that others have to.

This is so complex and there is a lot to say on it. I will try and be more succinct in any further contributions!

Quinky

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 06-Jul-2019, 18:01* »
There are bigger picture issue here that need to be considered.

In many ways the world of work, and society, is simply more geared up for the benefit of men. The system doesn’t deal well enough with women (or men in fact) who need or want to take time away from their careers to have a family, have other responsibilities etc etc

This is changing, but it’s very slow. Because of society’s perception of the role of the woman being the primary care giver for children (even in households where roles are more equal), they often have to work harder than men for promotions when they do return to work, or struggle to keep up as there are greater home demands on them than for a corresponding man.

Secondly, women often get knocked down a lot when displaying more typically “masculine” and aggressive tactics at work in trying to progress. If men display those characteristics they are ambitious, bold, daring. Women are often perceived as vulgar and are bound by the requirement that certain sections of society need them to be “nurturing” “maternal” “caring” etc in all they do. I’ve seen good and talented women effectively bullied out of senior positions - an equivalent man would not get treated that way.

I don’t have any quick answers and we are in the start of a journey here that we need to go on. Gender pay gap is part of that as it shows the symptom of the problem so that the real issues can start to be addressed.

I get continually exasperated by those calling out this sort of thing as being PC gone mad, or snowflakey, as I suspect those doing so are middle aged white men who have had the benefit of a society geared up for their own success and have never had to experience any of the difficult prejudices that are exhibited against women (or in fact against minorities), nor have had to be primary care giver for children or others and therefore have not had to face up to the very real and difficult choices that others have to.

This is so complex and there is a lot to say on it. I will try and be more succinct in any further contributions!


So much tosh in there, it's hard to know where to begin!

But just one point will do for starters:

Quote
the world of work, and society, is simply more geared up for the benefit of men

That would explain why many more men than women die in wars, in coal mines, and are victims of suicide. Why traditionally women retire earlier.  Why women are the recipients of subtle undertones of benefit in everyday life - "give up your seat for a lady", "ladies first", "half price drinks for ladies". Shorter prison sentences than males for identical crimes.  I learned last week that the goals at the women's football world cup are smaller than men's! The vast majority of homeless and rough sleepers are male.

What about the "middle aged white men" who haven't had "the benefit of a society geared up for their own success"? The ones who do jobs that you rarely, if ever, see a woman doing, like street sweeper or coal miner. Perhaps those men are also victims of courts who overwhelmingly award custody of children to the mother in the case of a breakup. Or maybe they are the men who have been falsely accused of ****, whose names have been released, but who were subsequently exonerated... all the while the accuser remains unnamed.

It's funny how the quest for "equality" is so selective.

dr_miles

  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 123
Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #29 on: Friday 12-Jul-2019, 15:48* »
That would explain why many more men than women die in wars

Until recently, women were prevented from serving in the military front line. Possibly there is a connection.

 

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Site Statistics

Members
Total Members: 780
Latest: QuinsFan
New This Month: 2
New This Week: 1
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 41225
Total Topics: 2456
Most Online Today: 132
Most Online Ever: 705
(Monday 02-Dec-2019, 13:56*)
Users Online
Members: 7
Guests: 59
Total: 66