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Author Topic: Equality Issues  (Read 1362 times)

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Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 13-Jul-2019, 09:54* »
Until recently, women were prevented from serving in the military front line. Possibly there is a connection.

The end result is that more men die as a result of wars. Perhaps that's a more relevant way of stating the imbalance.
But if my other points stand up to scrutiny, it suggests that it's not such a male favoured world after all.

guest257

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 13-Jul-2019, 12:01* »
Surely the military, and military violence, only really exists because of male dominance throughout history? Itís a poor example in any discussion over equality.

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 25-Jul-2019, 08:10* »
Surely the military, and military violence, only really exists because of male dominance throughout history? Itís a poor example in any discussion over equality.

Have there been female heads of state of countries at a time when they went to war?

Male dominance through history leads to war... An interesting twist, but utterly ridiculous IMO.

Nice that you appear to accept my other examples though.

marlowish

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 30-Jul-2019, 12:02* »
Surely the military, and military violence, only really exists because of male dominance throughout history? Itís a poor example in any discussion over equality.

Boadicea like a scrap !

marlowish

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 30-Jul-2019, 12:05* »
Really? You need me to explain this to you?

OK, if there is no bias then everyone has an equal chance of progression - depending purely on their individual talents and qualities. If there is a skew towards one demographic as you rise through the ranks, that either shows that that demographic is inherently better suited to more senior roles or there is a bias.

If you don't believe there is a bias, what is it about men that makes them more suited to being CEOs? Or bankers? Or sewage workers?

I will never adhere to any quotas.  I own my own company I have always and will always employ the best person for the job. 
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Gone

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 30-Jul-2019, 12:36* »
It's worth trying again so I'll try.

The gender pay gap has zero to do with paying women a different amount for doing the same job as men - that's illegal already.

The gender pay gap isn't anything to do with women-only shortlists.

The gender pay gap is about opening up career pathways that previously haven't been open to women, have been discouraged for women, women haven't thought about -- for lots and lots of different reasons. Cultural, historical, self-limitation, external limitation, bias, or just choice.

If you think the gender pay gap means you can't pay a man more than a woman. You're wrong.
If you think the gender pay gap means you can't discriminate against women, or black people, or gay people - you're wrong. That's what long-standing legislation does.
If you think the gender pay gap is an argument for choosing someone less capable to do a job, you're also wrong.

Hope that helps.

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday 30-Jul-2019, 12:40* »
Really? You need me to explain this to you?

OK, if there is no bias then everyone has an equal chance of progression - depending purely on their individual talents and qualities. If there is a skew towards one demographic as you rise through the ranks, that either shows that that demographic is inherently better suited to more senior roles or there is a bias.

If you don't believe there is a bias, what is it about men that makes them more suited to being CEOs? Or bankers? Or sewage workers?


Still waiting...

By the way, you missed out on one other factor - choice. People don't "choose" to become a CEO. They choose to aim to become a CEO, which requires a lot of hard work, sacrifice, selfishness and aptitude. Studies show that females in general are less selfish than men when it come to career matters. Plus of course many women choose to break their career to have children; it's harsh, but naturally any career break of that magnitude will negatively impact on a career path. Having made that choice, many people fall short of their aim to be a CEO. That's men and women. It's not because of their gender, it's a simple statistic.

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday 30-Jul-2019, 12:43* »
It's worth trying again so I'll try.

The gender pay gap has zero to do with paying women a different amount for doing the same job as men - that's illegal already.

The gender pay gap isn't anything to do with women-only shortlists.

The gender pay gap is about opening up career pathways that previously haven't been open to women, have been discouraged for women, women haven't thought about -- for lots and lots of different reasons. Cultural, historical, self-limitation, external limitation, bias, or just choice.

If you think the gender pay gap means you can't pay a man more than a woman. You're wrong.
If you think the gender pay gap means you can't discriminate against women, or black people, or gay people - you're wrong. That's what long-standing legislation does.
If you think the gender pay gap is an argument for choosing someone less capable to do a job, you're also wrong.

Hope that helps.

Statistics can be useful but they aren't 100% proof of anything. The gender pay gap fails to take into account a multitude of factors - age, experience, qualification, track record, and of course luck. There may also be other factors in individual cases.

Gone

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #38 on: Monday 12-Aug-2019, 21:43* »
Statistics can be useful but they aren't 100% proof of anything. The gender pay gap fails to take into account a multitude of factors - age, experience, qualification, track record, and of course luck. There may also be other factors in individual cases.

Statistics are literal 100% proof of a great many things. Thatís why they are statistics not just a guess.

The whole point of them in this case is that they support exactly the point of your argument.

In order to work out why women arenít getting into top jobs odd necessary to establish that it is in fact the case that they arenít.

All your points are what follows - why arenít they. The answer could be any one of the things you list on an individual basis.

But more potently one of those reasons may not be as uncontrollable as luck.
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Yareet

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #39 on: Saturday 17-Aug-2019, 17:29* »
Still waiting...

By the way, you missed out on one other factor - choice. People don't "choose" to become a CEO. They choose to aim to become a CEO, which requires a lot of hard work, sacrifice, selfishness and aptitude. Studies show that females in general are less selfish than men when it come to career matters. Plus of course many women choose to break their career to have children; it's harsh, but naturally any career break of that magnitude will negatively impact on a career path. Having made that choice, many people fall short of their aim to be a CEO. That's men and women. It's not because of their gender, it's a simple statistic.


Apologies I rarely stray from the rugby section so only just seen this.

In what world do people not choose to be a CEO? I hadnít realised that they were all forced at gun point to accept the position.

As to your second point, surely you can see how you are undermining your own argument?

If women are generally less selfish than men, what is it about the respective biologies that makes that happen? And if itís not biological, Iíd argue itís social conditioning which perpetuates the cycle.

And studies also show that men would also like to break their career to look after children but again social conditioning says this is a womanís job - so both genders lose out; men in the family life, women in their careers.

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #40 on: Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 09:59* »

Apologies I rarely stray from the rugby section so only just seen this.

In what world do people not choose to be a CEO? I hadnít realised that they were all forced at gun point to accept the position.

As to your second point, surely you can see how you are undermining your own argument?

If women are generally less selfish than men, what is it about the respective biologies that makes that happen? And if itís not biological, Iíd argue itís social conditioning which perpetuates the cycle.

And studies also show that men would also like to break their career to look after children but again social conditioning says this is a womanís job - so both genders lose out; men in the family life, women in their careers.

Women are generally different psychologically/hormonally, for a start. It's nature, not social conditioning. We live in an age when there is less conditioning than ever before.

Many people don't want to be a CEO. It can mean years of struggle and sacrifice, as well as dealing with corporate politics and more, all to deal with huge pressure and the risk of having to carry the can when others mess up. It's not for everyone.

Yareet

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #41 on: Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 11:24* »
Women are generally different psychologically/hormonally, for a start. It's nature, not social conditioning. We live in an age when there is less conditioning than ever before.

Many people don't want to be a CEO. It can mean years of struggle and sacrifice, as well as dealing with corporate politics and more, all to deal with huge pressure and the risk of having to carry the can when others mess up. It's not for everyone.

Just so Iím clear, are you claiming that it is differences in biology that mean that fewer women want to have the top job?

guest257

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #42 on: Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 11:35* »
Sometimes on here it feels like a parallel universe where the social progression and equality movements of the last 30 years just didnít happen.
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Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday 20-Aug-2019, 09:56* »
Just so Iím clear, are you claiming that it is differences in biology that mean that fewer women want to have the top job?

No.

Quinky

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Re: Equality Issues
« Reply #44 on: Tuesday 20-Aug-2019, 09:58* »
Sometimes on here it feels like a parallel universe where the social progression and equality movements of the last 30 years just didnít happen.

Ah yes, equality. It's funny how people who preach equality often want to achieve it by enforcing inequality.

 

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