Author Topic: Well Said, Ugo (Read 1475 times)

Quinky · « **Reply #15 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 10:51* »

Quote from: Spitfire on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 10:49*

Ugo spoke about it a little on the BBC rugby podcast, nobody agrees exactly where it comes from, you can certainly trace it back to MLK. Kaepernick definitely inspired the more recent interpretation though.

What’s frustrating about this whole debate is that simply explaining why people like Ugo feel the need to kneel gets bad faith arguments that don’t even want to consider the premise.

I fully respect Ugo's decision to kneel, and the same goes for anyone else.

Spitfire · « **Reply #16 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:16* »

Agreed, just as it’s completely fine for anyone to choose not to kneel for their own personal reasons, they also have a right not to be victimised for doing so.

never sleep · « **Reply #17 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:24* »

My issue with kneeling is this.
Assume that there is a vaccine and we return to normal and the first game at the Stoop is going to be marking BLM.
Kneeling down for me is a bit of an issue. It is painful and I probably need help back up.
So, I would be dreading going back to the Stoop and being expected to kneel.
But, on the other hand, if I don't kneel, then I will be targeted as a racist.
So, my plan would be to go to the Queens Head to queue for a pint a little before kick off. This way, I could guarantee that I would not be back at my seat in time for kick-off and I could just avoid it.
No-one would judge me then if I didn't kneel.

Cookie · « **Reply #18 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:26* »

Quote from: Quinky on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 10:12*

You're right. We should all kneel. Then racism will disappear forever. Job done.

And then you woke up. "Woke" seemingly being the key word here.

BTW, non-white people can be every bit as racist as white people.

I didn't say racism would disappear, did I? It would be nice to think we might try something that might help, though. Neither did I say racism is confined to white people - clearly it's not. But maybe, just maybe, if black people hadn't been suppressed for hundreds of years, things might be a bit calmer. And I don't know the facts on the % of white and black men killed by the police, but given how white men massively outnumber black men, that would seem an obvious assumption. Struggling to understand the point you're making, mind.

Appreciate you reminding me of the reason I didn't bother coming here for 6 months, though.

Cookie · « **Reply #19 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:29* »

Quote from: never sleep on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:24*

My issue with kneeling is this.
Assume that there is a vaccine and we return to normal and the first game at the Stoop is going to be marking BLM.
Kneeling down for me is a bit of an issue. It is painful and I probably need help back up.
So, I would be dreading going back to the Stoop and being expected to kneel.
But, on the other hand, if I don't kneel, then I will be targeted as a racist.
So, my plan would be to go to the Queens Head to queue for a pint a little before kick off. This way, I could guarantee that I would not be back at my seat in time for kick-off and I could just avoid it.
No-one would judge me then if I didn't kneel.

I've never seen any crowds take the knee (it was happening pre-covid and also in countries where restrictions are being lifted). This is something only the players do.

As was mentioned by the RFU, each club is taking the action they decide. Some are huddling, some wearing tee shirts. Quins players and staff have decided to kneel.

Cookie · « **Reply #20 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:32* »

Quote from: Spitfire on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:16*

Agreed, just as it’s completely fine for anyone to choose not to kneel for their own personal reasons, they also have a right not to be victimised for doing so.

I agree that it's a personal choice. But I'm not sure I see where the problem lies. The reason it's so contentious is that players take the knee during the national anthem. That's the bit that's deemed disrespectful. It escalated last night where the players were booed and had things thrown onto the pitch. The irony there being the people complaining were actually booing the anthem, which seems to go against exactly what they're complaining about.

never sleep · « **Reply #21 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:35* »

Quote from: Cookie on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:26*

Appreciate you reminding me of the reason I didn't bother coming here for 6 months, though.

Cookie - Personally - I am glad to see you back.

I wouldn't kneel - but would take part in another gesture.
But - I do feel for sports people that choose not to. I guess that they need to avoid Twitter for a few weeks afterwards.

Quinky · « **Reply #22 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:50* »

Quote from: Cookie on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:26*

I didn't say racism would disappear, did I? It would be nice to think we might try something that might help, though. Neither did I say racism is confined to white people - clearly it's not. But maybe, just maybe, if black people hadn't been suppressed for hundreds of years, things might be a bit calmer. And I don't know the facts on the % of white and black men killed by the police, but given how white men massively outnumber black men, that would seem an obvious assumption. Struggling to understand the point you're making, mind.

Appreciate you reminding me of the reason I didn't bother coming here for 6 months, though.

I personally don't see how kneeling has any impact on racism whatsoever. I'd expect people not to be racist, but there will always be some who are. Those who are, will be unlikely to kneel. They'll also be unlikely to think "He, Joe Marler took the knee. Maybe racism IS wrong after all...".

Maybe if people looked ahead instead of constantly trying to rake up history, things would be calmer. Maybe if people just focused on themselves and stopped trying to make others see things their way, things would be calmer.

Maybe you don't know the stats, so maybe you should look them up. They do make interesting reading, and often challenge the narrative that's generally spouted.

If you think taking the knee is a worthwhile gesture, I respect that. I just happen to feel differently. The world will still turn, you think your way, I think mine. No harm done.

honkytonk · « **Reply #23 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:52* »

I would be surprise to see see crowds kneel. Theres not the space!!!

Spitfire · « **Reply #24 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:55* »

How do we know we can't change people's minds until we try? You may rightly feel that you aren't racist and so this isn't about you, that doesn't mean nobody should take their own stands against racism, which is what's happening. If you don't want to engage, that's fine too, but you seem to be very happy to be very vocally against these actions if you aren't willing to engage.

Quinky · « **Reply #25 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 12:02* »

Quote from: Spitfire on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:55*

How do we know we can't change people's minds until we try? You may rightly feel that you aren't racist and so this isn't about you, that doesn't mean nobody should take their own stands against racism, which is what's happening. If you don't want to engage, that's fine too, but you seem to be very happy to be very vocally against these actions if you aren't willing to engage.

That's why I've said repeatedly that I fully respect other people's decisions to do what they feel is right for them.

JammyGit · « **Reply #26 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 12:09* »

Quote from: Cookie on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:32*

I agree that it's a personal choice. But I'm not sure I see where the problem lies. The reason it's so contentious is that players take the knee during the national anthem. That's the bit that's deemed disrespectful. It escalated last night where the players were booed and had things thrown onto the pitch. The irony there being the people complaining were actually booing the anthem, which seems to go against exactly what they're complaining about.

The real irony is that Kaepernick was originally abused for simply not standing for the anthem. A former Green Beret got in touch with him to suggest that kneeling would be appropriate and respectful, and he agreed to do it instead of staying seated. And then people made out that kneeling was 'disrespecting the flag'.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee?t=1597403299613

Cookie · « **Reply #27 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 12:27* »

Quote from: Quinky on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:50*

Maybe if people looked ahead instead of constantly trying to rake up history, things would be calmer. Maybe if people just focused on themselves and stopped trying to make others see things their way, things would be calmer.

Maybe you don't know the stats, so maybe you should look them up. They do make interesting reading, and often challenge the narrative that's generally spouted.

If you think taking the knee is a worthwhile gesture, I respect that. I just happen to feel differently. The world will still turn, you think your way, I think mine. No harm done.

How on earth can you expect people who have been suppressed to just forget about it and move on? One of the things I am learning is that I have enjoyed white privilege for all of my life and I need to try and put myself in the shoes of others to understand what they've been through and bring about change. The people who have the best chance of bringing about change are people like me, not asking black men and women to forget about the injustice they've suffered for centuries.

And I have looked up the stats. The US is 76% white and yet only 41% of those killed by police were white. 13% of the US is black and yet 22% of those killed are black. Do you think these 'challenge the narrative that's generally spouted' (odd phrase to use, by the way)? Seems to me it proves it very clearly.

MadMax · « **Reply #28 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 12:29* »

Quote from: Fearless Fred on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 09:13*

Aha, so now we know that SwindonQuin is actually Dominic Raab.

Nah Dominic Raab would kneel for Boris too!

MadMax · « **Reply #29 on:** Friday 14-Aug-2020, 12:35* »

Quote from: Spitfire on Friday 14-Aug-2020, 11:16*

Agreed, just as it’s completely fine for anyone to choose not to kneel for their own personal reasons, they also have a right not to be victimised for doing so.

Indeed. I recently read a quote from a member of the BAME community who said she didn't agree with taking the knee because for her it suggested subservience which is a fair point in my opinion.

I agree with Anthony Watson who has said he wants players to do whatever they want to do as a symbol of support, including nothing. Forcing people into an empty gesture is pointless.

Newcomers Start Here

Harlequins/Rugby Links

Articles

Author Topic: Well Said, Ugo (Read 1475 times)

Quinky

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Spitfire

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

never sleep

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Cookie

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Cookie

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Cookie

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

never sleep

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Quinky

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

honkytonk

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Spitfire

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Quinky

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

JammyGit

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

Cookie

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

MadMax

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

MadMax

Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments

User

Site Statistics