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Author Topic: Well Said, Ugo  (Read 1476 times)

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Quinten Poulsen

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Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments
« Reply #30 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 12:37* »
How meaningful are those stats on their own though? For example, I read a piece on the BBC recently on institutional racism that was framed around the fact that black people are something like 2 to 3 times more likely to die in police custody that white people in this country. Further down the article was for me a far more meaningful stat - for the demographic of people who actually do get put into police custody then a white person is 25% more likely to die. Of course I have to applaud the BBC for actually reporting that second stat - a lot of media outlets wouldn't have bothered - but there's no doubt what the message was. So for police custody deaths which of those stats is a more meaningful indication of the existence of institutional racism in the police force?

Black people are killed in the US by police in the proportion that would be expected when looked at in terms of the number of people who have involvement with the police and violent crime. Unfortunately it seems that any disparity that doesn't favour the black population is immediately assumed to be due to racism.
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RodneyRegis

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #31 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 14:59* »
How on earth can you expect people who have been suppressed to just forget about it and move on? One of the things I am learning is that I have enjoyed white privilege for all of my life and I need to try and put myself in the shoes of others to understand what they've been through and bring about change. The people who have the best chance of bringing about change are people like me, not asking black men and women to forget about the injustice they've suffered for centuries.

And I have looked up the stats. The US is 76% white and yet only 41% of those killed by police were white. 13% of the US is black and yet 22% of those killed are black. Do you think these 'challenge the narrative that's generally spouted' (odd phrase to use, by the way)? Seems to me it proves it very clearly.

Come on.

Unless you think police are going around killing people at random on the street, those stats are completely redundant.

The relevant statistic is the proportion of people killed when in custody, not as a percentage of the entire population.

The problem is not US police killing black people in cuistody. It's US police killing people in custody.
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Cookie

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #32 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 15:05* »
Why are you getting so hung up on custody? George Floyd was killed on the street. Breonna Taylor was killed in her own home. In her home!!!

Maybe you're not seeing what I'm seeing, but every single day it's abuse of black people. When was the last time you saw or even heard of an illegal murder of a white person by a police officer.

One of the worst I saw the other day was when several people called the police as a white homeless guy had pulled a knife on 3 black kids waiting for a bus. Police turned up and pointed all their weapons at the black kids. The real criminal walked away.

Cookie

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #33 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 15:07* »
Unless you think police are going around killing people at random on the street, those stats are completely redundant.

And I do think this, because they are - I named just 2 above. The evidence is all to easy to find.

RodneyRegis

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #34 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 15:27* »
And I do think this, because they are - I named just 2 above. The evidence is all to easy to find.
Custody, involvement. It's obvious what I mean. You think Floyd was a random killing?!

The Taylor killing looks like a disaster of epic proportions, but I'm not sure how it can be attributed to racism.

There were over 1000 white people killed by police in the US over the past 3 years, and no I don't hear anything about a single one of them.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming for a second that institutional racism is not endemic in the US Police force, or that they are anything other than thoroughly incompetent. I'm just pointing out that there are serious misconceptions about the disparity when it comes to police brutality, and that it's a problem in a country which is fubar - I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that we don't have anywhere near the same issue in the UK.

You started this conversation about racism issues in rugby. I'm not sure why it's now a discussion about US police homicide.

Cookie

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #35 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 15:40* »
No, I didn't. I started a conversation about racism and rugby's attempt to do their part in stamping it out.

Then we got into a ridiculous sidetracked debate about what colour people kill each other, seemingly in an attempt to play down the fact that society is inherently racist and there's not much point in trying to do anything about it.

Le Tiss

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #36 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 16:02* »
for what its worth a read an interesting article that suggested toxicology tests on George Floyd suggested he had fatal levels of drugs in him and was acting erratically and struggling to breathe when the police arrived.I am certainly no expert on any of this and the article goes on a bit, but the exchanges presumably captured on officers recording equipment are interesting. whatever the outcome of this, I certainly do not believe the officers acted in George Floyds best interests at the outset if he was indeed struggling medically.
 https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/ . sometimes all is not as it seems, and sometimes it is. The courts will decide eventually.
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Carbonm

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Re: Re: Well Said, Ugo comments
« Reply #37 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 16:04* »
It may be that people DO understand it, but have a different view.

The whole country could takle a knee, and it wouldn't make a difference IMO.

But here's a little fact that the BLM movement seems to dodge: the biggest threat to young black males is other young black males. It seems that BL don't necessarily M to other BLs.
Clapping for the NHS didn't make any difference to the Covid situation but it showed solidarity at the time. Not everyone joined in and it stopped eventually,  as will this, but the point was made.

JammyGit

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #38 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 16:11* »
Le Tiss

Counter-point:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/opinion/george-floyd-toxicology-report-drugs.html
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/

And the two autopsies made it clear what killed him:

Quote
The Hennepin County Medical Examiner ruled that Floyd's death was a homicide due to "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restrain and neck compression."

An independent autopsy found that the death was "homicide caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of blood flow to the brain."

"What we found is consistent with what people saw," former New York City chief medical examiner Dr. Michael Baden, who performed the independent autopsy, said. "There is no other health issue that could cause or contribute to the death."

Le Tiss

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #39 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 16:21* »
As i say I am no expert and I am sure the opposing medical practitioners will have their say in court. I just find the transcripts of the exchanges interesting. I am not nailing my colours to any particular mast in this. It is a tragic incident regardless of the root cause. A man lost his life and that is awful. The exchanges certainly paint an interesting angle on things. He was acting erratically/irrationally when the police arrived, the exchanges confirm that. He was claiming to be struggling to breathe when the police arrived, again the exchanges seem to confirm that also. Assuming the exchanges are being accurately reported then something weird was going on. As I say the court will decide on all of this, and as I said before, i do not think they acted in his best interests if he was struggling medically.

Quinten Poulsen

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #40 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 17:29* »
Why are you getting so hung up on custody? George Floyd was killed on the street. Breonna Taylor was killed in her own home. In her home!!!

Maybe you're not seeing what I'm seeing, but every single day it's abuse of black people. When was the last time you saw or even heard of an illegal murder of a white person by a police officer.


Most people don't hear about it because the media barely reports it.

US police have shot and killed 11 unarmed white people so far this year. Try searching the BBC or The Guardian or any other media outlet and see how many of them reported the deaths of these people -

Hannah Fizer, Tyler Hays, Nicholas Bils, Giuseppe Particianone, Zachary Shane Gifford, John Mark Hendrick, Aaron Tolen, Brian Marksberry, Kenneth Mullins, Christopher Palmer, Stephen O'Brien.
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JammyGit

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #41 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 17:58* »
As i say I am no expert and I am sure the opposing medical practitioners will have their say in court. I just find the transcripts of the exchanges interesting. I am not nailing my colours to any particular mast in this. It is a tragic incident regardless of the root cause. A man lost his life and that is awful. The exchanges certainly paint an interesting angle on things. He was acting erratically/irrationally when the police arrived, the exchanges confirm that. He was claiming to be struggling to breathe when the police arrived, again the exchanges seem to confirm that also. Assuming the exchanges are being accurately reported then something weird was going on. As I say the court will decide on all of this, and as I said before, i do not think they acted in his best interests if he was struggling medically.

There's no opposing medical practitioners, though. There's been an official autopsy and an independent one, and they both say the same thing. An incredibly partisan view from the Spectator, who have repeatedly laid all the blame on the victim, does not change that.

"He was claiming to be struggling to breathe when the police arrived, again the exchanges seem to confirm that also." - no. Here is the actual transcript: https://www.twincities.com/2020/07/09/george-floyd-transcript-read-it-in-full-here/ he does not say that when the police arrived. He says it once after making it really clear he was panicking from having a gun on him, being handcuffed, and stuffed into the back of a car with associated claustrophobia.

He did say "I can't breathe" about 20 times before they killed him, though. In case that wasn't clear.

Le Tiss

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #42 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 18:22* »
And well before he was on the ground. He appears to be acting strangely and his friend even asked him to stop resisting. Either way it will come out in court. The view in the admittedly biased spectator is from a medical practitioner. I dont know the answers here but the court will decide eventually. I am not saying the police are blameless here. At best they failed in a duty of care and at worst they are directly responsible for his death.

JammyGit

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #43 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 18:32* »
What? The dude in the Spectator is a former prosecutor, not a medical practitioner. A medical practitioner probably wouldn't second-guess two separate autopsies or try and make a big claim about fentanyl without knowing how fentanyl works.

The NYT article IS written by a medical expert, who says this:

Quote
My analysis of Mr. Floyd’s toxicology report is that drugs could not have contributed to his death. Nor could they have made him “crazed.” In other words, drugs didn’t make him act so violently that lethal force was necessary nor did it cause some fatal medical condition.

Mr. Floyd had a negligible amount of drugs in his system — 19 nanograms per milliliter of methamphetamine and 2.9 nanograms per milliliter of THC, the major psychoactive ingredient in marijuana. Those numbers suggest he hadn’t used them in at least several hours, maybe a day.

...

He also had 11 nanograms of fentanyl in his blood. That number, in and of itself, doesn’t tell us much. Immediately after a person dies, the blood concentration of fentanyl increases significantly, so knowing only the post-mortem amount does not tell us about Mr. Floyd’s level of intoxication before his death.

What’s more, the same amount of fentanyl that produces euphoria in a tolerant user can result in an overdose in a newer user. That’s why, along with the toxicology report, we have to look at Mr. Floyd’s behavior shortly before his death.

Videos show Mr. Floyd behaving rationally and appropriately, considering the circumstances. When officers asked him to get out of his car, he did not seem drowsy or lethargic, which is how people high on opioids behave.

so the guy in the Spectator confidently claiming George Floyd was responsible for his own death can take a hike, frankly.

Cookie

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Re: Well Said, Ugo
« Reply #44 on: Friday 14-Aug-2020, 19:33* »
I hope deniers are watching Ugo, Maro and Ellis in this pre-game show.

 

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