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Author Topic: England: What the papers say  (Read 941 times)

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DOK

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Monte

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 03-Nov-2019, 08:48* »
Your clearly a sadist - but all comments justified!

JammyGit

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 03-Nov-2019, 11:35* »
The Guardian's player ratings are an absolute riot. Our worst performers given an easy ride by people with not a single clue about the sport they watch.

RodneyRegis

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 03-Nov-2019, 22:32* »
The Guardian's player ratings are an absolute riot. Our worst performers given an easy ride by people with not a single clue about the sport they watch.

Billy = kolbe. Seems fair.

Quinky

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #4 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 11:58* »
I haven't seen the reports, but think it's harsh to rip into England. The Boks just had a fantastic day, in the same way that England had last week. But if Billy (who was outplayed by Vermeulen) is ranked with Kolbe (whose try was a thing of beauty), I do wonder if the pundit has been smoking something he shouldn't have been.

Fine margins. England were still in it early in the second half, even if they never looked like winning. But I was astonished at how many of the big names were totally anonymous. Was Itoje even playing? Where were the big ball carriers? In a strange way, I think perhaps the victory over the ABs, and the manner of that win, didn't help them.

Banstead Quin

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #5 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 13:42* »
Funny that it was a welsh on-line website.

The more I reflect on it, the less it hurts. We did deserve what we got on the day and so we shouldn't complain. The real test is what happens next. Baby and bathwater seems to be most of the reactions in the press and various on-line sources but if Jones stays on (and he should) I would like to see him swap out the weak points of the team and decide what he wants it to look like in 4 years time and start now.

2/3 of the starting XV should still be there but:-

* Sort out the Fullback position and stick a proper one in
* Pick 3 new scrum halves for the next 4 year cycle
* Ease Genge into the starting XV over the next year
* Find a better back up to Kyle
* Sort out whether Farrell is a 10 or 12 and stick with it

It hurts but it is fixable and if that's the only game we lose we lose for the next two years then it starts to look good.


Fearless Fred

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #6 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 14:00* »
I'm of the same opinion, Banstead. Jones brought us to one game away from winning the RWC in 3&1/5 years, beating two out of the three big SH teams in the knock-out stages, all with a mainly young team.

Areas he needs to now work on:
Front Row, need to have three good options in all three positions. TH is the main concern.
2nd Row , Time to blood another youngster, as Lawes may not make it through to '23, so let's get the replacement onto the pitch in some games.
BR, Some good options already, maybe we'll see Dombrandt get some game time in the 6N or the Japan tour next summer.
SH, MAJOR need to get the younger guys into the squad & playing. Youngs time in the England shirt should now be over.
FH/IC/OC; even though some of the players are still young, it's a good chance to look to freshen up the larger squad & see if they work better than the Ford/Farrell/Tuilagi or even worse Farrell/Tuilagi/Slade combinations/
Wings, Pretty well covered here for a while
FB, Just put Watson back there, please! Daly in the squad as a utility back, not a FB.

Gameplan & Leadership also needs to be addressed. When we start well, things click & it's all hunky-dory (cf the SF against NZ). What's lacking is that extra leadership & nous to change things on the field if it isn't. That's where NZ has had its strength. Even when they're down a couple of scores, you can typically expect the players to work out why that is & what needs to change *without* having to have the coaches send on the "water-boys" with instructions. On Saturday, our players couldn't make that leap.
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Boonie

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #7 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 15:53* »
Going into the WC with only two THs was called out right at the beginning, and right at the end, it hurt us badly. Going into the WC without a FB who plays there all the time was also called out, and also hurt us. But there were some excellent players as well, and some excellent performances, and that must not be overlooked. If we are going to make the changes we need as highlighted above, now is the time to do it.
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T-Bone

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #8 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 16:44* »
Going into the WC with only two THs was called out right at the beginning, and right at the end, it hurt us badly. Going into the WC without a FB who plays there all the time was also called out, and also hurt us. But there were some excellent players as well, and some excellent performances, and that must not be overlooked. If we are going to make the changes we need as highlighted above, now is the time to do it.

I completely agree regarding fullback, but why did only 2 tightheads hurt us?

We can only name two in the matchday 23. Fair to assume that Cole would have been one of them, so even if Williams or someone else had travelled, they'd probably only have played in the pool stages, would have stopped Kyle getting knocked out and Cole having to play 78 mins and struggling

Teddington Taff

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #9 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 17:15* »
I wanted England to win and was upset at the final result.  I wanted a Northern Hemisphere team to win and glad that Wales didnt have to play England.  So this is genuinely no sour grapes or having a pop at England.
But I have to say - and I've read a couple of commentators that say the same - England dont seem to have a Plan B.  A neighbour - and English supporter said - It's not as though there was a big secret as to how the Boks played and what they can do in attack.
Eddie Jones had available to him players from 12 professional clubs; the richest (financially) rugby union; etc., etc., etc.... His early achievementts were on the back of the set up put in place by Stuart Lancaster.  Four years to grossly underachieve in the final - it's a pretty grim indictment of his 4 year tenure.

A222Quin

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #10 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 18:01* »
I wanted England to win and was upset at the final result.  I wanted a Northern Hemisphere team to win and glad that Wales didnt have to play England.  So this is genuinely no sour grapes or having a pop at England.
But I have to say - and I've read a couple of commentators that say the same - England dont seem to have a Plan B.  A neighbour - and English supporter said - It's not as though there was a big secret as to how the Boks played and what they can do in attack.
Eddie Jones had available to him players from 12 professional clubs; the richest (financially) rugby union; etc., etc., etc.... His early achievementts were on the back of the set up put in place by Stuart Lancaster.  Four years to grossly underachieve in the final - it's a pretty grim indictment of his 4 year tenure.


Hmm, not sure I agree TT.

The same set up under Lancaster that never won a 6 nations. The same Lancaster set up that was knocked out of a home world cup with the players looking shadows of their former selves. I get EJ rubs people up the wrong way but I think finishing runner up in the World Cup represents a reasonable return, despite the final performance. I get the point about the richest union - and 12 clubs - but it's a wholly different set up to pretty much anyone but France. The famous minutes played Farrell vs Sexton stat suggests that the English club game could be a hindrance rather than a help...

Genuine question - what would you say about Schmidt's tenure with Ireland? Some great moments before being beaten by Japan and battered by the Kiwis. Or Gatland? I think he's done a fantastic job with Wales and The Lions, but 12 years and only in the last couple have Wales beaten any of the SH 3 with any regularity? 

Mayor West

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #11 on: Monday 04-Nov-2019, 18:03* »
I think we suffer from nerves or anxiety in the biggest of games. We’ve done it more than once in the six Nations and it happened again on Saturday. If we are underdogs we seem fine but put pressure on us and it all goes wrong. Would a talisman like Alun WJ or Jonno have sorted us out and who could it have been for England. We have a very young team, is that the problem.

Boonie

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 05-Nov-2019, 11:42* »
I completely agree regarding fullback, but why did only 2 tightheads hurt us?

We can only name two in the matchday 23. Fair to assume that Cole would have been one of them, so even if Williams or someone else had travelled, they'd probably only have played in the pool stages, would have stopped Kyle getting knocked out and Cole having to play 78 mins and struggling

The issue with TH, as I see it, is that it is one of the most attritional positions. Having additional cover for the pool matches would have allowed for more R&R for the two we had. Fully accept that this does not account for the highly unusual situation in the final, losing a TH within 3 minutes.

DOK

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Re: England: What the papers say
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 05-Nov-2019, 16:48* »
but it was always a possibility, or food poisoning from a dodgy bit of sushi or a training injury...

 

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