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Author Topic: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?  (Read 4538 times)

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harlequins

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #106 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 11:29* »
looks like Saracens have got away with it again...if it is all true of course.

Blucherquin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #107 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 11:35* »
There's nothing like hiding in plain sight.

T-Bone

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #108 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 12:10* »
From what I can see he's saying that the players have set up companies with the benefit of our advice and we think that all these companies sound like fantastic investment opportunities, so we've invested our own cash in them, just like we could invest our cash in any other business. Is that right? If so, I guess they're probably allowed to do it under the cap regulations, but it clearly stinks.

The long post he wrote, which has been lapped up by the likes of Greenwood, Flatman and the other sycophants, is fairly laughable. He waffles on for ages about how well they look after their players and engage in the community, which I'm sure is perfectly true and is indeed laudable. Then there's a short paragraph where he seems to suggest that they help players set up companies and then they inject loads of cash as an investment, but that's fine, because it's a genuine investment decision which they've weighed up, comes with its own risk, etc.

So the way to get round the cap is to tell a player you'll pay them, say, £500k over 2 years. Suggest that they inject some of that cash and some other cash into a new company which holds a property portfolio. The club's owner will then invest in your new property business because they think it looks like a really promising investment opportunity (because by sheer coincidence a lot of the top international players are also very savvy businessmen and property experts).

Use the investment to buy some more properties, get some advice from rich owner's mates, property portfolio grows, investment looks like a sound and legitimate one.

Helping with work placements, being flexible to allow studying, sharing expertise to help players start a business such as the coffee, lager, jolly hog, etc, is one thing. It is indeed laudable and I know we do do it and think all clubs should. Just pumping investment capital into someone's business which you have helped set up is another thing entirely.
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Quinky

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #109 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 13:22* »
From what I can see he's saying that the players have set up companies with the benefit of our advice and we think that all these companies sound like fantastic investment opportunities, so we've invested our own cash in them, just like we could invest our cash in any other business. Is that right? If so, I guess they're probably allowed to do it under the cap regulations, but it clearly stinks.

The long post he wrote, which has been lapped up by the likes of Greenwood, Flatman and the other sycophants, is fairly laughable. He waffles on for ages about how well they look after their players and engage in the community, which I'm sure is perfectly true and is indeed laudable. Then there's a short paragraph where he seems to suggest that they help players set up companies and then they inject loads of cash as an investment, but that's fine, because it's a genuine investment decision which they've weighed up, comes with its own risk, etc.

So the way to get round the cap is to tell a player you'll pay them, say, £500k over 2 years. Suggest that they inject some of that cash and some other cash into a new company which holds a property portfolio. The club's owner will then invest in your new property business because they think it looks like a really promising investment opportunity (because by sheer coincidence a lot of the top international players are also very savvy businessmen and property experts).

Use the investment to buy some more properties, get some advice from rich owner's mates, property portfolio grows, investment looks like a sound and legitimate one.

Helping with work placements, being flexible to allow studying, sharing expertise to help players start a business such as the coffee, lager, jolly hog, etc, is one thing. It is indeed laudable and I know we do do it and think all clubs should. Just pumping investment capital into someone's business which you have helped set up is another thing entirely.

As I said earlier in the thread, it may well stink (it does) but it may also be perfectly permissible.

I haven't read the article that was mentioned a few posts back. My initial response to the comments on here is that some of the companies were not set up by the players concerned, but were transferred into their names. This casts a shadow of what has been suggested.

Secondly, business advice, help etc usually comes at a price. Has this been assessed for value and included in the salary cap?

Quinten Poulsen

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #110 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 13:37* »
Well if it's all above board there's no reason why other clubs shouldn't be doing it.

Quinky

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #111 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 13:48* »
Well if it's all above board there's no reason why other clubs shouldn't be doing it.

Very true. The key word being "IF". That's for the powers that be to pass judgement on.

I have sometimes wondered what would happen if something happened outside of the scope of salary cap "related parties". Hypothetically speaking, let's say Quins had a mega-rich fan (Deadly, for example) - you know, worth hundreds of millions - who wasn't actually affiliated or linked to the club apart from being a season ticket holder or a box owner. What if that person knew the club were interested in Eben Etzebeth (for example) but couldn't afford him within the cap. What if then that particular fan came to an arrangement with the player away from the club, about which the club knew nothing? Something like "Eben, sign for Quins and I'll give you £xxx per year as long as you play for them - call it a gift". How would that be policed, and would it be permissible or punishable?

Apologies in advance if this has been covered before.

Only Joe Quin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #112 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 15:01* »
All these young guys with short careers earning shed loads of money..... investing for the future seems eminently sensible. And property can be a very good investment, although I hope they have spread their risk and put money in other types of investments.
So far, nothing revealed by Sportsmail suggests anything nefarious going on.
But conspiracy theories are so much fun!

Blucherquin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #113 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 15:17* »
All these young guys with short careers earning shed loads of money..... investing for the future seems eminently sensible. And property can be a very good investment, although I hope they have spread their risk and put money in other types of investments.
So far, nothing revealed by Sportsmail suggests anything nefarious going on.
But conspiracy theories are so much fun!

I would doubt anyone involved in writing the story thinks that players shouldn't invest in the future or be involved in business ventures - it's been a rugby player thing for years and years now.

I doubt they were just surprised that property happened to be one of these.

And they wouldn't have randomly started sniffing around property deals without being tipped off to look.

But it may well have been misguided - or not - or we may never know.

DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #114 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 16:20* »
Well, as Nigel Wray said, he didn't exactly try to hide his involvement in the companies of these players. A quick search of Companies House was all it took. Maybe it is kosher, maybe he knows he's untouchable. At least the Mail brought it out in the open.

A222Quin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #115 on: Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 16:46* »
You have a rich owner willing to do this then it works. You don’t, then you can’t. If it’s all above board there’s not much that can be done. Just an easy way of getting round the cap.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #116 on: Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 09:02* »
Very true. The key word being "IF". That's for the powers that be to pass judgement on.

I have sometimes wondered what would happen if something happened outside of the scope of salary cap "related parties". Hypothetically speaking, let's say Quins had a mega-rich fan (Deadly, for example) - you know, worth hundreds of millions - who wasn't actually affiliated or linked to the club apart from being a season ticket holder or a box owner. What if that person knew the club were interested in Eben Etzebeth (for example) but couldn't afford him within the cap. What if then that particular fan came to an arrangement with the player away from the club, about which the club knew nothing? Something like "Eben, sign for Quins and I'll give you £xxx per year as long as you play for them - call it a gift". How would that be policed, and would it be permissible or punishable?

Apologies in advance if this has been covered before.

On a serious note ( I know, I know, calm down Cookie FFS) I cannot see the point of cheating/bending the rules/throwing money at it to make your team the best team. A very hollow victory indeed.

Quinky

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #117 on: Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 09:15* »
Agreed Deadly. Honestly! It makes me laugh when football fans gloat that their team wins against other teams when the first spends more on two or three players than the second spends on their entire team.
For me, Sarries' successes are indeed hollow.

Donuts

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #118 on: Friday 15-Mar-2019, 06:41* »
I’m assuming that further down the road once the player(s) have left the club or retired the loan from Wray will be either partially or totally waived as in the current economic climate property capital gains cannot be guaranteed
When set up the company has effectively nil value as the value of the asset ie the property is counter balanced by an equal amount due to the original investor ( not the player ).
So at the point of being given the shares no benefit has passed and the shareholders agreement likely to be in force protects the main investor and ensures ongoing loyalty.
If at the outset a future series of events is already contractual then it could easily be inferred that the players involved have received something of value and this would accordingly have to be included in the salary cap calculation.
I therefore suspect that this is not the case ;( at least not publicly).
Just my thoughts
Interested fo hear others
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Quinky

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #119 on: Friday 15-Mar-2019, 07:26* »
Liabilities in a property company are likely to be loans, or mortgages. That doesn't have to be from a bank, it could just as easily be from an individual. One possible benefit could be in terms of interest. For example, if the bank interest rate were 10%, but the individual loaned money at 2% interest, there's a benefit. But it's a benefit to the company and if that arrangement is in place before the player owns the company, is it included in salary cap? If it's a benefit to the company, does it need to be included?
Also, when the company buys a property there will be legal fees, stamp duty etc, which can be a lot of money. If the company is then transferred to the player, then they haven't needed to pay that.

 

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