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Author Topic: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?  (Read 4544 times)

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Pickled Pelican

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #45 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 10:29* »
If the "investor" puts in x into the players company, the player plays out his contract(s), leaves the club, a short while later the investor walks away from the business, but leaves the investment in situ.
Is this a way to give a player money over a long term??
Does it fall within the cap, it's a separate business arrangement and the player's left the club??

Gone

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #46 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 10:35* »
All questions that the inquiry will no doubt be unable to answer ultimately.

Prove that the investment was in lieu of salary and that there was an agreement that a loan would never have to be repaid once the player leaves so that they're effectively getting a whack of free cash....

Can't think how you'd prove it.

Quinky

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #47 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 12:10* »
The question for me is really "Who paid what for the houses involved?"

Say it's a 50/50 split in shares between a player and Nigel Wray.
Say the house is worth 1m, and each put in 500,000 to purchase said house.
Dividends from the property company will be paid 50/50.
Presumably should the property be sold, that too would be split 50/50.
I can't see any  problem with this.

However, say Nigel Wray paid for the house and now the player gets dividends, loans from the company and a 50% share of the house selling price.
Clearly, that's a different kettle of fish.

Dividends are paid from post-tax profits. Profit on sale of property is subject to Capital Gains Tax (usually). But the point you raise is important - who paid for the house. At some stage, the property (asset) would have been transferred into the player's company. At that stage, two things concern me: firstly, was the transfer at fair market value. This will concern HMRC (definitely) and PRL (hopefully). Secondly, who paid the legal fees and Stamp Duty (quite a lot of money on 1m= properties). The latter is a way that I can see players benefitting, should someone else be paying the bill.

The bottom line is that in spite of posters on here raising valid points and being unhappy/suspicious of the arrangements, it's possible that it's all kosher. Certainly the business model is tried and tested so for tax purposes it's an easy one to cover. On the other hand, what is reported to PRL is what really concerns us, I believe.

Yareet

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #48 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 13:12* »
And, do the salary cap regulations include or exclude monies and benefits paid directly or indirectly to players by a club's major shareholders or their direct or indirect business interests ('major' presumably being defined in some way)? This is clearly an important question.

Yup

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf

Page 4


Monte

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #49 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 13:15* »
Or paid after they retire and are not on Clubs book!

Yareet

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #50 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 13:17* »
If the "investor" puts in x into the players company, the player plays out his contract(s), leaves the club, a short while later the investor walks away from the business, but leaves the investment in situ.
Is this a way to give a player money over a long term??
Does it fall within the cap, it's a separate business arrangement and the player's left the club??

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf

Ex -players are covered on page 40 as being under the same regulations (effectively)

DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #51 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 12:36* »
Saracens probed by rival club: Firm hired by Premiership team to investigate offshore accounts due to lack of confidence in governing body

DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #52 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 12:39* »
Nice to see the clubs have the same confidence in PRL as the fans! So now we have PRL, the Salary Cap admin person, the Daily Mail and an unnamed club and forensic set of accountants all looking at Saracens salary cap adhesion. Should be interesting to see how that plays out.

Cookie

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #53 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 13:06* »
Ryan Walkinshaw (Gloucester) posted an interesting thread on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/RyanWalkinshaw/status/1103096549599408128

honkytonk

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #54 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 13:18* »
Lets just hope we are clean (barring the recent mis hap)

Nico Wilson

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #55 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 13:24* »
And benefits in kind (e.g. subsidised mortgages) are caught and are deemed to be Salary:

Quote
(p) any payment or benefit in kind which the Player would not have received if it were not for his involvement with a Club;

See Schedule 1, starting on page 38:

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf

InsertQuinsPunHere

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #56 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 13:32* »
Ryan Walkinshaw (Gloucester) posted an interesting thread on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/RyanWalkinshaw/status/1103096549599408128

Yikes... that's eye opening.

Cookie

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #57 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 14:14* »
Yikes... that's eye opening.

Indeed. Can't find the tweet, but he mentioned how many players, ex-players etc had liked and re-tweeted his thread and said he wanted an independent auditor (e.g. PWC) to do the investigation, but was voted down.

Quinky

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #58 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 14:22* »
Indeed. Can't find the tweet, but he mentioned how many players, ex-players etc had liked and re-tweeted his thread and said he wanted an independent auditor (e.g. PWC) to do the investigation, but was voted down.

Another interesting point for me is where he says that getting info from the players is unlikely. I wonder if this would change, should a player have a falling out with the club or its owner. Ultimately, the player would not be responsible for their remuneration, and whether it's all been declared - to PRL or to the taxman.

The second question would be at what point the club are responsible for the owner's actions. Hypothetically, the owner could pay from his own pocket without the club being aware. The player is still being paid. This is covered under the "related parties" bit of the rules, I believe.

The comment about financial penalties is correct, assuming that this is levied on the club and the owner just pumps more money in. It's a cost/risk balance. Maybe any guilty club should suffer a reduction in their penalty cap, in line with the amount of the breach, for a first offence? Overpay by 1m, their cap is reduced by 1m.
« Last Edit: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 14:33* by Quinky »

stoquin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #59 on: Wednesday 06-Mar-2019, 14:35* »
is he still involved in Gloucester I thought he had sold up several years ago. Not saying he can't have views as a rugby and Gloucester fan.

 

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