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Author Topic: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?  (Read 4573 times)

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DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #30 on: Monday 04-Mar-2019, 21:39* »
The question for me is really "Who paid what for the houses involved?"

Say it's a 50/50 split in shares between a player and Nigel Wray.
Say the house is worth £1m, and each put in £500,000 to purchase said house.
Dividends from the property company will be paid 50/50.
Presumably should the property be sold, that too would be split 50/50.
I can't see any  problem with this.

However, say Nigel Wray paid for the house and now the player gets dividends, loans from the company and a 50% share of the house selling price.
Clearly, that's a different kettle of fish.

DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #31 on: Monday 04-Mar-2019, 21:59* »
SARACENS CLUB STATEMENT: CO-INVESTMENT PARTNERSHIPS BETWEEN THE SARACENS OWNER AND PLAYERS

"We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby."
It must simplify matters that every senior player is exploring the same business opportunities away from rugby. So no-one wants to be a cheese maker or run a pub or make artisan beer. They all want to be directors in companies that invest in property. What are the odds?

And when you look at the "senior players" involved, I'm sure it's just a fluke that they would be the ones you might think the club would have a problem properly fitting under the salary cap.  I'm shocked Alex Goode (born 1988) has not opted for this company benefits scheme, he's 3 years older than Farrell, I think he's missing out on a retirement opportunity.

Mayor West

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #32 on: Monday 04-Mar-2019, 22:20* »
You’ve asked the questions I was asking DOK. Is there any way you can tell who introduced what amounts of money to the companies or how the players came into the companies after their inception. Why do Wray and his associates have anything to do with these companies. I take it Duncan Saville isn’t involved with Danny Care Ltd, or any other Harlequin F.C. Director or associate.

Gone

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #33 on: Monday 04-Mar-2019, 22:41* »
Sadly this quotes Andy Goode which means they’ve gone to the biggest rent a gob moron in world rugby.

But it’s otherwise interesting....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6770759/Premiership-clubs-former-players-join-calls-Saracens-salary-cap-inquiry.html

To quote a bit for the lazy:

“Sportsmail understands that the PRL’s salary-cap manager, Andrew Rogers, has been making inquiries specific to Saracens in the last few months.

It is thought that he has asked a number of rival clubs to disclose offers they have made to high-profile players, including Saracens squad members.

Rogers is said to be trying to establish whether players have turned down higher offers than they receive at their current clubs, raising the prospect that they are being remunerated via other methods.

It is possible the extent of Wray’s arrangements with players may extend much wider than initially thought.

Sportsmail has also been told of another major England star who struck a property deal with Wray, and still owed the 70-year-old businessman hundreds of thousands of pounds when he moved clubs.“


DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 00:10* »
I'm hoping the difference between the last time Saracens were under the microscope and this is that this time a national newspaper is shining a light on the dark side of the salary cap. When it was all just the PRL, it was all just easily swept under the carpet. Can they do that now though? If the Mail spent 4 months putting this together, they've got a lot more than what you could get searching the Companies House register for a day! I suspect we'll see some more interesting revelations before this is through.

Bucksquin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 07:26* »
The question for me is really "Who paid what for the houses involved?"

Say it's a 50/50 split in shares between a player and Nigel Wray.
Say the house is worth £1m, and each put in £500,000 to purchase said house.
Dividends from the property company will be paid 50/50.
Presumably should the property be sold, that too would be split 50/50.
I can't see any  problem with this.

However, say Nigel Wray paid for the house and now the player gets dividends, loans from the company and a 50% share of the house selling price.
Clearly, that's a different kettle of fish.

Yes, but what if:

Wray lent the player the money for his 50% at zero interest
The player's shareholding automatically increases, incrementally, over the period of time he is at the club


Bucksquin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 07:28* »
And, do the salary cap regulations include or exclude monies and benefits paid directly or indirectly to players by a club's major shareholders or their direct or indirect business interests ('major' presumably being defined in some way)? This is clearly an important question. 

Mayor West

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 08:18* »
I remember a loophole where you could borrow money from your company as a loan without paying tax on it but never actually pay anything back as there was no time limit. You could then invest that and so on and so on....

A222Quin

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 08:58* »
I bet the findings will be that they haven't done anything wrong by the letter of the law but they'll have kicked the arris out of the spirit of the cap etc.

raedarius

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #39 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 09:04* »
Sadly this quotes Andy Goode which means they’ve gone to the biggest rent a gob moron in world rugby.

But it’s otherwise interesting....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6770759/Premiership-clubs-former-players-join-calls-Saracens-salary-cap-inquiry.html

To quote a bit for the lazy:

“Sportsmail understands that the PRL’s salary-cap manager, Andrew Rogers, has been making inquiries specific to Saracens in the last few months.

It is thought that he has asked a number of rival clubs to disclose offers they have made to high-profile players, including Saracens squad members.

Rogers is said to be trying to establish whether players have turned down higher offers than they receive at their current clubs, raising the prospect that they are being remunerated via other methods.

It is possible the extent of Wray’s arrangements with players may extend much wider than initially thought.

Sportsmail has also been told of another major England star who struck a property deal with Wray, and still owed the 70-year-old businessman hundreds of thousands of pounds when he moved clubs.“

At least they had the decency (odd word for the Mail, I know) to go with a bald Goode photo.
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Fursty

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 09:18* »
And, do the salary cap regulations include or exclude monies and benefits paid directly or indirectly to players by a club's major shareholders or their direct or indirect business interests ('major' presumably being defined in some way)? This is clearly an important question.

Yes these amounts would be included in the cap - essentially anyway in which the club or associated people provide any financial benefit to a player should be caught by the cap.

DOK et all, This has absolutely nothing to do with company law or tax legislation

Joebe

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 09:24* »
Listening to Danny and Ugo on the BBC Rugby Pod, they say the lack of action by the league last time was a major reason why Conor decided to leave.

Gone

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #42 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 09:28* »
Yes these amounts would be included in the cap - essentially anyway in which the club or associated people provide any financial benefit to a player should be caught by the cap.

DOK et all, This has absolutely nothing to do with company law or tax legislation

Exactly. For fear of going in circles -- it doesn't matter how they are paying the players. It only matters if they are getting money to the players that PRL doesn't know about.

If you tell PRL that you're paying Farrell £250,000 a year (by whatever legal means), but you're actually paying him £350,000 by using a perfectly legal method that hasn't been declared (whatever that is) then you're cheating.

The questions are - has that happened or not, and can you prove it or not.
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DOK

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 09:53* »
...
DOK et all, This has absolutely nothing to do with company law or tax legislation

If I somehow gave you the impression I thought this had anything to do with company law/tax legislation then I apologise. I've always assumed Saracens pay their taxes. In BQ's example above, they could claim they only pay £250,000 for the salary cap, but as long as they tell the taxman they actually paid £350,000, then all is OK regarding HMRC.

Fursty

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Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
« Reply #44 on: Tuesday 05-Mar-2019, 10:09* »
If I somehow gave you the impression I thought this had anything to do with company law/tax legislation then I apologise. I've always assumed Saracens pay their taxes. In BQ's example above, they could claim they only pay £250,000 for the salary cap, but as long as they tell the taxman they actually paid £350,000, then all is OK regarding HMRC.

Apologies having r-read your post you weren't suggesting that - others however were  :)

 

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