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How to fix the error count that's killing us?
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Having travelled to Clermont to watch us get annihilated, being a sucker for punishment tonight I re-watched the match on TV. What struck me was the number of error that killed our momentum at critical points, especially those that "released pressure" when we'd got into great attacking positions.

This has happened in most matches this season. Gustard reels off the errors after each game in his interview. But seem unable to fix it. What's the solution: change the coaches ? Change the players? Both? Or just hope it will somehow get better ?!
 
H1
1” Brown knocks fwd, Evans catches, Ref give pen for offside - Pen 3pts to Clermont
4” Scrum in Clermont 22 - Penalty (PR = pressure release)
6” Attack near Clermont 22 - Brown passes to Ibotoy’s knees, knock on (PR)
10” Saili throws a loose pass into thin air on 10m line, bounces  - Clermont try 7pts
12” Ibotoye isolated on Clermont 10m line - turned over (PR)
14” Quins Scrum on Clermont 10m - early push, Free kick Clermont  (PR)
17” Brown catches but then drops ball in tackle on 10m line - turned over - cross kick - Clermont try 7pts
24” Young soft tackle, drops off Yato - try Clermont 7pts
34” Great kick from Care, line-out in 22, Young collapses maul - Pen Clermont (PR)
34” Quins pen, kick to 22 for line out, turned over (PR)
36” on Clermont 22, Brown passes round Ibotoye’s knees (again) (PR)

H2
41” on Clermont 22, Symonds knocks on (PR)
45” Quins win pen, line out half way, line out stolen (PR)
45” Smith tackles Mola, but lets go, 2 other players fall of tackle, try under post - Clermont try 7pts
52” Lang kicks direct miles into touch from Quins 22
57” win turnover, kick for line out on Clermont 22, lost line-out (again) (PR)
65” quick tap, ball 5m out, turned over (PR)
80” on 5 yard line, chance for losing BP, obstruction, pen to Clermont (PR)
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #1 on: »
Well according to D Tel this morning Joe Marler expects to play on Sat so that might help the scrum. Not sure how you ‘fix’ people dropping the ball?
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #2 on: »
Optional defence I would say is our biggest problem
Anyone opposition coach knows that if they have. Big lad they can just run down the wing and score, same happened at Saints, Worcster game etc
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Putneyquin on Tuesday 19-Nov-2019, 22:45*
Having travelled to Clermont to watch us get annihilated, being a sucker for punishment tonight I re-watched the match on TV. What struck me was the number of error that killed our momentum at critical points, especially those that "released pressure" when we'd got into great attacking positions.

This has happened in most matches this season. Gustard reels off the errors after each game in his interview. But seem unable to fix it. What's the solution: change the coaches ? Change the players? Both? Or just hope it will somehow get better ?!
 
H1
1” Brown knocks fwd, Evans catches, Ref give pen for offside - Pen 3pts to Clermont
4” Scrum in Clermont 22 - Penalty (PR = pressure release)
6” Attack near Clermont 22 - Brown passes to Ibotoy’s knees, knock on (PR)
10” Saili throws a loose pass into thin air on 10m line, bounces  - Clermont try 7pts
12” Ibotoye isolated on Clermont 10m line - turned over (PR)
14” Quins Scrum on Clermont 10m - early push, Free kick Clermont  (PR)
17” Brown catches but then drops ball in tackle on 10m line - turned over - cross kick - Clermont try 7pts
24” Young soft tackle, drops off Yato - try Clermont 7pts
34” Great kick from Care, line-out in 22, Young collapses maul - Pen Clermont (PR)
34” Quins pen, kick to 22 for line out, turned over (PR)
36” on Clermont 22, Brown passes round Ibotoye’s knees (again) (PR)

H2
41” on Clermont 22, Symonds knocks on (PR)
45” Quins win pen, line out half way, line out stolen (PR)
45” Smith tackles Mola, but lets go, 2 other players fall of tackle, try under post - Clermont try 7pts
52” Lang kicks direct miles into touch from Quins 22
57” win turnover, kick for line out on Clermont 22, lost line-out (again) (PR)
65” quick tap, ball 5m out, turned over (PR)
80” on 5 yard line, chance for losing BP, obstruction, pen to Clermont (PR)

Thanks for the (painful but helpful) analysis — sadly I remember most of them ...

Feels like a combination of reasons, but several seem to me to be down to individual player inadequacies (not their fault, really, they are just not quite good enough to play at this level — e.g. Young — or not performing up to expectations — e.g. Baldwin — or currently too inexperienced, but we still have to play them to enable them to get that experience — e.g. Ibitoye).
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Monte on Wednesday 20-Nov-2019, 06:20*
Not sure how you ‘fix’ people dropping the ball?

 -By dropping them.
 -Refer them back to the skills coach until fixed; or possibly to the careers advice officer.
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #5 on: »
It was noticeable how many of our passes made the receiver have to alter his stride in order to collect it (often at shoulder height)
whereas their passing seemed in general to go straight along the line without effecting their stride
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #6 on: »
affecting
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #7 on: »
If only it was as easy to fix problems on the pitch as it is to fix grammatical ones eh?
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #8 on: »
31 missed tackles was the problem.
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #9 on: »
Is it just me or have we struggled with dropping the ball/knocking on/not controlling the ball and keeping it in the ruck until we're ready to pass for a long time? And I mean more than other teams.

I can't remember a time I've ever felt entirely calm when we attack - I'm always anticipating a handling error. Either getting dominated in a contact situation, or a counter-ruck causing the ball to squirt out of the back of our side of the ruck while our 9 is looking the other way, or just a poor pass, or the intended receiver taking his eyes off the ball.

I don't know if there's anywhere we can get those particular stats - they probably all get lumped under "forced/unforced errors" - but I'm convinced we're consistently one of the worst offenders (if not, THE worst) in the Prem. And then, of course, the issue becomes even more limiting against the ruthless star-studded French sides in Europe.
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #10 on: »
I have to say, and I've really bit my tongue a lot of times, scrubbed out messages ready to send, because this is practically heresy but...

Is Nev a good attack and backs coach?
Is Adam Jones a good scrum coach?

They both came into coaching with little other coaching experience. I know AJ has had a good affect/effect on Kyle, but that's prop to prop stuff.
One thing I've always said, John Kingston was a great scrum coach. I'm not advocating getting him back, but to me he was better than AJ. If so, are there not better scrum coaches somewhere out there?

Similarly with attack/backs coach.  I know Nev can walk the walk, but can he talk the talk? We seem to rely on the individual skills of players to break the line rather than being able to force it to happen from a plan to drag the opposition left, right, left until we make a hole and then run through it with good support runners. I do notice Nev has lost that tag of "skills coach". If only we could teach catching the ball, not knocking on, catching a high ball, passing ahead of the player, running through the gap instead of seeking contact - maybe we do need a skills coach.

Is this heresy or am I making sense here?

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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #11 on: »
Thou shalt be excommunicated forthwith!

Don't know if you are right but there is definitely something amiss. This rotation policy does not sit right with me, personally, although it may largely be to do with absentees and injuries. I was then going to say that if things haven't improved by Xmas then we should start worrying but realised we have only 2 Premiership games (1 away) and 3 HC games before Xmas so, if you will excuse me, I am going to start worrying right now.
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: DOK on Wednesday 20-Nov-2019, 19:41*
I have to say, and I've really bit my tongue a lot of times, scrubbed out messages ready to send, because this is practically heresy but...

Is Nev a good attack and backs coach?
Is Adam Jones a good scrum coach?

They both came into coaching with little other coaching experience. I know AJ has had a good affect/effect on Kyle, but that's prop to prop stuff.
One thing I've always said, John Kingston was a great scrum coach. I'm not advocating getting him back, but to me he was better than AJ. If so, are there not better scrum coaches somewhere out there?

Similarly with attack/backs coach.  I know Nev can walk the walk, but can he talk the talk? We seem to rely on the individual skills of players to break the line rather than being able to force it to happen from a plan to drag the opposition left, right, left until we make a hole and then run through it with good support runners. I do notice Nev has lost that tag of "skills coach". If only we could teach catching the ball, not knocking on, catching a high ball, passing ahead of the player, running through the gap instead of seeking contact - maybe we do need a skills coach.

Is this heresy or am I making sense here?

It's a good point. No one can deny that the two were great players so would certainly be respected by those they coach and would be welcomed to coaching roles by supporters for their achievements in the game. However this doesn't necessarily mean they will be any better coaches than someone with a far lower profile but with a few more coaching seasons under their belt.

Personally I am always a little wary when I see a retired players going almost straight into senior coaching positions. I'd rather see them working longer alongside experienced coaches to develop their skills.

Of course the announcement of a Nick Evans or an Adam Jones to a senior coaching position will create far more enthusiasm from supporters than the appointment of someone far less known but that doesn't necessarily make it better.
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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: Cookie on Wednesday 20-Nov-2019, 16:47*
31 missed tackles was the problem.

Indeed.  It is much more of a problem if the exit strategy includes a SH generated box kick just beyond the 22. 

Even worse if the attacking team have done their pre game analysis and can see the box kick being set up from 100 miles away.  Licking their lips in anticipation they move big runners into midfield whilst our SH fusses about pulling more forwards into protecting his kicking zone. 

In this all too common scenario missed tackles are most certainly a problem.  Put simply, if you ain't gong to tackle don't give the opposition clean attacking ball just outside your own 22.  Particularly if the defending forwards have been dragged out of position into a caterpillar. 

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Re: How to fix the error count that's killing us?
« Reply #14 on: »
I don't think it's heretical whatsoever. There is no evidence that either have been good coaches.
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