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Author Topic: How to stop this happening in the future  (Read 952 times)

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M3quin

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How to stop this happening in the future
« on: Thursday 07-Nov-2019, 17:45* »
Should in the future, not retrospectively, it be stated that if players are involved in irregularities, they are deemed to equally be to blame.  They have a lot to loose.  The Saracens players in joint agreements with Wray knew this was wrong.  Also have to say so did players in bloodgate.  However from now on they would know that they are equally culpable if found out.  PRL and RFU could have confidential whistle blowing procedure in place.  In the world of compliance you find this stops a lot of problems before they even begin.  It would mean that players would face possible career ending penalties if found to be involved, which some may feel is unfair, but it could prevent it from even starting.

Fearless Fred

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 07-Nov-2019, 18:12* »
I'm not sure that the players are at fault here, to be fair. Unless they're studying to be lawyers after they hang up their boots, they wouldn't have looked into this with a qualified eye. They will have been told by the club/Wray that this was all hunky-dorey & had no reason to doubt those assurances.

I would say that Wray should be forced to resign & be barred from being the backer of any sports team again. This is the second time* where he's flouted the regulations in pursuit of silverware & titles. That surely is the mark of someone not meeting a "fit & proper person" test.

*Yes, I know that technically Sarries & Bath weren't guilty last time because they paid a "settlement fee", but the other club boards, chairmen & CEOs know what happened & know what Wray did last time. I have a feeling that's why they're being more open & vocal about it now. They thought that they'd managed to tamp it down last time only for Wray to decide to thumb his nose at all the other clubs & carry on with his financial doping.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #2 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 08:51* »
Each individual player will have no idea where the overall salary cap stands and the Club are not about to tell him.
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harlequins

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #3 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 09:25* »
Each individual player will have no idea where the overall salary cap stands and the Club are not about to tell him.

Are you saying no player has wondered how so many internationals can play for one club? are you saying they all think they are being paid more than everyone else?

never sleep

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #4 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 09:27* »
If a player is receiving money offshore though, or housing in another country, or benefits for his family, then this should be declared.  The players would know that this is dodgy ground.
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DOK

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #5 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 09:27* »
Why financial regulation is key to the future of pro rugby

Trevor Watkins, global head of sport at international law firm Pinsent Masons, runs the rule over Saracens’ massive fine and points deduction for salary cap infringements and suggests relegation may be been even more effective.

Quinten Poulsen

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #6 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 09:29* »
Wondering and knowing are completely different things. If Wray categorically assured players that certain benefits were exempt from the cap (assuming a player or agent was even suspicious in the first place) and he'd gone as far as getting legal advice on the matter then no one in their right mind should question a player's honesty or morality.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #7 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 09:41* »
Also, it is plausible that the player may assume it is as rife at other clubs as blood capsules were...

Monte

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #8 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 11:39* »
As I said yesterday Owen Slot has seen evidence of Off Shore accounts for Image rights payments and I think I am right in saying that will be tax evasion rather than avoidance. As we have not seen the full review it is hard to know what they have found.

harlequins

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #9 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 12:55* »
Also, it is plausible that the player may assume it is as rife at other clubs as blood capsules were...

 I cannot believe that. The Cheats were buying up every international going. Other clubs were not doing that.

exdublinquin

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #10 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 13:18* »
I am not sure that although there is a salary cap breach, based on PRL regulation, it can be assumed there is also a breach of tax legislation.
Interestingly, if all “arrangements” were properly reported and taxed in accordance with UK and other applicable tax laws, and IF such arrangements were taxable, then Saracens felt the salary cap rules gave a different interpretation than tax law.
Again, as said, this assumes that tax law does see such arrangements as taxable. Without all the precise facts of structure that may difficult to conclude.

Bucksquin

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #11 on: Friday 08-Nov-2019, 16:31* »
Why financial regulation is key to the future of pro rugby

Trevor Watkins, global head of sport at international law firm Pinsent Masons, runs the rule over Saracens’ massive fine and points deduction for salary cap infringements and suggests relegation may be been even more effective.

Excellent little article. Excerpt:

"Saracens have said they’ll appeal. Most likely seeking to challenge the rules themselves on the basis that they are anti-competitive; it’s an argument that has been made before and is increasingly one deployed to challenge decisions of sporting bodies. We’ve used it ourselves five or six times to overturn similar situations. However, to do so the club would need to demonstrate that the rules themselves either did not have a legitimate aim or even if they did were disproportionate."

Assuming this is what happens, and assuming further that Wray is successful in arguing in court (I assume he'd have to go to court to do this) that the rules are anti-competitive, won't that simply make him and Saracens even more of a pariah? Then the other clubs would/should refuse to play them. Then Wray would have to go back into court to make them play them. And so it goes on, and all the while Wray is dragging the good name of rugby through the mud. 

poorfour

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 09-Nov-2019, 09:01* »
One option might be to make players accountable for financial disclosure. If they each disclose their income and tax position confidentially to the cap commissioner, it makes it much harder for a club to hide any irregularities.

A player won't be penalised for full disclosure, but could be for withholding information.

I don't see how a salary cap can be deemed anti competitive. It's a commercial arrangement between peers that is designed to ensure the competitiveness and financial sustainability of all of them. If caps hold in the US, then I can't imagine any other jurisdiction being tougher on them.
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MadMax

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 09-Nov-2019, 11:24* »
One option might be to make players accountable for financial disclosure. If they each disclose their income and tax position confidentially to the cap commissioner, it makes it much harder for a club to hide any irregularities.

A player won't be penalised for full disclosure, but could be for withholding information.

I don't see how a salary cap can be deemed anti competitive. It's a commercial arrangement between peers that is designed to ensure the competitiveness and financial sustainability of all of them. If caps hold in the US, then I can't imagine any other jurisdiction being tougher on them.

I believe they can be deemed anti-competitive if you have been cheating them for years in order to win trophies  :)
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Quinky

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Re: How to stop this happening in the future
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 09-Nov-2019, 13:27* »
Are you saying no player has wondered how so many internationals can play for one club? are you saying they all think they are being paid more than everyone else?
It's not relevant though. The cap applies to the group of players. Individually I'd doubt any of them breached the cap! Hence, none of them individually can be responsible. As a group, they won't know the full picture.

As mentioned earlier, I think it's a great idea to compel players to report their remuneration package to an independent body. It would definitely show whether the club was being honest.

 

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