Author Topic: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nigel Me (Read 871 times)

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #15 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 11:29* »

Quote from: Quanks on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 11:24*

That's the problem without even looking - they don't. Taking only players capped in the last 5 years (as assuming that only these have a realistic chance of a recall, and I don't have the time to go through older players to check if they have retired) NZ have 28 players with 30+ caps and England have 28. The NZ list includes players like Dan Carter and Victor Vito who they can't select anymore as well, but I left them in as in theory they could tear up their internal rules and pick them (for balance I left Joe Marler in the England list).

NZ go through wingers quite quickly, but the bulk of their team is pretty steady.

Serves me right for setting my threshold too low. Would be interested to see how that scales up to 40+, 50+ and so on. I'm confident my point will come out in the wash as you go up the checkpoints. If it doesn't then bang goes that theory.

I still maintain that there is an innate selection problem in the England setup. Maybe I just haven't pinpointed the nub of it.

JammyGit · « **Reply #16 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 11:35* »

Yeah I'm not sure this whole not rewarding form thing is accurate.

Eddie's picked a lot of players right from the start and many have come through on form - Sinckler, Moon, Genge, Curry(x2), Underhill, Simmonds, Wilson, Slade, Lozowski, etc.

Yes, he's made some odd choices - hello Brad Shields - but even Te'o was genuinely excellent for England coming off the bench during that initial streak of wins.

Rewarding form uber alles means lots of inexperienced players, though.

Boonie · « **Reply #17 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 11:51* »

This argument was made after the 2003 World Cup, when a lot of players retired, and again after 2007. Immediately after a WC is the time to get the youngsters in and start playing with combinations. The first year of competition after a WC is less important than the one just prior, and I would love to see a genuinely experimental side emerge post WC that takes the best of the Prem players and looks at the next WC cycle. We'd not like to see England come bottom of the 6N immediately after a WC, but if it meant we had a good pool to pick from and could start to bed those players in, such that we had an excellent squad available for the next WC, would that be so bad? You cannot go all youngsters; you need some old heads in there, but the balance should shift significantly to the younger players to see if they have what it takes. If they don't, at least you find out early enough.

As has been said above - bit late for this WC!

A222Quin · « **Reply #18 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 12:17* »

The idea of experimenting makes sense post WC, I agree. How far do you take it though - are players that are 27/28 who generally would have another WC left in them discarded with eyes on the next WC?

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #19 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 12:43* »

It's obviously not all about age but as a benchmark let's aim to bring in a bunch of 20-24 year olds immediately post WC - those are the guys who are going to hit their straps come 2023. Maybe it seems young but I was astonished to realise recently that Marchant is still only 22. This is what I mean - there are "experienced" Prem players out there who are lighting up the Prem and have been for years - and a whole batch of those have at least 2 WCs in them after this one. Marchant is one, Thorley another (okay, he's less experienced but is just bursting with talent and confidence).

One area I do think Eddie has really helped us is in the back row - we now have two young, genuinely world class 7s in Curry and Underhill. Where's the next Robshaw? Maybe Jack Willis? Mark Wilson has been great as a stop gap but won't be there in 2023 so he should make way. Dombrandt straight in to share game time with big Billy.

You start to see where you can build strength in depth. Tuilagi is back to the type of player we want to see at 12 and will make it to 2023. Joe Coka, Ellis Genge, Sinck, Maro. Those are the players in there already that you start to build around and bring through guys in and around that age group so eventually you find you have a whole team of leaders rather than a few who have 40 more caps than everyone else.

I really don't see why it's such rocket science to say that anyone approaching 30 should be dropped post-WC. But as above, we have this every time a WC comes and goes and I guarantee Ben Youngs will still be our 9 next 6N. Which just illustrates the problem I have with the short term selection decisions that have plagued England since 2003.

Brown Bottle · « **Reply #20 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:03* »

If only you were the England coach, eh, TomBuckQuin? :)

Yareet · « **Reply #21 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:06* »

Few points:

Only one Curry has been capped. Ben has been on BaaBaas squads and went to Argentina but for whatever reason Eddie doesn't pick him. Maybe he doesn't realise there are two of them.

Could the reason why Leicester are struggling be partly because they are losing almost half a team for a batch of Prem matches?

Interesting that Cole, Youngs, Te'o and Daly were all highlighted as people who shouldn't be in an England shirt All of them were picked for the Lions tour so both Eddie and Warren seem to rate them.

Ideally we would start each World Cup cycle by blooding new players, spend 2-3 years finding our 31 and then play them for the last year of the cycle. As has been alluded to howwever, this could mean a disappointing 6N every 4 years and especially in 2016 it was crucial that England got wins under their belt ASAP. The post-Lions slump in '18 meant that we had to re-build again and that period gave us the likes of Hepburn, Curry and Wilson.

Post RWC '19, I can see us reverting to a more traditional cycle but are we prepared to see results suffer for it?

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #22 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:07* »

Quote from: Brown Bottle on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:03*

If only you were the England coach, eh, TomBuckQuin? :)

If only :P

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #23 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:29* »

Quote from: Yareet on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:06*

Few points:

Only one Curry has been capped. Ben has been on BaaBaas squads and went to Argentina but for whatever reason Eddie doesn't pick him. Maybe he doesn't realise there are two of them.

Could the reason why Leicester are struggling be partly because they are losing almost half a team for a batch of Prem matches?

Interesting that Cole, Youngs, Te'o and Daly were all highlighted as people who shouldn't be in an England shirt All of them were picked for the Lions tour so both Eddie and Warren seem to rate them.

Ideally we would start each World Cup cycle by blooding new players, spend 2-3 years finding our 31 and then play them for the last year of the cycle. As has been alluded to howwever, this could mean a disappointing 6N every 4 years and especially in 2016 it was crucial that England got wins under their belt ASAP. The post-Lions slump in '18 meant that we had to re-build again and that period gave us the likes of Hepburn, Curry and Wilson.

Post RWC '19, I can see us reverting to a more traditional cycle but are we prepared to see results suffer for it?

Cole, Youngs and Te'o should all make way post-WC (Te'o should make way now, tbh). All too slow at international level. Daly I have no problem with - on the wing or maybe as an option at 13 if he gets a run there for Sarries and looks good. He has an England future - just not at 15.

Tom Curry is the find of recent years for me - can see him and Maro sharing the England captaincy in future years if they both stay relatively injury free.

Totally agree with the 3 year trial and error period, 1 year lockdown for WC. But that needs to start from a more radical starting point than it has previously. Yes, I'd take a poor 6N in 2020 - it's not like we've had consistently good ones anyway with the approach of having "experienced" guys mixed in for consistency of selection. I actually think a lot of people would be surprised what happens when you don't give so much weight to international experience in your matchday 23 selection when you're giving young players a chance - and post-WC is indeed the time to chuck 'em in at the deep end.

Out of interest, if you guys had to pick an England starting XV for this WC final against NZ based PURELY on talent and form and not at all on number of caps (for the sake of argument imagine all English players currently playing have 75 caps), what would it look like?

Yareet · « **Reply #24 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:36* »

Quote from: TomBuckQuin on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:29*

Cole, Youngs and Te'o should all make way post-WC (Te'o should make way now, tbh). All too slow at international level.

So in the space of two years (or less for Te'o) they go from the best 2/3 in the British Isles to not even the best 2/3 in England? I'm not saying they should all be in the starting XV but multiple successful international coaches (not just Eddie and Gatland but their backroom staffs as well) see something that we don't.

A222Quin · « **Reply #25 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:42* »

And also in all this. Are we purely building towards World Cup cycles and relegating the 6 nations?

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #26 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 14:00* »

Te'o only went on the Lions tour because there was no other "big" 12 available. Tuilagi was injured, Roberts past it, Aki/Parkes weren't established on the international scene. He has ridden one of those weird waves of hype you get when you switch from RL to RU. He's been underwhelming at best and in my eyes he's pretty much entirely useless. For a guy who is so physiologically fortunate to make so little impact on a game still baffles me. I'm so, so glad he's not a Quins player. Then again, he hasn't really held Wuss back too much this season either - he's been on holiday for most of it. The guy is the true definition of "journeyman".

Cole is just suffering the symptoms of being older - was a great servant to England, now just off the pace and a penalty magnet. We really are lacking depth here and that's why he's still trotting out for England. This is an area of absolute priority now as well as post-WC.

Youngs has been a slug at scrum half for too many years now. He's had more than enough chances. He's steady and consistent in what he does (box kick and act as metronome to keep phase play as slow as possible) but we need more. We've needed more for a long time. Give Robson a chance and if he falls short there are plenty of young English 9s chomping at the bit - Bristol have two really snappy scrum halves, Gloucester have two worth a look, Ben Spencer could do with a run of games... And before I'm accused of bias, I think Danny has had enough chances too - he just seems to crumble as soon as he puts the England 9 shirt on - and obviously isn't a realistic option for WC 2023 anyway. My best summary for this one: compare Youngs to Faf and Reinach. They set the pace, tone, everything for their team. When have you last seen Youngs do that? We need a MUCH quicker player at 9 for England.

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #27 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 14:06* »

Quote from: A222Quin on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 13:42*

And also in all this. Are we purely building towards World Cup cycles and relegating the 6 nations?

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Who says playing younger, faster, more in form (admittedly less-capped) players would sabotage our 6N chances? It's not like we've been consistently 1st/2nd in the 6N when selecting our supposedly experienced players!

Brown Bottle · « **Reply #28 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 14:13* »

Quote from: TomBuckQuin

... Bristol have two really snappy scrum halves ...

Thought they were at the wrong end of the table?

TomBuckQuin · « **Reply #29 on:** Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 14:18* »

Quote from: Brown Bottle on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 14:13*

Thought they were at the wrong end of the table?

See what you did there but giving one of their young English scrum halves a shot is not quite the same as selecting a third of their first XV is it?

Newcomers Start Here

Harlequins/Rugby Links

Articles

Author Topic: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nigel Me (Read 871 times)

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

JammyGit

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

Boonie

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

A222Quin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

Brown Bottle

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

Yareet

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

Yareet

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

A222Quin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

Brown Bottle

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

TomBuckQuin

Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even in Championship, says RFU boss Nige

User

Site Statistics