+- +-

+-Newcomers Start Here

+-Harlequins/Rugby Links


+-Articles


Author Topic: New tackle law  (Read 1102 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Boonie

  • A Team Captain
  • **
  • Posts: 433
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #15 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 10:34* »
And again@

« Last Edit: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 16:06* by Admin »

Fearless Fred

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3776
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #16 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 11:05* »
I understand Hamilton's point that a "seatbelt" tackle rarely causes injury. However, a tackle at *the same height* where the arm is parallel to the shoulders could end up with a lariat/clothesline action leading to serious throat damage/injury. It might not be ideal, but given the evidence cited in the article that Boonie has quoted, there needs to be some changes to the high tackle to reduce the injuries to both players.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3838
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #17 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 11:06* »
I've sometimes wondered about asking Hawk-Eye if they could supply the TMO with something that would show where the tackler would have hit if a player hadn't been falling. Same with players jumping for the ball - "was this player ever going to be able to contest the ball?"

It's well within their technical capabilities - I suppose the question would then come down to "could you have anticipated it?"

Now that is a perfect solution to the forward pass argument.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3838
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #18 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 11:15* »
On the tackle height, I was taught to always go for the legs as they couldn't run anywhere if you took their legs. It seems that these days the tackle has got higher to not only stop the opponent but also to dislodge the ball. I can see why they are trialling things for Player Safety but back in the day I don't remember there being endless injuries from tackling round the legs and allowing a fellow team mate to gather the ball because in those days if you were tackled you had to release the ball instantly.

T-Bone

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3106
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #19 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 11:48* »
The fact that Hamilton has said he's against it makes me think it's probably a good idea.

poorfour

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3606
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #20 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:04* »
So the evidence says that tackling lower reduces injuries, but two blokes who play below the top tier aren't convinced...

I think it is right to put the onus on the tackler to get it right, albeit with something to allow for a player tripping or falling unexpectedly. The tackler is in more control of the contact than the ball carrier, and there's a lot we can do to teach better tackling technique.

When they say 'it's going to be less natural' what they actually mean is 'we've never learned to tackle low'. It's much like the changes to the scrum engagement: players adapt or they get left behind. We've gone from lumps like JJ to more compact players like Kyle who have trained for a different kind of strength, and hookers who have some idea how to hook.

poorfour

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3606
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #21 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:05* »
I've sometimes wondered about asking Hawk-Eye if they could supply the TMO with something that would show where the tackler would have hit if a player hadn't been falling. Same with players jumping for the ball - "was this player ever going to be able to contest the ball?"

It's well within their technical capabilities - I suppose the question would then come down to "could you have anticipated it?"

Now that is a perfect solution to the forward pass argument.

Actually - it would be, wouldn't it? Though I don't know if fans would accept "was the initial direction backwards" as opposed to "did it actually go backwards"...

deadlyfrom5yardsout

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3838
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #22 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:20* »
As a cricketer, table tennis player and golfer I can testify to the skills involved in getting a ball to where you want it to be using side, bias and spin as well as strength (ie I don't have them..) and I cannot believe that pro rugby players are incapable of ensuring that the ball arrives no more than flat to where it came from.

T-Bone

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3106
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #23 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:35* »
So the evidence says that tackling lower reduces injuries, but two blokes who play below the top tier aren't convinced...

I think it is right to put the onus on the tackler to get it right, albeit with something to allow for a player tripping or falling unexpectedly. The tackler is in more control of the contact than the ball carrier, and there's a lot we can do to teach better tackling technique.

When they say 'it's going to be less natural' what they actually mean is 'we've never learned to tackle low'. It's much like the changes to the scrum engagement: players adapt or they get left behind. We've gone from lumps like JJ to more compact players like Kyle who have trained for a different kind of strength, and hookers who have some idea how to hook.

This

The current generation of top players must have learnt at junior level how to tackle the old fashioned way but have since been coached to tackle higher, so they will simply have to adjust. As we've seen with the concussions, players can be their own worst enemies.



raedarius

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1565
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #24 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:43* »
I'm sure COS will look to exploit this by bringing in some absurd new head-nodding running style...

poorfour

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3606
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #25 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:56* »
As a cricketer, table tennis player and golfer I can testify to the skills involved in getting a ball to where you want it to be using side, bias and spin as well as strength (ie I don't have them..) and I cannot believe that pro rugby players are incapable of ensuring that the ball arrives no more than flat to where it came from.

But as a cricketer and table tennis player you're equipped with a rigid surface to deflect the ball's momentum in a different direction, and as a golfer you're starting with a static ball. The issue with rugby is twofold:
1) Firstly, a player running at full tilt starts with the ball having significant forward momentum, which is in practical terms almost impossible to overcome
2) Secondly, the player you're trying to pass to is almost never in the position where they would have to be to catch a ball that would actually be moving backwards.

Imagine, for simplicity, Jonny May at full tilt trying to pass to, say, Elliot Daly behind him. Jonny's running at Bolt-speed, let's say 10m per second, and the pass takes half a second to complete.

For the pass to go backwards relative to the pitch, it needs to be thrown backwards at greater than 10 m/s. That's really quite hard to do. You can go out and try it: put a line of cones on the ground, run full tilt at them and as you pass them try to make the ball land behind them. It's not easy.

And the second factor is that Jonny himself continues moving forwards at 10m/s, and Elliot is moving at close to the same pace. For Elliot to be behind where Jonny started when the pass completes, he needs to be >5m behind Jonny when it starts, say 6m to be sure it doesn't get called.

How often do you actually see players line up that deep? If the scrum half was on half way, the first receiver would be closer to the 10m, the second receiver would be past the 10m, the outside centre would be nearly half way to the 22 and the winger would be a few steps in front of the 22. Of course, that assumes all the players are moving fast - and the depth is less necessary if one or more of them is static and moving slowly - but you don't see that depth, because it would make passes far too vulnerable to interception.

In practical terms, it makes more sense to look at the direction of the pass than to try to force a strict backwards pass.

poorfour

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3606
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #26 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 12:58* »
I'm sure COS will look to exploit this by bringing in some absurd new head-nodding running style...

Handoffs aren't allowed until quite late in mini-rugby, and Poorfour Jr developed a running style to prevent himself from inadvertently doing them that involved him tucking his elbows in tightly and hunching over the ball. One consequence is that he's almost impossible to tackle legally - though very few refs pick up on it.

raedarius

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1565
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #27 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 13:08* »
I'm sure COS will look to exploit this by bringing in some absurd new head-nodding running style...

Handoffs aren't allowed until quite late in mini-rugby, and Poorfour Jr developed a running style to prevent himself from inadvertently doing them that involved him tucking his elbows in tightly and hunching over the ball. One consequence is that he's almost impossible to tackle legally - though very few refs pick up on it.

Interesting. My son developed the tactic of avoiding hand offs by batting away tacklers' hands with his free hand instead. Helps that he's over 6 ft tall at age 12 so pretty much untacklable until the others catch up with his growth. Refs don't like it but struggle to find a way to penalise it.

deadlyfrom5yardsout

  • Lions Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 3838
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #28 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 13:59* »
As a cricketer, table tennis player and golfer I can testify to the skills involved in getting a ball to where you want it to be using side, bias and spin as well as strength (ie I don't have them..) and I cannot believe that pro rugby players are incapable of ensuring that the ball arrives no more than flat to where it came from.

I understand what you are saying, I really do. My point is that if you are going to have a no forward pass law and you can't be sure your pass won't be forward, then don't make the pass. Alternatively, file the forward pass law in the same bin as straight put ins.

But as a cricketer and table tennis player you're equipped with a rigid surface to deflect the ball's momentum in a different direction, and as a golfer you're starting with a static ball. The issue with rugby is twofold:
1) Firstly, a player running at full tilt starts with the ball having significant forward momentum, which is in practical terms almost impossible to overcome
2) Secondly, the player you're trying to pass to is almost never in the position where they would have to be to catch a ball that would actually be moving backwards.

Imagine, for simplicity, Jonny May at full tilt trying to pass to, say, Elliot Daly behind him. Jonny's running at Bolt-speed, let's say 10m per second, and the pass takes half a second to complete.

For the pass to go backwards relative to the pitch, it needs to be thrown backwards at greater than 10 m/s. That's really quite hard to do. You can go out and try it: put a line of cones on the ground, run full tilt at them and as you pass them try to make the ball land behind them. It's not easy.

And the second factor is that Jonny himself continues moving forwards at 10m/s, and Elliot is moving at close to the same pace. For Elliot to be behind where Jonny started when the pass completes, he needs to be >5m behind Jonny when it starts, say 6m to be sure it doesn't get called.

How often do you actually see players line up that deep? If the scrum half was on half way, the first receiver would be closer to the 10m, the second receiver would be past the 10m, the outside centre would be nearly half way to the 22 and the winger would be a few steps in front of the 22. Of course, that assumes all the players are moving fast - and the depth is less necessary if one or more of them is static and moving slowly - but you don't see that depth, because it would make passes far too vulnerable to interception.

In practical terms, it makes more sense to look at the direction of the pass than to try to force a strict backwards pass.

Mr_B

  • Academy Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Re: New tackle law
« Reply #29 on: Friday 27-Jul-2018, 16:23* »
so just duck down as soon as you are about to be tackled and you stand a great chance of penalty against tackler or card. You have to allow for players ducking in to avoid tackles, the tackler has responsibility foremost but the person being tackled also has a responsibility that you cant ignore.
We all want a safer game but not something that could turn into a farce. I can remember getting clouted a few times on the noggin when tackling low, runners skipping out of the tackle and catching my head with their boot so not sure that is going to be the answer.

 

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 

Login with your social network

Forgot your password?

+-Site Statistics

Members
Total Members: 1162
Latest: Marsi1e
New This Month: 2
New This Week: 1
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 119478
Total Topics: 6383
Most Online Today: 387
Most Online Ever: 4089
(Sunday 10-Oct-2021, 12:56*)
Users Online
Members: 6
Guests: 232
Total: 238