Author Topic: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations? (Read 1595 times)

Pat · « **Reply #15 on:** Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 12:54* »

Definately should be relegation. Gives other countries a chance to progress.

Brown Bottle · « **Reply #16 on:** Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 12:59* »

Quote from: Pat on Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 12:54*

Definately should be relegation. Gives other countries a chance to progress.

If you measure progress as being stuffed 5 times every couple of years or so.

TeddingtonQuin · « **Reply #17 on:** Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 20:31* »

Quote from: Rocker on Saturday 01-Feb-2020, 22:30*

Except that they played each other just over a year ago and Georgia got handily beaten....
They wouldn't be any more competitive than Italy. Go back to 5 Nations and a real 2nd they comp with Italy, Georgia, Spain and whoever the next 2 ranked European tabs are...
Argentina should be in an Americas comp with USA, Canada, Uruguay and?? Get Japan into the Tri nations. Maybe the books should play in the 6 Nations. I'm sure there are as many Bok supporters in SW London and Surrey as there are in Cape Town and Jo'burg.....

Georgia though haven't been given the advantage that Italy have had by playing in the 6N for 20+ years but have been improving at a much quicker pace. I think they should be given a chance to take the opportunity that Italy have wasted

A222Quin · « **Reply #18 on:** Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 21:04* »

Georgia would come in and be stuffed in the same way Italy have been. I suppose they may as well give them a go but I don’t see it ending any differently.

Slightly off beam rant here but I find myself caring much less about the 6 nations these days. Italy were mindless yesterday, same old same old. France have a performance in them, let’s see if they can keep it up. Scotland lose more than they win but their game against England. BBC coverage is staler than a 2 week old loaf covered in mould. The sheer bias from all Celtic pundits except Paul O Connell. England’s performances analysed 5x everyone else’s. The fixtures - mix them up FFS. Yes, it’ll take a year to correct but it’s tedious to have the same set up year after year after year.

TeddingtonQuin · « **Reply #19 on:** Monday 03-Feb-2020, 19:57* »

Quote from: A222Quin on Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 21:04*

Georgia would come in and be stuffed in the same way Italy have been. I suppose they may as well give them a go but I don’t see it ending any differently.

Slightly off beam rant here but I find myself caring much less about the 6 nations these days. Italy were mindless yesterday, same old same old. France have a performance in them, let’s see if they can keep it up. Scotland lose more than they win but their game against England. BBC coverage is staler than a 2 week old loaf covered in mould. The sheer bias from all Celtic pundits except Paul O Connell. England’s performances analysed 5x everyone else’s. The fixtures - mix them up FFS. Yes, it’ll take a year to correct but it’s tedious to have the same set up year after year after year.

Yes, Georgia would get stuffed to start with but would they still be getting stuffed in 5 years time? I think they would make more progress in 5 than Italy have done on 20+, judging by the way they've improved

Agree totally on the Celtic pundits, so biased and one eyed, embarrassing listening to them! POC, although he sounds very dull was fair and insightful. I've still not forgiven him though for beating us single handed in that QF!

T-Bone · « **Reply #20 on:** Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 10:33* »

Quote from: A222Quin on Sunday 02-Feb-2020, 21:04*

Georgia would come in and be stuffed in the same way Italy have been. I suppose they may as well give them a go but I don’t see it ending any differently.

Slightly off beam rant here but I find myself caring much less about the 6 nations these days. Italy were mindless yesterday, same old same old. France have a performance in them, let’s see if they can keep it up. Scotland lose more than they win but their game against England. BBC coverage is staler than a 2 week old loaf covered in mould. The sheer bias from all Celtic pundits except Paul O Connell. England’s performances analysed 5x everyone else’s. The fixtures - mix them up FFS. Yes, it’ll take a year to correct but it’s tedious to have the same set up year after year after year.

In terms of the fixtures, how long is the current pattern set? How long does a cycle have to be to work out fairly? Obviously the relative strengths of the teams changes, but the way the fixtures fall can have a huge impact on the eventual standings. For example, it would arguably be better to have fewer home games but to play those two home games against two of Wales, Ireland and France, than to have three home games against Italy, Scotland and one other but then have to play two of Wales, Ireland and France away. There needs to be a fair rotation not only of home and away but also of who those games are against. I'm not sure how it works at the moment

DazzaS · « **Reply #21 on:** Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 10:43* »

I do agree with the option of promotion and relegation, if the countries in the European League see a chance of them getting to the top table, it could be a catalyst to improve, facilities, playign abilities etc. I do think countries such as Georgia deserve a chance. However Ic annot see the executives, the sponsors etc swapping Rome for Tbilisi.

A222Quin · « **Reply #22 on:** Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 10:45* »

Quote from: T-Bone on Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 10:33*

In terms of the fixtures, how long is the current pattern set? How long does a cycle have to be to work out fairly? Obviously the relative strengths of the teams changes, but the way the fixtures fall can have a huge impact on the eventual standings. For example, it would arguably be better to have fewer home games but to play those two home games against two of Wales, Ireland and France, than to have three home games against Italy, Scotland and one other but then have to play two of Wales, Ireland and France away. There needs to be a fair rotation not only of home and away but also of who those games are against. I'm not sure how it works at the moment

The current profile appears to be fixed ad infinitum. It hasn't changed since the 5 became 6 back in 2000!

Fearless Fred · « **Reply #23 on:** Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 11:33* »

Quote from: T-Bone on Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 10:33*

In terms of the fixtures, how long is the current pattern set? How long does a cycle have to be to work out fairly? Obviously the relative strengths of the teams changes, but the way the fixtures fall can have a huge impact on the eventual standings. For example, it would arguably be better to have fewer home games but to play those two home games against two of Wales, Ireland and France, than to have three home games against Italy, Scotland and one other but then have to play two of Wales, Ireland and France away. There needs to be a fair rotation not only of home and away but also of who those games are against. I'm not sure how it works at the moment

That's basically how we have the fixtures now. England play Wales & Ireland at home, all others away one year, and the reverse in the following year. I guess it's possible to shake it up a bit, but all the unions would not want to find that they have only two home games in two consecutive years, purely from a financial standpoint.

As for promotion & relegation, I doubt that will happen, again for financial reasons. Yes, Italy are the usual relegation suspects but Wales, Scotland and France have all finished 6th in the past 20 years. None of them want to risk having a dire year & ending up being relegated. Plus it has been mooted that the promoted team should be promoted for *two* years, so that they can have a chance to have home & away fixtures against all the other teams (again for financial reasons) and the European Championship countries will no doubt also all want a chance to host the relegated team at home so will also push for a two year cycle.

Bolly-Quin · « **Reply #24 on:** Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 14:20* »

There's quite a big difference between Italy and Georgia rugby - the former has ~ 80,000 players in ~ 1000 clubs where as Georgia has ~ 20,000 players in ~ 200 clubs (figures rounded up) however, Italy (12) are only 1 place above Georgia (13) in the IRB table.

Georgia play in the Rugby Europe Championship with Spain (16) Romania (19). These are followed by Russia (20), Belgium (27) and Germany (28). This will be the 4th year of the Championship, which has been won for the last 3 years (i.e. every year it has been played) by Georgia. So if there is a club to be promoted, it should be Georgia. Here are the results and standings from last year:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Rugby_Europe_Championship

I find it hard to foresee any other result than a flip between promoted/relegated club each year, with Italy and Georgia swapping every year (or two years, as FF says): how much good will this do? Unless either country can considerably increase interest and participation, it would be hard to see how they can improve to a point that they would stay "up" every year.

Watching Italian sides play Quins over the years in European rugby, they are getting better - Treviso finished 3rd last year and neither team sit at the bottom of the league tables this year (albeit by one place) but nationally, they have had a poor run of form for the last 6 or 7 years. But I would argue that since 2015 (when no European teams reached SF stage in England RWC), Ireland (several wins against ABs), England (SF win against AB, plus domination of Australia, if not SA) and Wales have all improved a fair deal and winning against mercurial France and Scotland not easy for Italy.

I'd suggest that Italy should stay in 6N (unless Georgia really do push on and overtake them for several years in the IRB table) and that the Rugby Europe Championship be given more prominence - TV viewing here would be a good start - and that Tier 1 "A" tours to those European Tier 2 should increase.

Keen Brexiteers among us might prefer that England unilaterally withdraw from the 6N and join a new league based in Florida with US, Canada and Mexico, just to show we can still win something, if not a good trade deal. ;)

Domestos · « **Reply #25 on:** Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 22:16* »

Quote from: T-Bone on Tuesday 04-Feb-2020, 10:33*

In terms of the fixtures, how long is the current pattern set? How long does a cycle have to be to work out fairly? Obviously the relative strengths of the teams changes, but the way the fixtures fall can have a huge impact on the eventual standings. For example, it would arguably be better to have fewer home games but to play those two home games against two of Wales, Ireland and France, than to have three home games against Italy, Scotland and one other but then have to play two of Wales, Ireland and France away. There needs to be a fair rotation not only of home and away but also of who those games are against. I'm not sure how it works at the moment

Why would it be better to have fewer home games? It is home games where the money is made for all of the six nations.

England play colours (Wales and Ireland) at home one year with blues (Scotland, France and Italy) away that year. The following year the home and away fixtures are reversed.

Wales play the same principle, but the other way round.

I don't see how you could devise a simpler or fairer system.

Fearless Fred · « **Reply #26 on:** Wednesday 05-Feb-2020, 06:10* »

As an aside, in case any of you were unaware, there is a little trick to tell if a 6 Nations game is going to be on BBC or ITV. If the home team starts with a consonant (France, Scotland, Wales) the game will be on the BBC (Also starts with a consonant). If he home team starts with a vowel (England, Italy, Ireland) the game is on ITV (also starts with a vowel).

Mayor West · « **Reply #27 on:** Wednesday 05-Feb-2020, 08:24* »

I’m trying to remember whether we get Italy at home as a first game. This is an advantage as any team that does, like Wales, eases themselves in with usually 5 points.

BelgianQuin · « **Reply #28 on:** Wednesday 05-Feb-2020, 08:25* »

The team that finishes 1st in the 2nd tier 6N competition must - in my opinion - play a game against the team that finishes last in the 1st tier 6N.
Winner must be promoted to the 1st tier competition if it's the 2nd tier nation and must stay there for 2 years (home and away games). Loser relegates.

This is the case for the last team in the 2nd tier competition, who's playing a one off game against the winner of the 3rd tier competition.

For years now, I see Georgia playing here in Belgium and they deserve a chance to play at the highest stage. They stand out against teams like Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal and Belgium which is frustrating for these teams as it is frustrating for themselves...

I'm sure to say, that Georgia will do much better than Italy and deserve a chance to compete against Italy.

I'm afraid, that not only sportive values are counting...
To be honest, Tbilisi isn't the sexiest city to play rugby in winter compared to Rome...as it is for visiting fans!

A222Quin · « **Reply #29 on:** Wednesday 05-Feb-2020, 08:45* »

Quote from: Mayor West on Wednesday 05-Feb-2020, 08:24*

I’m trying to remember whether we get Italy at home as a first game. This is an advantage as any team that does, like Wales, eases themselves in with usually 5 points.

Being a complete nause I looked this up:

Scotland have had Italy first up on 2 occasions
England on 3
Wales on 4
France on 5
Ireland on 7

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Author Topic: O/T - Should there be relegation from the 6 nations? (Read 1595 times)

Pat

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Brown Bottle

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TeddingtonQuin

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A222Quin

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TeddingtonQuin

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T-Bone

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DazzaS

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A222Quin

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Fearless Fred

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Bolly-Quin

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Domestos

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Fearless Fred

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Mayor West

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BelgianQuin

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A222Quin

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