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Author Topic: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report  (Read 949 times)

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Jus-Quin-Time

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Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 11:27* »
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns

We have had a lengthy summer debate over 'Swing Low' connotations this summer.  Here is another contentious issue that is bound to attract some strong feelings.  I don't think it will be long before the big guns of the trans lobby, and assorted hangers on, will be accusing World Rugby of being transphobic. 

Other sports such as tennis, athletics and cycling have had to enter this bear pit.  It looks as though rugby is about to do the same but in this case the science is more focussed on player safety than equality in competitiveness. 

I presume that at some point a transgender male (female to male) will wish to play rugby in a mans team, if it isn't happening already.  The same issues of safety would apply I suppose? 

poorfour

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #1 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 12:24* »
It looks as though rugby is about to do the same but in this case the science is more focussed on player safety than equality in competitiveness. 

I presume that at some point a transgender male (female to male) will wish to play rugby in a mans team, if it isn't happening already.  The same issues of safety would apply I suppose? 

That first sentence is the critical one. If the article is correct, it's evidence based and the primary motivating factor is player safety for the majority of players. It's also important that they are quite specific about the exclusion criterion being "having gone through male puberty" and about funding ongoing research with a note that they will change their position if the evidence changes.

That's hard on many current adult transwomen, but it's hard to argue against if there is a material risk of harm to others. It also doesn't appear to exclude those who haven't gone through male puberty - which is becoming more common as parents and doctors are more accepting of trans children and puberty blockers are more commonly prescribed.

The article also suggests a clear position on transmen:

Quote
The proposals also recommend that transgender men should be allowed to play against other men – provided they get a physical assessment and a therapeutic-exemption-use certificate and sign an statement accepting they understand the greater injury risks.


DazzaS

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #2 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 14:51* »
How about to be safe a man to female league and a female to man league then its all equal

SwindonQuin

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #3 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 17:38* »
My two pence.

If a human being transitions to another gender, which is legally recognized in the country in which they reside, then they are by law said gender.

Now, legally speaking I would assume if a legally acknowledged male/female wishes to play in a team sport which is exclusively male/female then they have that legal right if they are recognized as that gender, irrelevant of what they were born.

Otherwise it's clear descrimation as they are legally male/female.

Within the UK there is legally recognized genders so not an issue for a 'fully' ( apologies if that the wrong way of saying it) transgender person to play male or female rugby aslong as their legal sex is for the appropriate team.

honkytonk

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #4 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 18:01* »
In a game of skill, I see no problem.  In a game when physical strength is so important and can have terrible results injury wise, you need to be careful.  Men are in general stronger than women.  A man that transitions to a women does not lose that strength.  Player safety should be at the forefront of any decision

Quinten Poulsen

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #5 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 18:47* »
Quote
I don't think it will be long before the big guns of the trans lobby

Tee hee.

SwindonQuin

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #6 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 18:49* »
If they are legally the sex then legally you can't discriminate.

In law its simple, they day rugby says 'you can't play because......' is the day rugby can no longer say it's inclusive.

You wouldn't dare say a homosexual or a ethnic minority or a person from a deprived background can't play rugby, would you?!?!

honkytonk

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #7 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:07* »
If they are legally the sex then legally you can't discriminate.

In law its simple, they day rugby says 'you can't play because......' is the day rugby can no longer say it's inclusive.

You wouldn't dare say a homosexual or a ethnic minority or a person from a deprived background can't play rugby, would you?!?!

That is totally different, and you are ignoring what I have said.  You think a 6ft 3 17 stone person (that used to be a man, but is now a women) playing womens rugby is safe??  You can see no problem the gulf in strength/power and physicality?
 
I dont have the answer, but you cannot tell me that there is no safety concern there.

I dont want to get into a long drawn out argument (for want of a better word) on here as there have been a few threads recently that descended into chaos.  Rugby is a dangerous game, a great game but one that can be brutal. 
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Quinky

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #8 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:17* »
My personal belief is that transgender people should only be allowed to compete as the sex that they were born. They can define themselves how they wish, but if a man one day says "I'm a woman", he's still a man.
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poorfour

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #9 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:20* »
If they are legally the sex then legally you can't discriminate.

In law its simple, they day rugby says 'you can't play because......' is the day rugby can no longer say it's inclusive.

You wouldn't dare say a homosexual or a ethnic minority or a person from a deprived background can't play rugby, would you?!?!

By that logic, you couldn't discriminate against an amputee playing in leg blades.

Rugby already discriminates against players on grounds of danger to themselves (e.g. concussion protocols) or to others (blood bins, bans for foul play).
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poorfour

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #10 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:36* »
My personal belief is that transgender people should only be allowed to compete as the sex that they were born. They can define themselves how they wish, but if a man one day says "I'm a woman", he's still a man.

So you're advocating the idea that a transman should be required to play with and against other people who were assigned female at birth but have not undergone the surgery and hormone therapy that goes with transition.

Are you sure about that?

And equally, you'd force a transwoman who took hormone blockers pre-puberty and began social and physical transition without ever receiving the massive dose of testosterone that teenage boys get to play - and change - with adult men?

Transition is not just someone asserting that they want to be a different gender and putting on a different set of clothes. It starts with that, but social transition is for most trans people only the first step. Hormone therapy and surgery can give people a body that is much more aligned with how they feel inside, especially if the process starts early enough.

But one thing it can't do is reverse the impact of testosterone on the body. It seems to me that World Rugby is being quite sensible about this. They're imposing a restriction where there is significant risk for others, but other than that trying to give trans people the chance to participate on the fairest basis.
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Quinten Poulsen

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #11 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:40* »
Quote
And equally, you'd force a transwoman who took hormone blockers pre-puberty and began social and physical transition without ever receiving the massive dose of testosterone that teenage boys get to play - and change - with adult men?

I think I'd rather see their parents play against adult men.
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SwindonQuin

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #12 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:41* »
That is totally different, and you are ignoring what I have said.  You think a 6ft 3 17 stone person (that used to be a man, but is now a women) playing womens rugby is safe??  You can see no problem the gulf in strength/power and physicality?
 
I dont have the answer, but you cannot tell me that there is no safety concern there.

I dont want to get into a long drawn out argument (for want of a better word) on here as there have been a few threads recently that descended into chaos.  Rugby is a dangerous game, a great game but one that can be brutal.

It is not for me or you to say what other people can do, as it stands the law is the law and there is no place for descrimation in our lives. If a person is male or female by law who are any of us to say that they don't have the same rights.
You can't have equal opportunity and then choose who it applies too.


SwindonQuin

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #13 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:42* »
My personal belief is that transgender people should only be allowed to compete as the sex that they were born. They can define themselves how they wish, but if a man one day says "I'm a woman", he's still a man.

Then you are a relic of the old days, the world has changed and there is very little space for bigot's and people who condemn and restrict others lives.

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SwindonQuin

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Re: Rugby and Gender - World Rugby Report
« Reply #14 on: Monday 20-Jul-2020, 19:47* »
By that logic, you couldn't discriminate against an amputee playing in leg blades.

Rugby already discriminates against players on grounds of danger to themselves (e.g. concussion protocols) or to others (blood bins, bans for foul play).

How does rugby commit  discrimination against players who suffer concussion and blood injuries, these are processes across the game irrelevant of sex, orientation, race or religion.

Your argument of an amputee playing rugby is valid, however, is not relevant to a legally recognized male/female who had transgendered.

Disability in sport and said access is a different matter.

 

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