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Author Topic: Slightly O/T: waist level tackling across all amateur rugby  (Read 1693 times)

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TomBuckQuin

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I've coached both my younger brothers, as has my dad. Nothing has changed - it's all still "they can't run without their legs" and "cheek to cheek". And the link deadly sent above is a great example of how players should be aiming to tackle.

The issue is, if you go for that tackle 100% of the time, no matter the situation, and get it slightly wrong just once... you can be in a world of trouble. No one is going to tackle perfectly every time, so the laws should allow for a variety of safe tackles depending on where you are at in relation to the player you're going in to tackle at any given point in time. There will be occasions where a chest/ribs-height tackle is safer for all concerned - that option is about to be removed. I can't see how this won't end up resulting in unintended consequences. It seems I'm not the only one...

There's now a petition picking up signatures: https://www.change.org/p/2023-24-tackling-height-in-the-amateur-rugby-union-game

And lots of pro players have come out yesterday/today seemingly not too charmed by the idea. Particularly interesting is this tweet from Oli Hoskins: https://twitter.com/omdhoskins/status/1616077215766044672?s=20&t=ggLN2w7KYPD7v2Fw0vr9sA

Brown Bottle

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It's true, there do seem to be some likely issues. I've not read anything yet but what do you do if you're standing next to someone with the ball, for a start?

Thing is there are quite a few people posting on the boards who seem to think that tackling the legs is inherently dangerous as if it never really existed. I'd suggest it's probably because they're younger than me and never actually played the game.

JammyGit

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Quote
There will be occasions where a chest/ribs-height tackle is safer for all concerned

A chest high tackle always comes with a high risk of danger, because there's no leeway for misjudgement or a relatively small change of direction / change in height turning it into a high tackle or head clash.

The Hoskins tweet is a bit lacking in context - the Championship Cup trial was a disaster for a lot of reasons. Players were playing these matches in between Championship games - thus not really being able to train with the tackle laws in mind - refs gave up reffing it properly very quickly, there was pushback and a total lack of buy-in from the coaches and players before it even started, etc etc. It was essentially how not to run a trial like this.

The French trial was much better and resulted in significant improvements, as well as getting a positive review from the participants.


This is an excellent article on the whole thing and I would recommend everyone take some time to read it: https://www.patreon.com/posts/lowering-legal-77489775
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Brown Bottle

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Thanks, Jammy, that was a good article, although when I saw "20 min read" I did flinch a little. 🙂
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TomBuckQuin

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Thing is there are quite a few people posting on the boards who seem to think that tackling the legs is inherently dangerous as if it never really existed. I'd suggest it's probably because they're younger than me and never actually played the game.

There might be something in that, but as a 32-year-old (I presume I'm one of those that's younger than your good self) who has been an avid fan since the age of 4 and coaching at grassroots and school level to varying degrees since the age of 16, coaching groups that I've been part of have always drilled tackling the legs wherever possible. And, crucially, part of that is ensuring your head is on the right side of the player you're going in to tackle - this can be equally applied to slightly higher tackles, such as rib/chest-height tackles.

Hoskins' tweet might not be all-encompassing in terms of context but I do think there's something to be said for his assertion that each tackle is situational and also some points made in replies below his tweet from other pro players that a forceful knee to the head can oftentimes lead to much worse outcomes than head-on-head collisions. So then are we trying to reduce numbers of head collisions without regard for the severity of the ones we're potentially going to see more of as a result and which are justifiable as "rugby incidents"? (Obviously a knee to the head would rightly be deemed a rugby incident - I've never seen anyone deliberately knee someone in the head - but I've seen it happen on multiple occasions and it ain't pretty). It's not always just about reducing numbers of certain collisions - especially if the numbers of other, potentially worse, collisions then increase as a direct result.

I will absolutely read the link you posted though Jammy, as I'll admit I'm not clued up on the French trial at all. I also don't think there is an easy answer to any of this and I will say it's positive to see the RFU having active conversations about it and at least trying to act to fix the issue. I'll go into the French trial article with an open mind, but with definite scepticism and reservations.
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JammyGit

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It does answer a lot of your questions. This big one:

Quote
So then are we trying to reduce numbers of head collisions without regard for the severity of the ones we're potentially going to see more of as a result and which are justifiable as "rugby incidents"?

has a very clear answer of "no". The studies look at this in detail and it is definitely a consideration. Leg tackles are more dangerous than waist tackles, but significantly less dangerous than upper body tackles. If you have more leg tackles and fewer upper body tackles, you will get fewer incidents overall.

The severity of concussions should not hugely change if it's knee or skull or shoulder your head is colliding with, and there'll be other factors in play as well. It seems wise to focus on reducing the number of head contacts as the priority.

Brown Bottle

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TBQ - you definitely need to read the article Jammy linked. At the very least it explains why relying on anecdotal outcome evidence from coaches and players is misguided.
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Fursty

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Jammy you're obviously quite well read on this - how do you prevent a pick and go a couple of meters out from the line if you have to go for the legs?

Brown Bottle

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Jammy you're obviously quite well read on this - how do you prevent a pick and go a couple of meters out from the line if you have to go for the legs?

Read the article. 🙂

JammyGit

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Jammy you're obviously quite well read on this - how do you prevent a pick and go a couple of meters out from the line if you have to go for the legs?

I'll quote the article:

First:
Quote
the French also proposed a "partner law change" that would regulate the actions by ball carrier.  That is, they said that the ball carrier would not be permitted to drop their height into contact, or to bend down and lead with the head.  In their words, the "defender must be able to tackle the ball carrier and so have access to his pelvis".

then, regarding this country:

Quote
More concerningly, and relevant to this story, was the negotiation about what to do when the ball carrier is low in contact, leading with their head.  This often happens near try-lines, and also in so-called pick and go situations.  Even in the wider elite game, this issue came up a lot.  People would protest harsher sanctions, saying "It is impossible for the tackler to avoid head contact if the ball carrier is in a pick and go move".

The thing is, if you watched rugby any time between 2010 and 2017, long before the high tackle and head contact focus came along, you'd see 30 to 50 of these situations every match, and they were never an issue.  Almost always, the ball carrier would duck down, lead with their head into the tackler, who typically stayed upright and 'soaked' the player.  This situation would produce head contact, so strictly speaking, is a 'high tackle', but they are never sanctioned, and nor should they be. The involve a bent ball carrier against an upright tackler, and head contact from the ball carrier's head to the tackler's torso or arms, in a wrap tackle.

We know that the risk from these is low, and so there's no need, even from a risk perspective, to act on these.  They were never penalised, not before 2017, not since, but they became the focal point of dispute.  In the attempts to navigate this issue, I believe a perception was created that the tackler had to be lower than the ball carrier, no matter what.

This was, in my opinion, an imagined or exaggerated problem, but it became crucial, because the response by coaches and players to lowering tackle height was to forget that these ball carrier induced head impacts have always been quite common, and instead, tacklers began reacting to the ball carrier in what became a 'race to the ground' while still trying to 'hit' the opponent in a dominant tackle.  As a result, a lot of dangerous tackles were created where tackles were trying to contact ball carriers low, the result being that two heads were still sharing airspace, but with both players charging into each other low to the ground.  An image of elephant bulls fighting for territory comes to mind.

It needn't have been like this.  A tackler who remains upright and "high" could safely and legally execute a tackle on a bent ball carrier, even with the lower tackle height trial, but this happened less and less often, replaced instead by something we can predict would increase risk.

The French solution, as I mention above, was to stop the ball carrier from dropping into contact by creating a law for that player too.   And it worked.


My own personal view on it is this:

1) Players diving for the line are entitled to dive for the line without risking head injury if they're not deliberately aiming their head at something hard. "Rugby is a game of inches" is just a saying, it's not the actual law. IMO the sport goes too far in encouraging actions that are unsafe purely to prevent something from happening; for example, massive clean outs because "we might lose the ball". The risk of such an action is far too high especially in service to such a small thing.

2) If you are in a position where you are unable to soak them or grapple them, and cannot effect a legal tackle, it's a try.

3) I would not be against making 10m the distance for scrums and lineouts, not 5m

4) The pick and go game is an absolute mess of illegality as it stands and could use harsh focus tbh
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poorfour

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Jammy you're obviously quite well read on this - how do you prevent a pick and go a couple of meters out from the line if you have to go for the legs?

Go for the waist. Also, refs always have been and always will be a bit more lenient on tackles near the try line because both players are generally trying to get lower.

In terms of the risk of head-to-knee contact, I think it's a strawman.

To put your head at knee height, your head basically needs to be lower than your own knees (or the player needs to be high-stepping. But David Campese retired ages ago). That is very hard to do if you're actually driving with your legs. Unless you're skilled enough to chop tackle (in which case you know what you're doing), your head is only going to get to that height if you trip or fall into the tackle - and that can happen regardless of tackle height.

One of the earlier studies on injuries in rugby found that (especially at amateur level) tacklers are injured more often than the tackled player, usually by getting their heads in the wrong place. One thing the French experience reportedly found was that the risk to the tackler was much reduced.

Rocker

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The actual data from the French trial doesn't really "prove" anything. The difference in the number of concussions/Head Injuries is statistically very small, especially in such a large sample. It is all about the RFU and other unions running scared of litigation.
Bloody lawyers screwing life up for everyone as always 🤬
Rugby is inherently a dangerous game as a contact sport, but no more so than many other full contact sports. Probably safer than horse riding still.... Maybe the RFU would just be happier is we all sat in the stands and watched, while supporting whatever fashionable cause they've decided to champion. I'm not really sure that they like rugby or rugby players/fans.......
I do definitely get the feeling that it's just more PC bs to satisfy the twitterati 🙄 The trouble is you can never win because unless you eviscerate yourself entirely, they still don't like you as you represent something they don't like. Why isn't the FA banning heading the ball as there is evidence (at least as good) that that can produce "brain injury" ?
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Yareet

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The actual data from the French trial doesn't really "prove" anything. The difference in the number of concussions/Head Injuries is statistically very small, especially in such a large sample. It is all about the RFU and other unions running scared of litigation.
Bloody lawyers screwing life up for everyone as always 🤬
Rugby is inherently a dangerous game as a contact sport, but no more so than many other full contact sports. Probably safer than horse riding still.... Maybe the RFU would just be happier is we all sat in the stands and watched, while supporting whatever fashionable cause they've decided to champion. I'm not really sure that they like rugby or rugby players/fans.......
I do definitely get the feeling that it's just more PC bs to satisfy the twitterati 🙄 The trouble is you can never win because unless you eviscerate yourself entirely, they still don't like you as you represent something they don't like. Why isn't the FA banning heading the ball as there is evidence (at least as good) that that can produce "brain injury" ?

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/jul/18/fa-to-trial-banning-deliberate-heading-by-children-under-12-in-england

https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/scottish-football-to-ban-heading-the-day-before-and-after-matches-3933256?amp


JammyGit

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Very much enjoying Rocker's commitment to the 'bit'.
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Kermitpower

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Me too! That must date us.

My lad is 15 this month.  He's still coached to take the legs.
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