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Author Topic: Stuart Barnes' scathing take on John Mitchell's England job  (Read 1130 times)

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DOK

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If Barnes is agin then I'm instinctively for!

Though I admit the defensive stats of the Sunwolves is worrying!

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deadlyfrom5yardsout

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Must admit I was underwhelmed by the appointment but let's give him time I guess. In Eddie we trust!

A222Quin

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Iím certainly no great fan of the appointment but there is a positive if it has irritated Barnes. Heís becoming increasingly shrill and vitriolic these days as the lack of matches on sky give him so few opportunities to share his insights. An incredibly negative presence in the English game.

Quaking Quin

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None of you can be serious.

Jones appears to have lost the plot -  Barnes is only pointing out the blindingly obvious.

- Why have a rigid policy for players being England-based and not apply the same criteria to the coaches?

- Why not include an in-form Cipriani inspiring a top four Gloucester side in his AI squad as well as a long-standing out of form Ford who is doing nothing to help a misfiring Leicester outfit who lost at home to Wuzz last weekend?

- Why have six out of form Quins players who have forgotten how to play for 80 minutes (let alone win) in his training squad but have only three from an Exeter team with a consistent and sustained winning habit?

Time for someone to smell the coffee................ 

A222Quin

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None of you can be serious.

Jones appears to have lost the plot -  Barnes is only pointing out the blindingly obvious.

- Why have a rigid policy for players being England-based and not apply the same criteria to the coaches?

- Why not include an in-form Cipriani inspiring a top four Gloucester side in his AI squad as well as a long-standing out of form Ford who is doing nothing to help a misfiring Leicester outfit who lost at home to Wuzz last weekend?
- Why have six out of form Quins players who have forgotten how to play for 80 minutes (let alone win) in his training squad but have only three from an Exeter team with a consistent and sustained winning habit?

Time for someone to smell the coffee................ 

Steady on! Why so confrontational? Why is the world losing the ability to have a debate? At no point did I say that I thought Jones was doing a good job. I was more expressing the mild amusement that the permanently miserable Barnes, (a rugby pundit I find so aggravating Iíd rather spend a weekend watching greatest welsh victories with jiffy than listen to him for any length of time) appeared to be further irritated by something.

As to why have a rigid policy for players but not coaches... seriously? Not much to do with EJ, thatís an RFU policy that predates him. Sometching about availability for international windows and training camps via agreements with PRL etc and stopping the top players from decamping to France when the wage differential was substantial in the early part of this decade. See no benefit in limiting ourselves to English coaches but the merit is certainly there for the players.

I would like to see Cipriani in the squad, and heís played very well at times recently, he offers something I do think England miss. That said Iím concerned that the hype is getting to the point that every time his name is mentioned his perceived ability goes even further into the stratosphere - heís left Dan Carter so far in his wake now. Also while Ford was bog average last year, his form this season for a misfiring Leicester has actually been very good.

On the final one - no idea at all. That does utterly confuse me. Think Armand is unlucky not to get an extended run. Thereís always examples of quality players at club level who just canít cut it at international or who work really well in their club system but donít work outside of it (see Goode, Alex amongst many more) but I donít feel the likes of Armand have had a fair crack.

So for me EJ is in the last chance saloon, a fair bit of what he does utterly confuses me and I want to see a significant improvement this Autumn or we need to make changes or the World Cup will be an utter waste. But I also feel weíre at the point where heís damned if he does and damned if he doesnít. The squad announcement and subsequent hysteria was for a training squad where limited changes can be made from the previous, I donít expect it to be the same at the AIs at all. If it is, Iíll be more worried.

JammyGit

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None of you can be serious.

Jones appears to have lost the plot -  Barnes is only pointing out the blindingly obvious.

- Why have a rigid policy for players being England-based and not apply the same criteria to the coaches?

- Why not include an in-form Cipriani inspiring a top four Gloucester side in his AI squad as well as a long-standing out of form Ford who is doing nothing to help a misfiring Leicester outfit who lost at home to Wuzz last weekend?

- Why have six out of form Quins players who have forgotten how to play for 80 minutes (let alone win) in his training squad but have only three from an Exeter team with a consistent and sustained winning habit?

Time for someone to smell the coffee................ 

You're over-egging it a bit there.

1) Because there's no danger of losing English coaches overseas for big money and killing our own competition. I can't believe you seriously asked that question, you're smarter than that!

2) Ford's been excellent this season, even in defeat. He's really stepped up his running threat, back to how he used to be. Cipriani is in form but you must have seen what happened against Sarries; he barely had a sniff and just repeated the same attacking move over and over and Sarries ate it up. He won't try and beat a man properly, almost never makes a break, and is allergic to contact - he can do wonderful things, has a great kicking game, but he needs to keep defences guessing or he won't be anything more than an impact sub at international level.

3) Team form is not the same as personal form. By all means criticise Mike Brown's selection - he's had one match where he did nothing then got injured - but there's almost no reason to drop Care, Robshaw, or Marler, and Earle has been pretty good for us even if I agree it's a left-field selection. I can't think of the 6th off the top of my head. Exeter as a team are great, but that doesn't mean individuals are all international class. Eddie does talk a lot of nonsense about picking on form and seems to delight in annoying the media, but I can't really disagree with him on too many selections. Unless you're a really big fan of Gareth Steenson, I suppose.

RodneyRegis

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It's a woeful appointment. Barnes is a buffoon, but he's spot on here. Mitchell is an unsuccessful second rate coach with a littany of failures behind him. He's also a dinosaur, if anything expect more training injuries and flogged players. Eddie has lost the plot, and anyone who trusts him after our worst 6n performance and the shocking performances in SA needs to have a rethink.
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Quaking Quin

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Jammy,

I'm not over-egging anything.

1.  I simply do not understanding the point you are trying to make about the coaches. You go off at a tangent about English coaches not going off to better paid jobs but conveniently forget Sean Edwards going to Wales then Wigan Warriors, or Stuart Lancaster going to Leinster or Andy Farrell looking like the next Irish DoR. However, my point was that Jones is being hypocritical applying one qualification rule to the players and the opposite to the selection of Mitchell.

2.  I thought Jones' policy was to select in-form players. I haven't seen George Ford play this season but surely the Leicester results speak volumes for his game management? Whatever, why can't Jones find room for three 10s in his training squad - seems to suggest he does not like the idea of Cipriani in his set up and is not prepared to mix and match during the AIs. If Ford and Farrell fail this autumn then it is very unfair to expect Cipriani to miraculously change thing around last minute before the RWC without any meaningful game time.

3.  The Quins England contingent have done nothing over the last 18 months to justify their inclusions in a starting England XV. Why play Daly at 15 (a natural 13 or 14) and stick Brown on the wing when there are numerous specialist wingers with far greater impact. Care...?... Robshaw anonymous for club and country. Marler still likes the soft option of being yellow carded. Earle maybe, but he hasn't done anything exceptional so far for Quins - Daly, Yarde, Nowell and the Bath pair have done far more.

4. Steenson is Irish and irrelevant to your argument.

Whoever Jones picks he needs to find a winning team PDQ to take England to the RWC. Same applies to Gustard who had no answer to England's change in fortunes while with Jones. 

« Last Edit: Tuesday 25-Sep-2018, 23:08 by Quaking Quin »

JammyGit

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OK sorry but I think you've totally misunderstood.

Jones does not create the rules. Jones is given the rules by the RFU. The RFU stipulate that anyone not playing rugby in this country cannot be selected for England. That is something multiple countries are doing, in order to prevent player drain to France & Japan, to ensure that the domestic product is as good as it can be, and to provide the best access to EQPs for the national team.

With me so far?

There is no such stipulation for coaches. Why? Because there's no talent drain there. English coaches are not in particular demand.

So it's entirely NOT hypocritical for Jones to select players and coaches based upon the RFU's on rules, and the rules on coaches being different to players makes total sense in context.

2) If you've not seen Tigers play then it's very, very daft to comment on George Ford's form. I have seen Tigers play and Ford has impressed me despite the Leicester squad being pretty mediocre. His game management in their losing performance against Wasps was top-notch.

3) Despite all of us (including me) criticising the selection of Brown on the wing, there were some reasons for doing it, not least the fact that every other player he tries at fullback tends to **** the bed a little bit, and Brown is a safety option in that back three. As it happens he played as well as we've seen him for a while, but was exposed for pace in defence, which was predictable. Both Watson and Daly have had big, big errors at 15, though. Eddie should revert back to Brown at 15 and Daly on the wing, but Daly's skillset means if he can make the transition to 15 then it's a big bonus to England.

You simply can't ignore Brown's impact on any team he plays for.

Care has been excellent for Eddie most of the time, played really well for 2 thirds of last season for Quins, and started off well this season but had a poor one last time out. He deserves his place. Robshaw is starting to fade and playing 7 does him no favours; he had his first proper shocker for England this year, but then also had a good game against South Africa in the one match we managed to win. He was fine in the AIs; harsh to say he's been anonymous, as it isn't true. Marler - "likes the soft option"? Very odd criticism. Earle's been good, making huge amounts of ground, but he's a bit of a punt by Eddie for sure. I will say he's been playing better than Jack Nowell, though, because Nowell has played 1 match (zero tries, 52m, 4 tackles). I do strongly suggest actually watching matches before pontificating on them.

4) Steenson is EQP and completely relevant to my argument.


JammyGit

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Earle is averaging 76m per game. He's made 5m fewer than Fiji Joe, who looks a real talent and has also been called up.

Blucherquin

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Entirely with Jammy here - heís right and youíre miles off Iím afraid

There are rules for England players not England coaches, not up to Jones to set rules but he does have to follow them - so it canít be hypocritical of him to follow them unless heís always promised to break the rules - which he hasnít.

And Jammy also spot on with why Jones has picked the Quins players.

If club form and international form were the same then Wade, Kvesic, etc etc would all have had England careers - they didnít because theyíre not international class.

We donít have a new 15, so Brown is going to keep being in the squad (as an ď11Ē) until we do.

Jones tried some other 9s, they were bobbins so Care is back.

Robshaw has played 1 poor game but thatís all.

Marler is one of the worldís best props

And yes, by all accounts, Ford is having a good season.
« Last Edit: Wednesday 26-Sep-2018, 04:57 by Blucherquin »

DOK

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The proof of the pudding is clearly in the eating, but I like the way John Mitchell talks

JammyGit

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Marler - "likes the soft option"? Very odd criticism.

I should acknowledge that Quaking Quin appears to have got that right re: cards!

Quinky

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Robshaw anonymous for club and country...


This begs two questions:

1) Have you ever watched a Quins game?

2) Do you know which player is Chris Robshaw?

never sleep

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Do you mean this Chris Robshaw?

(from twitter)

@Harlequins
Sep 29
20 Tackles made today against Gloucester 

 Superman goes to bed wearing Chris Robshaw pyjamas #COYQ

https://twitter.com/Harlequins/status/1046154690130587648

 

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