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Author Topic: Thats the coaching sorted then  (Read 2805 times)

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guest25

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 09:50* »
Proof of the pudding is in the results on the field.

Quins' recruitment has hardly been stunning this summer and the existing galacticos have been an uncoordinated mess for the last three seasons.

Let's hope the newly appointed DoR/Head Whatever does not fall into the same cliché ridden build-up - top 6 is a minimum but it takes 3 years to gel.

We will know by the end of November whether there is any lead in the pencil.

Not entirely sure what point you’re making.

Really? It seems pretty clear to me what point he's making.

My own view is that we have a strong squad which (massively) underperformed last season. If it performs to anything like its potential this season, there's no reason why we shouldn't get straight back into the top half of the table ... at least.

I also hope that the new management doesn't arrive paving the way in front of themselves with pre-baked excuses about how long it'll take to achieve a turnaround of "the mess we've inherited". It doesn't strike me that that's Gustard's style and he must know that what he's inheriting offers a real opportunity for an instant and spectacular turnaround.

A222Quin

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 10:54* »
The under performance has gone on so long that I'm not sure exactly what level of performance these players are capable of. I'd like to think that they're capable of top 6 but I'm honestly not sure.

What i'm hoping for from Gustard and his team is that we look like a team with a consistent and properly planned approach to the game. Above all though, the basics have to improve though.

kevin

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 11:29* »
Hmm...

  Along with Tofty -  It retains the continuity of the Quins style.


Hmmm! I would hope that our style of recent times is kicked into touch!

Quaking Quin

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 15:37* »
Thank you MrOther for pointing out to others the blindingly obvious.

Over the past 15 years or so seasons I've heard every possible excuse for a poor  Harlequeens' league position - from the weekly 'disappointing performance' missives in 'Scottie Speaks' - to Mark Evans saying the club was 'punching above its weight' when finishing 6th or 7th - to the mindless media confetti endlessly uttered by CoS and copied by JK.

We all start the new season with high expectations and legacy of 'the best ever Quins squad' (according to the previous DoR). However, we must temper any pre-season optimism with the reality that we begin a new era under the direction of a coach with no previous DoR experience at any level, assisted by a hastily assembled and unproven coaching team.

I hope Gustard will give us a clear and honest analysis of his expectations and the team's performances - win or lose. Let's also hope his fresh ideas rekindle the careers of an ageing core squad who have got used to losing at club and international level.

If Quins are to improve they must beat their closest bottom 6 league rivals (Sale, Bristol, Gloucester, Wuzz and Saints) whose recruitment over the summer appears to have been significantly more impressive. Time will tell if it is better  - the league position by the end of November should give a good guide!!!

The coaching team do not have the luxury of three years to put together a squad in their own image. Any slip on last season's results and it's back to Championship rugby.......

« Last Edit: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 15:48* by Quaking Quin »

Gone

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 15:49* »
So although it takes 3 years to change a squad, or even 1 year (even though that’s clearly impossible) that doesn’t apply to Quins.

Ok so that leaves the current squad.

And you’re giving the new coaching team until November?

And again you’re talking about recruitment - which wasn’t done by the new coaching team and was complete before their arrival.

Finally - you’re bored of all the managers of a sports team saying what managers of a sports team say about a sports team. What do you propose Gustard should say? I mean he could knock out some karaoke I guess, or maybe giving updates on share prices and bond yields would be more crowd appropriate.

I hope he sorts out our defence, keeps us up and starts working to clear our players he doesn’t want or rate. Why we will have brown, care, robshaw, horwill, and more with no one challenging for their spot is a total mystery.

Sadly the idea that anyone can make a “spectacular” turn around of some b-list squad fillers and England players at the end of their careers who are all focussed on Japan is a mystery.

We need a new start - we’ve got one - but I’d expect Gustard to say it’s a long job and wouldn’t knock him for it.

So yeah - I don’t have a clue what you’re on about
« Last Edit: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 16:02* by Blucherquin »

TomBuckQuin

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 16:34* »

Quaking Quin

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 17:26* »
Blucherquin - you clearly don't.

We agree players contracts are for 2 or 3 years so it takes that time for a DoR to change an entire squad. What I said was that Gustard and his team do not have that luxury. If Quins cannot improve on last season's 10th position they would obviously be relegation fodder.

Realistically, Gustard's immediate challenge in his first season is to get the existing squad working effectively as a team, to avoid relegation, get as high up the table as possible (eg. back to 7th or 8th) and plan long term from a strong base.

On paper Quins have a talented group of players who we all agree have collectively under-performed for a number of years. Nonetheless, Quins will have to start the new season well, otherwise the loss of confidence from last season will persist and be impossible to break without a major mid-season recruitment drive.

No - I am not giving Gustard until the end of November.

Please read in context - I said it would be a "guide" to the way the rest of the season is likely to pan out, particularly in relation to the results of the other bottom 6 clubs from 2017/18. Who IMHO have (on paper) all recruited better than Quins in addressing weaknesses in their squads.

Gustard has chosen not to recruit, others still are - Sale have recruited Ashton since Gustard was appointed and are still looking for two more forwards before the season starts (according to TRP).

Lots of players will be available by the end November from SH Super Rugby. My guess is Gustard will wait until then to strengthen where necessary having had a good look at the current Quins squad in action.



NevsLeftBoot

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 18:34* »
SO many things to comment on.

1) Coach needs time - new team needs time - that is obvious.

2) Where is this talented squad i keep hearing about? Some blokes who were good 6 years ago, some blokes who were going to be the NEXT BIG THING, but have not ever been?

3) PG has to do more than coach this group into a cohesive unit - he also has to start planning for the future, DC, Brown, Robshaw, Horwill need replacing and one of the biggest issues at Quins in the last 6 years has been big players leaving and not being adequately replaced.

4) I don't care what he spouts at the end of the game, I don't care what spin he puts on it - that is his job to do what he sees fit in the media - it is not the coaches job to wash the clubs dirty laundry in public.

Whether people like it or not - i would expect he has three jobs this season.
1) don't get relegated
2) Sort out a style of play that can be built upon (changing this will be hard)
3) Recruitment and retention

Any thing else will be a bonus.

I expect this season to painful, changing the clubs fortunes is going to be hard, it will take time and there will be lots of false dawns - PG has never done any of this before.

TomBuckQuin

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 19:41* »
I don't agree that it has to be that hard. Look at what Ackermann managed at Gloucester, Dean Richards at Newcastle. Maybe they're anomalies but it doesn't have to be "it will take a couple/few years". Are you really telling me you wouldn't be disappointed if we didn't make top 6 with the group of players we have? (Yes, I know, on paper). Because I would be disappointed with anything less than that.

Our most likely first 15 (and even 23) when fit and with someone squeezing form out of them matches up to most other sides on any given day. And that's what we missed in recent years - the respected management figure ensuring in no uncertain terms that they all work their hind legs off for each other. If Paul Gustard is that man then surely we can expect not to be in the bottom half of the table.

poorfour

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 20:02* »
In terms of the squad, I think there are three elements to it: quality, injuries and tactics.

Last year, we clearly had the tactics (and the training to go with them) badly wrong. We can hope that Gustard has learned from his time with Eddie how to make a rapid change in tactics.

Squad quality is actually higher than I can remember. With everyone fit, we can field a XXIII that has 14 internationals (Marler, Elia, Sinckler, Horwill, Robshaw, Clifford, Bothma, Care, Saili, Tapuai, Visser, Brown, Collier, Luamanu) and several others who are expected to get international recognition before long (Smith, Marchant, Boyce, possibly Baby Chis).

We will need to replace Horwill, Robshaw, Care and Brown, probably by the end of 2019-20. Between Clifford, Wallace, Baby Chis, Waters and Morris we have the latter three fairly well covered; the open question is where our next lot of locks are coming from. We don’t know whether Dombrandt and Symonds will step up, but Merrick has shown a lot of potential.

The big issue is injuries. We don’t seem to be able to keep the same hooker fit from week to week, let alone the same team. Clifford, Bothma, Wallace, Saili, Collier, Luamanu, Marchant, Baby Chis, Big Chis, Buchanan... it would almost be easier to list the players who have stayed fit than those who haven’t.

We’ve struggled with a long sicklist and in particular squad continuity since 2012. I don’t know why. We’ve also managed to recruit a lot of players who’ve then spent most of their Quins careers on the treatment table. I don’t know why that is. We’ve certainly managed to rehabilitate players in the past - Ollie Kohn was, IIRC, recovering from a very bad knee injury when we recruited him and went on to be a great player for us.

I don’t have a great sense of whether other teams struggle the way we do; it doesn’t feel that way. I suspect our injury problems the last few seasons have been so deep that we’ve been forced into rushing players back and having them get injured so the cycle begins all over again.

I don’t know if Gustard (or perhaps more likely Millard) can do anything about that - but I suspect that that’s the key problem to fix and we are good enough to compete if we can do that. (But it’s worth noting that in the GP “compete” means exactly that: there are no pushovers any more).

Rocker

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 22:18* »
2012 we mostly seemed to keep the same squad fit and together but in recent seasons and last season more than ever we seemed to not be put a fit team together at all. I think it has to be the key to our success or failure this season. I have a feeling we did suffer more than most.

Quinten Poulsen

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 29-Jul-2018, 22:33* »
Quote
Dean Richards at Newcastle.

After promotion they finished 11th, 11th, 11th, 8th and then 4th last season.

JammyGit

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #27 on: Monday 30-Jul-2018, 00:46* »
Ackermann wasn't an unqualified success. They improved by two league positions, but still have the same mental frailties and a much worse defence than in the previous season. They've been mid/lower-mid-table forever, so 7th doesn't represent a massive jump.

RodneyRegis

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #28 on: Monday 30-Jul-2018, 10:24* »
It takes 3 years to CHANGE a squad, not to get it playing properly. Do people honestly think that we should wait 3 years for results?

Gone

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Re: Thats the coaching sorted then
« Reply #29 on: Monday 30-Jul-2018, 11:17* »
SO many things to comment on.

1) Coach needs time - new team needs time - that is obvious.

2) Where is this talented squad i keep hearing about? Some blokes who were good 6 years ago, some blokes who were going to be the NEXT BIG THING, but have not ever been?

3) PG has to do more than coach this group into a cohesive unit - he also has to start planning for the future, DC, Brown, Robshaw, Horwill need replacing and one of the biggest issues at Quins in the last 6 years has been big players leaving and not being adequately replaced.

4) I don't care what he spouts at the end of the game, I don't care what spin he puts on it - that is his job to do what he sees fit in the media - it is not the coaches job to wash the clubs dirty laundry in public.

Whether people like it or not - i would expect he has three jobs this season.
1) don't get relegated
2) Sort out a style of play that can be built upon (changing this will be hard)
3) Recruitment and retention

Any thing else will be a bonus.

I expect this season to painful, changing the clubs fortunes is going to be hard, it will take time and there will be lots of false dawns - PG has never done any of this before.

See? I'm not alone -- maybe this just puts is more clearly.

 

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