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Author Topic: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.  (Read 1762 times)

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Le Tiss

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #15 on: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 21:10* »
Well no, thatís why we pass laws to prevent discrimination on the basis of sexuality because we live in a country that believes where you park your bits makes no difference to anything.

Like we donít think itís an equal point of view to say black people would be better if they were white.

Being gay isnít a viewpoint.
playing devils advocate but I am fairly sure people of faith don't see their beliefs as a viewpoint, but the literal word of God. Now that's a big concept and something that is the root of many if the world's problems in this day and age. I do not feel the need to persecute people on either side of this debate....there is the chance they are right after all....I really hope they aren't though.

Gone

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #16 on: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 21:28* »
Both sides of this debate are intolerant, that was my point. Where do you stand on intolerance of Christians?

Hold on. Gay people didnít make the RFU or Rugby Australia adopt policies that prevent employees treating them unequally.

Itís not the same thing.

Rocker

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #17 on: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 21:29* »
Yes. You see that is the point as a saved sinner folau can't help himself. His God he is told says that this, or that, is evil but you can be saved if you repent, he therefore wishes others to be saved by repenting.
In his position, especially with the previous warnings was a bit daft (to put it mildly) to retweet (or whatever it was) what he did.
I'm afraid that personally I still worry for a society where you can make up biological facts....
« Last Edit: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 21:44* by Rocker »

Le Tiss

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #18 on: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 21:41* »
Hold on. Gay people didnít make the RFU or Rugby Australia adopt policies that prevent employees treating them unequally.

Itís not the same thing.
so should we just ban religion? Surpressing one group over another is not right in my opinion.

poorfour

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #19 on: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 22:42* »
Both sides of this debate are intolerant, that was my point. Where do you stand on intolerance of Christians?

But that's the thing. No-one is being intolerant of Christians. Folau wasn't sacked for holding those views. The ARU tolerated his beliefs even after it was apparent that he held them. What he was sacked for was acting in direct violation of one of the terms and conditions of his employment after he had already been warned not to do so.

And even if he hadn't, there is a fundamental difference between holding a belief and inflicting that belief on other people. Being gay is not a choice that people make. It's a fundamental part of how they're wired [1]. Being told that they will burn in hell can cause a lot of harm to people who are just coming to terms with their sexuality, and if we tolerate that sort of speech then it also creates an environment where it normalises persecution of minorities.

Human rights aren't absolute; there's a hierarchy. Your rights stop when they start causing harm to other people, and it's been decided - based on evidence - that being allowed to use discriminatory language against gay people and other minorities runs right up against that border.

----

[1] Though I suspect that many more people are bisexual than admit it, whether to other people or themselves. And I also suspect that a lot of beliefs about whether being gay is a choice come from people who have chosen to suppress one side of their sexuality, because that's what they've been raised to believe they must do.
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Hellequin

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #20 on: Friday 12-Apr-2019, 23:02* »
so should we just ban religion? Surpressing one group over another is not right in my opinion.

I don't think it is suppressing religious beliefs at all, the RFU, ASU, Sarries etc are saying you cant condemn a group of people because of who they are and that this doesn't fit with their values; Folau, Vunipola etc are condemning a group of people for who they are, they are entitled to their beliefs but aren't justified in questioning/judging/denegrating others that is where the issue lies for me.

Domestos

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 06:28* »
As a card carrying Christian, with gay friends and a rugby fan I find these views repugnant. I'm all for having your own beliefs and views but that doesn't mean you need to share them.


Well. You have just shared yours!

Quinky

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:27* »
... whether you can criticise Wayne Barnes without blaming him for defeat
You can't. That's gospel...

Pun intended :)

Quinky

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:30* »
I'm afraid that personally I still worry for a society where you can make up biological facts....

I echo this sentiment... It's a strange world that we now live in.
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Quinky

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:36* »
playing devils advocate but I am fairly sure people of faith don't see their beliefs as a viewpoint, but the literal word of God. Now that's a big concept and something that is the root of many if the world's problems in this day and age. I do not feel the need to persecute people on either side of this debate....there is the chance they are right after all....I really hope they aren't though.

Your posts make some very good points. Folau may well feel that he doesn't hate people, but that he pities them for what he believes are their sinning ways. Maybe he thinks he's trying to help them by warning that unless they repent, they will go to Hell.

To those of us who who disagree with him, of course this sounds ridiculous. But we're talking about a deeply religious person.

I suppose we should be grateful that he doesn't claim his religion leads him to bomb people...

EvilMole

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:46* »
Both sides of this debate are intolerant, that was my point. Where do you stand on intolerance of Christians?

Christians are perfectly free not to be gay if they so wish. I'm entirely tolerant of their wish only to be heterosexual. What they do in their bedrooms is none of my business, as long it's consensual and doesn't involve children.

They are also entirely free to not take part in Pride marches, hold hands in the street as same sex couples, or for male and female Christians to marry. Again, none of my business, and I'm not going to criticise them for doing it.

I'll even tolerate their bloody church bells waking me up occasionally on Sunday, as I do our local mosque's call to prayer. Personally I find both sounds quite pleasing, even if they do occasionally affect my hangover status.

They also have freedom of speech, like everyone else, to talk about their views if they wish. What they don't have is a special kind of freedom from consequences of that speech, something that no one has.

Quinky

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #26 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:54* »
Being tolerant of intolerance is a bit backwards.

Indeed. But we see it a lot in the wider society.

Banstead Quin

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:56* »
Yes Domestos I shared that I personally find them repugnant, I didn't say that he should burn in hell for holding those beliefs though, so think I'm a little more accepting of another's right to have an opinion.

Quinky

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 07:56* »
On a different note, I see that Folau's post picked on a range of people, none of them doing anything illegal. Why is there no uproar from or about atheists, drunkards, fornicators and the others?

poorfour

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Re: Well Done Saracens regarding Billy Vunipola.
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 13-Apr-2019, 08:30* »
On a different note, I see that Folau's post picked on a range of people, none of them doing anything illegal. Why is there no uproar from or about atheists, drunkards, fornicators and the others?

Because out of those, only atheists are anything approaching a minority group that has been systematically discriminated against, and in most democracies atheists have enough personal freedom and are not seriously threatened by discrimination.

 

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