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Author Topic: What would it mean if the Premiership expanded to 13?  (Read 970 times)

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DOK

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marlowish

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Personally I have less than zero interest in a league with no relegation/promotion. To me it is just micky mouse and not woth a w++k. If that comes in I will not be bothering and will probably get a ST at Brentford or maybe Spurs where I used to go every week before I got into quins.

I have no interest in watching a sport in which the majority of the games at least 1 team has nothing to play for.  I know the argument will be that the battle will be to get into the top 6 but the reality is that any team that comes 5th or 6th is not likely to do anything in the Euro competition other than make up the numbers. 


A222Quin

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I'd make it 14 if we're going down this road. Fallow weeks don't make sense IMO.

I'd rather keep relegation all told though can see the supposed benefits of ring fencing given half of the Championship are happy where they are.

Marler

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To me it is just micky mouse and not woth a w++k. If that comes in I will not be bothering and will probably get a ST at Brentford or maybe Spurs where I used to go every week before I got into quins.

Hurrah! Let me know if you need a lift.

TomBuckQuin

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Personally I have less than zero interest in a league with no relegation/promotion. To me it is just micky mouse and not woth a w++k. If that comes in I will not be bothering and will probably get a ST at Brentford or maybe Spurs where I used to go every week before I got into quins.

I have no interest in watching a sport in which the majority of the games at least 1 team has nothing to play for.  I know the argument will be that the battle will be to get into the top 6 but the reality is that any team that comes 5th or 6th is not likely to do anything in the Euro competition other than make up the numbers. 



Bit of an overreaction. No one's suggesting it's going to be permanent. But if this is the be all and end all of how you choose your sport to follow, so be it. I choose to watch rugby because I love watching rugby.

Of course I'd rather have relegation to keep the spice but currently all it does is cause serious (and often lasting) financial damage to the club that goes down - before they return a year later because the competition in the Championship doesn't stand a chance. And of course, once they come up, they're usually in the mix to head straight back down because of that aforementioned damage done.

So the logic is to go on temporary lockdown, close the gulf, open it back up. Which in turn should make relegation/promotion far more interesting than the farce it is currently and make for a stronger Championship too. Which, whether you like the journey or not, is definitely a destination I'm glad they're aspiring to because I want to see the professional side of the game continue to grow stronger.

Chipstead Quin

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TBQ - my concern is that shutting the Trapdoor on the Championship  would have the opposite effect to that which you suggest .
 Prem Teams would become stronger as they could attract the best from the Championship into their Academies / Squads , players that want to perform at the top level , but whose opportunities for promotion had been removed .
They are now suggesting a system of a home and away play off for Promotion between the Prem side and the Championship side  which would usually favour the Prem side anyway .
Personally I would prefer to keep Promotion and Relegation but that means the RFU needs to financially support the Teams in The Championship that are interested in Promotion and maintain the Funding of the Academy and Marquee players of any Club that gets Relegated for a couple of seasons if necessary .
I really dislike the clauses in Contracts that say players can bail out when Relegated as well - Newcastle has suffered having to loan or release players.
Like you say , Ill continue to go either way and something needs to happen as the Status Quo is very unsatisfactory .

Fearless Fred

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I'm not a fan of the idea of having an end-of-season playoff between the bottom Prem club and the top Championship club, as it's far too late then for the Championship club to make any decent signings of a Premiership level. Pretty much all the recruitment is done in the first three months of the calendar year.

TomBuckQuin

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TBQ - my concern is that shutting the Trapdoor on the Championship  would have the opposite effect to that which you suggest .
 Prem Teams would become stronger as they could attract the best from the Championship into their Academies / Squads , players that want to perform at the top level , but whose opportunities for promotion had been removed .

Understand that reservation but is the Championship not already a hunting ground for Prem clubs in exactly the way you describe? Realistically, unless you've been playing for the yo-yo teams (Irish, Newcastle... Bristol, Leeds in the past) you're not going to play Premiership rugby unless you get picked up by a Prem team anyway. And therein lies the problem.

I just don't see how you address the imbalance without a relatively-speaking short period of ringfencing. Championship clubs are so busy treading water that they're only able to launch half-hearted attempts at the title year-in-year-out and get very little done to make themselves more of a viable business financially. They're between a rock and a hard place - so much so that half of them have decided it's not even in their best interests to push for promotion. That's quite a ridiculous situation to be in when you really think about what they're saying there.

The issue for those teams that do want promotion is if you just throw money at them, what are they likely to do? Immediately sign a load of players to mount a challenge which, even if they succeed, leads to one year in the Prem with an immediate drop back down and unsustainable cashflow issues. Whereas, tell them that promotion isn't an option for a few years and how does that change their thinking? Allows them to focus on their stadium, training facilities, fanbase, community programmes for a few years - work on the business side (still, like you say, a serious investment will be required from the RFU) and the local community will soon get behind a more polished product.

When all this ringfencing chat arose years ago my reflex reaction was "no". Now, though, the gulf has grown so vast that I think it really is the best chance the Championship (and its clubs) has.

Chipstead Quin

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Fair points TBQ , clearly a complicated issue with no easy answers
Ive not seen a lot of feedback from Championship Clubs.
Presumably those that want Promotion are reluctant and others are not bothered either way .

TomBuckQuin

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Definitely not a black and white issue and the other question is whether or not the RFU can actually afford to prop up the Championship with their own financial dire straits getting so much press! Maybe the Championship will be next to seek a CVC cash injection? It needs investment to build the grounds to look pretty on TV before the competition has any long term viability - when the TV money starts rolling in then we should start to see the gap shrink between Prem and Champ. A lot of work to do!

A number of Championship clubs reported to be outraged by the idea of ringfencing but haven't seen them named. Only Ealing and Cornish Pirates have recently shown any real ambition in terms of their plans on the business side from what I've read. Anyone seen anything from any other Championship clubs looking to pump real funds into their facilities?

quinalan

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Why not have a 14 club premiership, with relegation, & a one in fourteen chance is much sounder insurance for the big clubs. There needs to be a lot more support for the promoted team/teams. Why not have a "transfer window" from April to August, thus allowing the promoted team a fairer attempt at recruitment. I've always found it very odd that rugby recruitment is done & dusted by January in secret, which as said before gives the promoted team no chance. If the Championship winner received a significant cash bonus that would also help. The CVC cash should be used to help develop the underlying strength of the game as well as giving cash rich clubs even more cash. It can be done, just needs the right people. In years to come there might well be "new" Exeter's & Worcester's looking to push ahead.

Yareet

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Why not have a 14 club premiership, with relegation, & a one in fourteen chance is much sounder insurance for the big clubs. There needs to be a lot more support for the promoted team/teams. Why not have a "transfer window" from April to August, thus allowing the promoted team a fairer attempt at recruitment. I've always found it very odd that rugby recruitment is done & dusted by January in secret, which as said before gives the promoted team no chance. If the Championship winner received a significant cash bonus that would also help. The CVC cash should be used to help develop the underlying strength of the game as well as giving cash rich clubs even more cash. It can be done, just needs the right people. In years to come there might well be "new" Exeter's & Worcester's looking to push ahead.

My thoughts on these questions:

A 14-club Premiership would mean two more rounds of fixtures. We already have Prem games during the AIs and the 6N. When do you suggest adding in 2 more rounds?

In theory a transfer window already exists. It runs from Jan 1 until the season begins. You believe (and I agree) that this is already flouted so why would teams stick to any other window?

Not sure how many cash rich clubs there are. Aren’t they almost exclusively running at a loss?

Fearless Fred

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My thoughts on these questions:

A 14-club Premiership would mean two more rounds of fixtures. We already have Prem games during the AIs and the 6N. When do you suggest adding in 2 more rounds?

In theory a transfer window already exists. It runs from Jan 1 until the season begins. You believe (and I agree) that this is already flouted so why would teams stick to any other window?

Not sure how many cash rich clubs there are. Aren’t they almost exclusively running at a loss?

A 14 team Prem would actually mean 4 more games (two extra home & away). You only have to look at the Top14 to see how long that season goes on. The other alternative is a pool stage like the Pro14. In some ways I'd say that's preferable to a straight 14 team simple league.

Camquin

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Either 13 or 14 need four extra weeks - but with thirteen you get two bye weeks.
One solution would of course be to drop the cup for more league fixtures.

You would need to get European rugby to grant extra places and also get RFU to agree.

The big problem is where would the funding for those clubs come from. There would not be any more TV or RFU funding, and even though there would be no parachute funding, there would still be a large shortfall.

CVC are not in the business of funding rugby. They have already paid all they are going to - now they will be looking for a return. As I do not believe they have found new untapped countries to sell the coverage to, when they take 30% of the sales, their will be 30% less to distribute to the clubs.

So would any club treasurer be prepared to give up another tranche to fund more clubs.

InsertQuinsPunHere

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...
CVC are not in the business of funding rugby. They have already paid all they are going to - now they will be looking for a return. As I do not believe they have found new untapped countries to sell the coverage to, when they take 30% of the sales, their will be 30% less to distribute to the clubs.

...

This has summed up the CVC thing better than I ever could.

 

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