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Author Topic: Why do people rate O'Shea???  (Read 1881 times)

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Why do people rate O'Shea???
« on: »
I really don't get it!

Sure, Quins won the Prem with him as DoR, but from what I could see, he inherited a solid team from Deano, managed to keep the ship steady for a couple of years, and then everything rather went into reverse?  Needless to say, Italy's track record under his guidance was nothing but woeful either!

Am I missing something?

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #1 on: »
Yup, I think you are but that's not to say that I would want him back - at the same time, I wasn't a player that was managed by him, so his real benefits remain unknown to me, but he achieved more than simply "inherited Deano's team"...

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #2 on: »
He inherited a team that was something of a shambles after Deano humiliated the club with Bloodgate. Quins had good players, but the leadership was broken by Bloodgate, and Quins were a nuggety team who lacked a bit of attacking edge.

COS oversaw a complete overhaul of the Quins style of play, promoted more youth, and took a decent team and turned it into a title-winning one, playing a fabulous brand of rugby and ensuring we kept hold of pretty much every important player we had.

It just isn't true to say he "kept the ship steady". Under Deano, we had one good season - the Bloodgate season of 2008/09 - that ended with us getting absolutely hammered (0-17!) in the playoff semi-final, at home, against London Irish. We also lost some important players after that, particularly Mike Ross who'd been a huge part of our scrum dominance.  The team essentially fell apart and were pretty useless. COS took over in March 2010.

After that... it wasn't perfect but in his first season we beat Munster away on the way to winning silverware in the Amlin, which included an epic final showcasing our never-say-die attitude and the talent in the team. In 2011-12 we won the league playing an awesome brand of fast-paced, offloading rugby. In 2012-13 we made the playoffs again and won the Anglo-Welsh cup. In 2013-14 we made the playoffs again.

It didn't last with COS but he did some wonderful stuff for the club: he really promoted a lot of youth, he committed us to a brilliant style of rugby, he turned things around after the disaster of Bloodgate, and he won us multiple trophies.

You only have to look at how bad things were immediately post-Deano, and how mediocre we were before Deano's final season, to realise what he achieved at the club.

Both guys deserve credit for some canny signings and allowing the youth to prosper. But I feel Deano gets a bit too much credit for things that happened years after his departure.

These are the teams for the biggest games (Bloodgate match and the Premiership final):

Harlequins: Brown, Strettle, Tiesi, Turner-Hall, Monye; N Evans, Care; Jones, Botha, Ross, Percival, Robson, Robshaw, Skinner (capt), Easter.
Replacements: Malone for N Evans (47), J Evans for Percival (69), Williams for Malone (69). Not Used: Fuga, Lambert, Guest, Gomarsall.

Harlequins: Brown; Williams, Lowe, Turner-Hall, Monye; Evans, Care; Marler, Gray, Johnston, Kohn, Robson, Fa'asavalu, Robshaw, Easter.
Replacements: Buchanan, Lambert, Collier, Vallejos, Guest, Dickson, Clegg, Hopper.

That's no Strettle, Tiesi, Jones, Botha, Ross, Percival, Skinner (plus Malone, Fuga, Gomersall). Kohn was injured for the Leinster game IIRC.
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Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #3 on: »
And everyone has been terrible with Italy!

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #4 on: »
I don't think you're missing something as such, he was good for Quins.

He guided the team to three trophies in three seasons. but after 2012, Quins were finishing lower down the table. I think the decision to keep the bulk of the best players on a higher salary and have a reduced squad number probably hindered Quins in that sense.

If they let a couple go early on and allow the yong'uns to play, we would have had the balance of experience and strength in depth to compete on all fronts, particularly when the likes of Brown, Care, Marler and Robshaw were on international duty.

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #5 on: »
He's usually credited with having added the last bit of tactical nous to the team that Deano built - tightening up the defence a little, letting loose the attack and increasing the emphasis on high tempo and flooding the channels. He also made some smart squad decisions - Mo Fa'asavalu was one of his - and if he did nothing else did two things that won us the final:

1) he took the team to Abu Dhabi to train (Tigers stayed at Welford Road). Around the middle of the week I read that the temperature on the pitch was expected to top 30 degrees on the Saturday and that was the first moment I felt we could win

2) the "playing off Robshaw" tactic for the Final itself, which completely changed the dynamic of the game - it gave NEv much more time to run the game.

After that, we did get to the playoffs for the following two seasons, but the wear and tear in the squad was apparent. It was also the point at which the fruits of Saracens' ill-given gains started to pay off, so it was always going to be an uphill battle.

Outside of Quins, his reputation at the English Institute of Sport, the RFU and in Italy was as someone who was really good at putting in place the structures for long term success - the current academy systems was largely his brainchild, IIRC, and if you look at what he did with Italy it was the same sort of game. His current RFU role is essentially playing Billy Millard to Eddie's [situation vacant].

I'm not sure he'd sit well in the current structure, but in the right role I'd be delighted to see him back with Quins. However, for now Millard is doing the role that I think would suit him best, and seems to be doing a great job of it.
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Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #6 on: »
After that, we did get to the playoffs for the following two seasons, but the wear and tear in the squad was apparent. It was also the point at which the fruits of Saracens' ill-given gains started to pay off, so it was always going to be an uphill battle.

Not just wear and tear - after the Premiership success, we lost 4-6 players to the England side, having had comparatively little representation before that - which probably added to the wear and tear...
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Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #7 on: »
Not just wear and tear - after the Premiership success, we lost 4-6 players to the England side, having had comparatively little representation before that - which probably added to the wear and tear...

And Lowe got upended and dislocated his head, which also didn't help. Still one of the great losses to the game.
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Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #8 on: »
And everyone has been terrible with Italy!

Vespasian and Hadrian were pretty decent in ancient amateur times, especially in the Nascent Euro competitions: had the then 4 Nations on toast...
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Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #9 on: »
He inherited a team that was something of a shambles after Deano humiliated the club with Bloodgate. Quins had good players, but the leadership was broken by Bloodgate, and Quins were a nuggety team who lacked a bit of attacking edge.

COS oversaw a complete overhaul of the Quins style of play, promoted more youth, and took a decent team and turned it into a title-winning one, playing a fabulous brand of rugby and ensuring we kept hold of pretty much every important player we had.

It just isn't true to say he "kept the ship steady". Under Deano, we had one good season - the Bloodgate season of 2008/09 - that ended with us getting absolutely hammered (0-17!) in the playoff semi-final, at home, against London Irish. We also lost some important players after that, particularly Mike Ross who'd been a huge part of our scrum dominance.  The team essentially fell apart and were pretty useless. COS took over in March 2010.

After that... it wasn't perfect but in his first season we beat Munster away on the way to winning silverware in the Amlin, which included an epic final showcasing our never-say-die attitude and the talent in the team. In 2011-12 we won the league playing an awesome brand of fast-paced, offloading rugby. In 2012-13 we made the playoffs again and won the Anglo-Welsh cup. In 2013-14 we made the playoffs again.

It didn't last with COS but he did some wonderful stuff for the club: he really promoted a lot of youth, he committed us to a brilliant style of rugby, he turned things around after the disaster of Bloodgate, and he won us multiple trophies.

You only have to look at how bad things were immediately post-Deano, and how mediocre we were before Deano's final season, to realise what he achieved at the club.

Both guys deserve credit for some canny signings and allowing the youth to prosper. But I feel Deano gets a bit too much credit for things that happened years after his departure.

These are the teams for the biggest games (Bloodgate match and the Premiership final):

Harlequins: Brown, Strettle, Tiesi, Turner-Hall, Monye; N Evans, Care; Jones, Botha, Ross, Percival, Robson, Robshaw, Skinner (capt), Easter.
Replacements: Malone for N Evans (47), J Evans for Percival (69), Williams for Malone (69). Not Used: Fuga, Lambert, Guest, Gomarsall.

Harlequins: Brown; Williams, Lowe, Turner-Hall, Monye; Evans, Care; Marler, Gray, Johnston, Kohn, Robson, Fa'asavalu, Robshaw, Easter.
Replacements: Buchanan, Lambert, Collier, Vallejos, Guest, Dickson, Clegg, Hopper.

That's no Strettle, Tiesi, Jones, Botha, Ross, Percival, Skinner (plus Malone, Fuga, Gomersall). Kohn was injured for the Leinster game IIRC.

Yea but other than that what else did he do for us?
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Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #10 on: »
He guided the team to three trophies in three seasons. but after 2012, Quins were finishing lower down the table.

Lower down than what? Obviously we can't win it every season, but...

Under Deano:

Promotion
7th (06/07)
6th
2nd

Then Bloodgate happened, the next season CoS only joined in March
8th (09/10)
7th
1st & Champions (11/12)
3rd (12/13)
4th (13/14)
8th (14/15)
7th (15/16)

We won the title in 2012, but remained a top 4 team for 2 more seasons.


Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #11 on: »
Lower down than what? Obviously we can't win it every season, but...

Under Deano:

Promotion
7th (06/07)
6th
2nd

Then Bloodgate happened, the next season CoS only joined in March
8th (09/10)
7th
1st & Champions (11/12)
3rd (12/13)
4th (13/14)
8th (14/15)
7th (15/16)

We won the title in 2012, but remained a top 4 team for 2 more seasons.



Lower down with each consecutive season.

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #12 on: »
OK but we're talking a couple of points difference over the course of the season - after our win we were still a better team than Deano had put together. That 4th place was 67 points, one better than Deano's Quins ever managed. The 3rd place was 69 points. Seems like a fairly irrelevant difference - the issue was our sudden lurch to being bad in 2014/15 when we only managed 49 points.

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #13 on: »
OK but we're talking a couple of points difference over the course of the season - after our win we were still a better team than Deano had put together. That 4th place was 67 points, one better than Deano's Quins ever managed. The 3rd place was 69 points. Seems like a fairly irrelevant difference - the issue was our sudden lurch to being bad in 2014/15 when we only managed 49 points.

OK

Re: Why do people rate O'Shea???
« Reply #14 on: »
I really don't get it!

Sure, Quins won the Prem with him as DoR, but from what I could see, he inherited a solid team from Deano, managed to keep the ship steady for a couple of years, and then everything rather went into reverse?  Needless to say, Italy's track record under his guidance was nothing but woeful either!

Am I missing something?

Kermit you are right.

I simply don't get it. He did nothing for Quins and he did nothing for Italy, and it now looks as though he is doing nothing for England.

I will be generous. I will give him nought out of ten.