ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: Quintron on Saturday 03-Apr-2021, 15:34*
-
The long and short of it is this: [but one bit of pertinent out-of-club detail is missing]
1) Mike Brown and the club were in contract negotiations. Brown had rejected the first offer from the club (from early 2020), and was chasing them to talk about it for quite some time.
A) Imposition of reduced salary cap
2) In December, Quins changed their mind about offering Brown any kind of contract, decided he was surplus to requirements at the club, and told Mike Brown this.
3) Brown was understandably surprised and hurt by this, and ends up talking to Dean Richards, and they agree Brown will join Falcons on a contract that Brown is happy with.
4) Paul Gustard gets binned off.
5) Quins belatedly realise they've made a mistake and come back with some reduced offers, which Brown rejects because he's already agreed to join Falcons.
B) Quins improve. Brown's personal form is excellent.
[Bold Italic text is my addition]
I think that salary cap announcement needs inserting (reduced cap must have had some effect on salaries, especially older members, how ever good/great they may have been/may still be) and the time lines need minor amending.
-
First point: we don’t know. There are a lot of details here that have not been made public
And plenty that have been. I'm not sure you've listened to what Laurie actually said!
Second point: you are making a lot of assumptions about what the club did and didn’t do, and repeatedly saying that you don’t trust what they have said. I have set out a possible version of events that is consistent with what both sides have said.
Is the second point the Gustard thing? I'm sorry, but if you're trying to set out your own version of events then starting with something that's obviously wrong isn't a good start! Gustard wasn't some club-hopper, and he ended up being at Saracens for well over a decade - he knows full well how clubs deal with "legend" players.
Third point: “suddenly decide that they don't want to offer him anything at all and instead want him to leave at the end of the season” is making a huge and unwarranted assumption. As I said in my previous post, if the club had made an offer (which we know they did) which Mike had rejected (which we know he did) and they weren’t at the time prepared to offer anything more (which we know is the case) then at some point there has to be a conversation that says “well, if you don’t want what’s on the table, we can’t extend your contract and therefore you will be leaving at the end of the season.”
What’s your source for saying they “flat out withdrew all offers”? I’ve seen nothing that says that happened.
The source is... Laurie Dalrymple. Seriously, did you listen to what he said? He made it incredibly clear that the club changed their mind about Mike Brown in December and decided they didn't want him any more. He even gives the various reasons why!
"Subsequently, in December, the club took the decision that we were not going to extend his contract, for multiple reasons: not least, trying to accommodate an ever-changing recruitment, retention landscape; players in our academy developing faster than we'd thought; then, linked to that, looking at how we transition the squad in seasons to come." - Laurie Dalrymple's words. That isn't "the club informed Mike Brown that no better offer would be forthcoming". It's "the club informed Mike Brown that we didn't want him any more, for x y z reasons". Hence, no offer any more. Just leave.
We completely agree that there needs to be a conversation that says "we can't offer you any more than what we've offered, so it's either that, or we negotiate something else [this could be a contract not paying as well but has other benefits], or that's it". But it's clear from both Brown and Dalrymple that this conversation never happened. Hence, the infamous four-minute "we don't want you any more, good luck with your future" meeting.
And even if you do have a source, do you have inside knowledge of how the discussions had proceeded before that? There’s a massive difference between “What we can offer isn’t what you want and we can’t improve our position, but you keep asking to negotiate so all we can do is withdraw our offer to make the point” and “We weren’t that far apart but we’ve decided we want to withdraw the offer we had on the table”. One of those is much more reasonable than the other.
There are several questions to answer here:
1) Did the club make the right rugby decision in not giving Mike a contract that was acceptable to him? Arguably, arguably not. We can’t answer this without inside knowledge that I know I don’t have.
2) Did the club fail to recognise how emotional this was for Mike and adapt their approach accordingly? Yes. This is the one thing we know for certain they got wrong - albeit with hindsight.
3) Did the club conduct the negotiations in a reasonable manner? We don’t know - but equally, unless you assume the club is lying then their side of the story is pretty reasonable. They made 3 offers; none of the offers were accepted.
I'm not accusing the club of lying. On the contrary, I'm taking Laurie Dalrymple at his word. You're the one who can't accept what LD has actually said. I do think his mentioning the other 2 offers, after the damage had been done and Brown had already sorted out his future, is deeply disingenuous and a deliberate attempt to cloud the issue - but I've never said he lied about it.
The long and short of it is this:
1) Mike Brown and the club were in contract negotiations. Brown had rejected the first offer from the club (from early 2020), and was chasing them to talk about it for quite some time.
2) In December, Quins changed their mind about offering Brown any kind of contract, decided he was surplus to requirements at the club, and told Mike Brown this.
3) Brown was understandably surprised and hurt by this, and ends up talking to Dean Richards, and they agree Brown will join Falcons on a contract that Brown is happy with.
4) Paul Gustard gets binned off. Quins improve. Brown's personal form is excellent.
5) Quins belatedly realise they've made a mistake and come back with some reduced offers, which Brown rejects because he's already agreed to join Falcons.
-
The Salary Cap reduction from £6.4m to £5m was announced on June 10th - this must have has some bearing on how subsequent offers, whether made or not (in the sense that they may have been discussed but not formally offered), were treated. It will have changed the dynamic of the discussion at the very least.
I'm really not sure that arguing about the minutiae of a deal that we know very little about serves much purpose and only seems to sour, aggravate and invite unnecessary conspiracy in some minds.
PG has paid the price for his part; I'm not sure how much Maynard or Dalrymple had to do with it (i.e. it was up to PG to decide), and reading the pages written on the subject here, I am still none the wiser, although Poorfour seems to have the best tack.
-
Mike Brown may have turned down a contract offer from the club 12 months ago. We have LD's words for this, but not MB's. Perhaps LD is overstating it as a contract offer refused, perhaps MB doesn't see it as refused, simply as ongoing negotiation.
MB has said he then chased the club a number of times as to what was happening with his contract. Here we have MB's words but not LD's. However, it doesn't seem unreasonable MB would want to know what was happening and try and get it buttoned down. And not unreasonable that not getting an answer he asked more than once.
If MB was told in the famous 4 minute meeting that he was surplus to requirements, then I think you can be pretty sure the original offer (if there was one) was no longer on the table.
MB would not have said that he went back to the club in the New Year to ask if anything had changed if in fact something had changed, like he'd been offered the second contract. The club told him nothing had changed and only then did he get serious about the move to Newcastle and sign the contract.
So we know (as well as we can) the 2 contract offers must have followed after he'd signed a contract and given his word to Deano. One of those offers was pretty low (according to MB) and we can assume it was because it was followed by a third offer. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the third offer had better terms than the second.
I think you can explain the difference in the first offer according to the different viewpoints of those involved. If the club came up with a package that didn't meet MB's expectations, MB might say "Sorry, that's not good enough", viewing this as the opening gambit of a contract negotiation. The club is portraying this as a flat out refusal, which sounds a bit fishy to me. A lot of players must refuse the club's opening gambit on a contract (their agents will if only to justify their fees). I suspect the club then simply put negotiations on ice until PG made up his mind whether he wanted to keep MB or not. If he decided MB had to go, then no further negotiations. If PG decided to keep him, then negotiations would re-open. That would explain why MB didn't talk about a contract offer in March, if he saw it simply as the start of negotiations. Then the offer was withdrawn when he was told he was surplus to requirements. So for him there never was a contract offered. Just negotiations started that were subsequently cancelled.
The two contract offers in the New Year are red herrings. The club came back with a low offer (I assume not as low as the original one - but who knows?) and when MB said no they presumably upped the ante. However it's pretty clear from MB's piece in the Mail that by that time he'd given his word and wasn't going to break it.
Mike Brown only mentions the one contract offer from the club (and a low one at that) after he'd done the deal with Deano. I suspect he didn't mention what LD calls the third because at the time of the interview for the Mail, the third offer hadn't been made.
-
First point: we don’t know. There are a lot of details here that have not been made public
Second point: you are making a lot of assumptions about what the club did and didn’t do, and repeatedly saying that you don’t trust what they have said. I have set out a possible version of events that is consistent with what both sides have said.
Third point: “suddenly decide that they don't want to offer him anything at all and instead want him to leave at the end of the season” is making a huge and unwarranted assumption. As I said in my previous post, if the club had made an offer (which we know they did) which Mike had rejected (which we know he did) and they weren’t at the time prepared to offer anything more (which we know is the case) then at some point there has to be a conversation that says “well, if you don’t want what’s on the table, we can’t extend your contract and therefore you will be leaving at the end of the season.”
What’s your source for saying they “flat out withdrew all offers”? I’ve seen nothing that says that happened.
And even if you do have a source, do you have inside knowledge of how the discussions had proceeded before that? There’s a massive difference between “What we can offer isn’t what you want and we can’t improve our position, but you keep asking to negotiate so all we can do is withdraw our offer to make the point” and “We weren’t that far apart but we’ve decided we want to withdraw the offer we had on the table”. One of those is much more reasonable than the other.
There are several questions to answer here:
1) Did the club make the right rugby decision in not giving Mike a contract that was acceptable to him? Arguably, arguably not. We can’t answer this without inside knowledge that I know I don’t have.
2) Did the club fail to recognise how emotional this was for Mike and adapt their approach accordingly? Yes. This is the one thing we know for certain they got wrong - albeit with hindsight.
3) Did the club conduct the negotiations in a reasonable manner? We don’t know - but equally, unless you assume the club is lying then their side of the story is pretty reasonable. They made 3 offers; none of the offers were accepted.
-
I think you’re making a distinction that isn’t there. If I’ve made an offer that you haven’t accepted, and I’m not willing or able to improve my offer, then when the contract ends, you’re off. Clearly, that can be communicated and received in different ways.
“We can’t offer you the extension you want, so we can’t extend your contract” is an entirely reasonable position for a club to take. It’s also reasonable, for Mike to have a strong emotional response to a statement like that.
No, I think you're missing the point. It was entirely reasonable that Mike would expect the club to either come back and say "the offer we gave you is the best you're going to get", OR to negotiate with him. The offer means they wanted him to stay at the club. He wanted better terms. The expectation is either they match his terms or they negotiate (which can include saying 'we really can't offer you anything better'), NOT that they suddenly decide that they don't want to offer him anything at all and instead want him to leave at the end of the season.
Quins went from having their first offer rejected, to flat-out withdrawing all offers and saying they didn't want him any more. They didn't tell Mike Brown that the previous offer was the only way he was staying at the club, they said they weren't renewing his contract and were refusing to negotiate. That is a huge difference.
Think of it like this. If you go to a market and you want to buy an item, and the seller wants £30 for it, and you offer them £20, the expectation is you'll haggle. Alternatively, the seller will go "no, that's as low as I can go". You don't expect the seller to remove the item from sale after thinking about it for ages.
Laurie has flat-out said they changed their minds about Mike Brown and decided they didn't want to extend his contract. So you can see why Mike Brown would be surprised that they changed their minds, as they'd never given him an inkling that they might not want him.
The issue, it seems to me, is that Gustard (a man who let’s not forget changed clubs several times as both a player and a coach, and who was clearly struggling with the man management aspects of his first DoR role) failed to appreciate what that would mean to Mike (who has been loyal to a single club for nearly 20 years), and didn’t deliver the message well.
?!
Gustard wasn't some kind of club-hopper. 6 years at Tigers followed by 5 years at London Irish followed by three years at Saracens, as a player, would stand up very well against the vast majority of professional players. That it was then followed by 9 years as a coach at Sarries, the only club he'd coached at prior to Quins, meaning he was at Saracens for over a decade as player and coach suggests you're a long way off the mark there!
I don’t think Laurie is being disingenuous at all. The club made three offers, Mike rejected three offers. Remember that at the time this happened, he wasn’t playing well and this board was openly speculating that he needed to be “moved on” or “let go”.
It IS being disingenuous. The club made two offers *after* they'd told Mike Brown he wasn't wanted any more and that his time at the club would end at the end of the season, and *after* Mike Brown had spoken to another club and given his word to them that he'd join them as a result. It's meaningless - all it does is show how badly the club acted, how poor a decision it was to begin with, and how clueless they've been in this whole period. Those two offers are tacit admission from the club that they completely ballsed it up.
Again, as someone who said when the first rumour of him leaving this season came about that it might not be the worst thing for the club, the problem is how it was handled.
-
this board was openly speculating that he needed to be “moved on” or “let go”.
some of this board
-
It's not "not getting a better offer". It's no offer at all.
Hmm, no. From what Laurie said, Quins went from having an offer which they were discussing, to saying they didn't want him at all:
That's not "you're not getting a better offer", that's "we don't want you here any more after your contract ends, cheerio".
So Mike Brown's surprise at being binned off makes perfect sense. There was an offer previously, there was some level of negotiation, Brown was chasing for updates, then Quins suddenly decided that actually they wanted to get rid of him.
LD is being pretty disingenuous with the "three offers" stuff. Yeah, great - two of those came after he'd been treated terribly and had therefore given his word to Deano about joining Falcons, after Gustard had been sacked, and after Brown's form (and Quins') had improved!
I think you’re making a distinction that isn’t there. If I’ve made an offer that you haven’t accepted, and I’m not willing or able to improve my offer, then when the contract ends, you’re off. Clearly, that can be communicated and received in different ways.
“We can’t offer you the extension you want, so we can’t extend your contract” is an entirely reasonable position for a club to take. It’s also reasonable, for Mike to have a strong emotional response to a statement like that.
The issue, it seems to me, is that Gustard (a man who let’s not forget changed clubs several times as both a player and a coach, and who was clearly struggling with the man management aspects of his first DoR role) failed to appreciate what that would mean to Mike (who has been loyal to a single club for nearly 20 years), and didn’t deliver the message well. The message needed to be “Look, we can’t offer an extension that will meet your needs, so let’s talk about how we give you the best send off we can under the circumstances, and make sure you have the support to make the transition to what you do next.”
Now it’s pretty clear that the offer of support was there and ongoing discussions were happening, and I can’t imagine that the club ever contemplated not giving Mike the best send off they could. But they didn’t address those in the infamous meeting when Mike clearly had a need for them to do it.
I don’t think Laurie is being disingenuous at all. The club made three offers, Mike rejected three offers. Remember that at the time this happened, he wasn’t playing well and this board was openly speculating that he needed to be “moved on” or “let go”.
-
It's not "not getting a better offer". It's no offer at all.
Hmm, no. From what Laurie said, Quins went from having an offer which they were discussing, to saying they didn't want him at all:
That's not "you're not getting a better offer", that's "we don't want you here any more after your contract ends, cheerio".
So Mike Brown's surprise at being binned off makes perfect sense. There was an offer previously, there was some level of negotiation, Brown was chasing for updates, then Quins suddenly decided that actually they wanted to get rid of him.
LD is being pretty disingenuous with the "three offers" stuff. Yeah, great - two of those came after he'd been treated terribly and had therefore given his word to Deano about joining Falcons, after Gustard had been sacked, and after Brown's form (and Quins') had improved!
We have had our disagreements but I'm entirely with you here JG.
-
It's not "not getting a better offer". It's no offer at all.
It probably did. But the additional context from the Laurie interview is that prior to that he had been offered a contract that he had not accepted. Clearly he was hoping for a better offer, but didn’t get one.
Subsequent to Gustard leaving, Quins did come back with two better offers, but by that time he was emotionally (if not contractually) committed to Falcons.
Hmm, no. From what Laurie said, Quins went from having an offer which they were discussing, to saying they didn't want him at all:
Subsequently, in December, the club took the decision that we were not going to extend his contract
That's not "you're not getting a better offer", that's "we don't want you here any more after your contract ends, cheerio".
So Mike Brown's surprise at being binned off makes perfect sense. There was an offer previously, there was some level of negotiation, Brown was chasing for updates, then Quins suddenly decided that actually they wanted to get rid of him.
LD is being pretty disingenuous with the "three offers" stuff. Yeah, great - two of those came after he'd been treated terribly and had therefore given his word to Deano about joining Falcons, after Gustard had been sacked, and after Brown's form (and Quins') had improved!
-
I'm surprised LD didn't say "we've had a clear the air meeting with Mike and we've put that incident behind us and have agreed we're going to focus on the rest of the season going forward". Of course you can't say it if it didn't happen.
-
TBF, we do not know that there has not been an apology to Brown, in private.
-
It probably did. But the additional context from the Laurie interview is that prior to that he had been offered a contract that he had not accepted. Clearly he was hoping for a better offer, but didn’t get one.
Subsequent to Gustard leaving, Quins did come back with two better offers, but by that time he was emotionally (if not contractually) committed to Falcons.
So it was just four minutes to tell him that he wasn't getting a better offer leaving an employee who has given his adult life to a business to leave the building in tears? Where's the care and emotional support?
I heard a lot of fine words from LD but nothing to deny this was the case or to apologise for it.
-
Very good
-
June 2020: PG TO MB: sorry Mike but we can only offer you an extra year at 50% of your current salary because we want to bring young talent through. I will get Andy Sanger to speak to you about life after rugby.
AS TO MB: Mike, what do you want to do after rugby?
MB: maybe flanker or hooker?
Oct 2020: MB TO DC: DC this is crap. Our rugby is basically defend, kick for territory and if we get near their line put a little grubber through and hope we fall on it. This isn’t Quins
DC: I know mate. I have nightmares about caterpillars. That’s why I am concentrating on getting out and becoming a pundit. A word of advice though - don’t let them make you stand next to Martin Bayfield.
Nov 2020: In middle of lockdown, MB has trouble with his eyesight so decides to check it out by driving to Newcastle and meet Dean Richards.
DR TO MB: You are still a top player. If you are unhappy we will give you a decent contract. But don’t tell anyone I spoke to you - I am an ex-copper and don’t want to do anything illegal.
Dec 2020: PG in bed 2am: ****, how am I going to tell an HQ legend he has to leave in June?
Next day PG TO MB: Mike you are a legend, fantastic player, huge history but we have no job for you. Anything to say?
MB: What is there to say? ( length of meeting 3m 46s)
Jan 2021: Laurie Dalrymple to PG: Paul, we play crap rugby, you have alienated several good coaches, a lot of the players, the fans don’t support you ( though that is not unusual), and sadly you have a very low emotional intelligence. The final straw is the way you dealt with MB. Off you go,
LD TO MB: Sorry Mike, we got it wrong. Here is a slightly better contract.
MB: 1. How do I know things are going to get better after the last 5 years of disastrous management? 2. I am going to work with someone who I know believes in me. So sorry LD but FO....
-
Picked up by The Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/04/09/mike-brown-turned-three-contract-offers-claims-harlequins-chief/)
Mike Brown turned down 'three contract offers', claims Harlequins chief executive Laurie Dalrymple
Dalrymple's claims directly contradict those of Brown, who is leaving for Newcastle Falcons against his wishes
By Charles Richardson
9 April 2021 • 8:16pm
(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/rugby-union/2021/04/09/TELEMMGLPICT000254434502_trans_NvBQzQNjv4Bq-wioWl5aH7fAEJ8IWJw2YyYXfEVsGd8gJRvFnmyg14I.jpeg?imwidth=960)
Mike Brown has been with Harlequins for 17 years CREDIT: Mike Jones/News Images /News Images
Harlequins chief executive Laurie Dalrymple has revealed that departing club stalwart Mike Brown turned down three contract offers that would have seen him remain at the Twickenham Stoop beyond the end of this season.
Brown, 35, announced in last weekend's Mail on Sunday that he did not wish to leave Harlequins but had signed for Newcastle Falcons from the start of the 2021-22 season. The England full-back was told that he was surplus to requirements in a four-minute meeting by Harlequins' former head of rugby, Paul Gustard.
While Brown did acknowledge that his longstanding club returned with a counter offer which was too late, Dalrymple said that "some balanced context" was required in an interview with the club's in-house communications team.
"There is ultimately going to be two perspectives on the discussion, and there's going to be quite a bit written in the media and on social media regarding the loyalty that exists within the club - and I want to rigorously defend that," the Harlequins CEO said.
(https://cf.eip.telegraph.co.uk/responsive-image/content/2806a98112ea842d7d2fe72a187ebaa6c066784d/1616752806395.png)
"Regarding Mike, we began discussions with him on his contract in February 2020. Subsequently, in December, the club took the decision that we were not going to extend his contract, for multiple reasons: not least, trying to accommodate an ever-changing recruitment, retention landscape; players in our academy developing faster than we'd thought; then, linked to that, looking at how we transition the squad in seasons to come.
"Except, though, in the New Year, we did have a slight change of position on things, and we offered two further contracts to Mike. So, in total, over the last 12 months we have made three contract offers to Mike. He has chosen to turn all of those down."
Dalrymple said, too, that Harlequins' player-welfare officer had been in regular contact with Brown regarding his transition to life after rugby. Dalrymple added that he could not comment further on the situation due to the ongoing confidentiality between employer and employee.
"It's a bit difficult to comment much further in some ways because the conversations that are being had are between an individual and their employer," Dalrymple added. "I do firmly believe that much, if not all, of those conversations should firmly remain in private. However, Mike has been here for 17 years; he will be regarded among the supporter base and within the club as a legend - of that I'm certain.
"It saddens me that he feels we have let him down in some way. We hope that we're going to finish the season as strongly as we can and, when we've done that, we will obviously wish Mike and his family all the very best of luck as he moves to Newcastle."
-
OK - I've listened to Laurie Dalrymple three times now, and this is the timeline of what he's saying
started discussions Feb 2020
In december took decision not to extend contract - multiple reasons, development of academy players who need paying, transition squad for 3/4 years time
In New Year made two further contract offers.
So in total, made 3 contract offers to Mike in last 12 months
The first thing I take from that is the first contract offer must have been made 12 months ago (else why say 3 over 12 months) so discussions Feb, contract offer March. Seem reasonable?
In most negotiations, the buying party will offer a low initial figure, while the selling party comes back with an over the top figure, they then haggle and settle somewhere in between. I suspect this is why MB turned the first offer down, you always turn the first one down.
Mike Brown says in his article There was no, “Thanks for your efforts, we’ll help you with your future”. This seems to be the opposite of what LD said. Maybe Mike doesn't regard what the club has provided as useful.
‘Dean said, “Are you sure about this?” I went back to the club after Gussy had left and asked if anything had changed, but they said no. That was that. Dean said, “What do you want?” I told him my fair market value and he knew I wasn’t taking the p*ss, so it was signed there and then. Done and dusted within a day.
Note "That was that." I strongly suspect that Mike Brown is one of those straight up, straight down people, who if he gives his word doesn't go back on it no matter what is offered. Also, he said the deal was signed in a day. Perfectly possible with email and scanners these days. Once signed I don't think he'd break a contract.
‘At the start of last week, Quins did actually come back to me and, in a roundabout way, said they had changed their mind. They pushed a pretty low offer my way, but I had already signed with Newcastle and given my word to Dean, so it was too late.
So I suspect there must have been a second contract offer after he signed which was a sweetened version of contract one (is that the one he's referring to there do you think?) and when that got turned down, I suspect the third option was more what Mike was looking for originally (you don't just keep repeating contract one) but as he'd given his word to Deano he wouldn't change his mind and that was all there was to it.
Also of course, he is/was feeling pretty shafted by the club so unlikely to change his mind.
It's sad that it had to end this way. I don't forgive the club for how they handled it, it seems a mess. Maybe PG misread how much Mike was attached to the club, maybe he's no good handling terminations, maybe he thought short and sharp was best.
Interesting question for LD - how long was the meeting with PG in which he got the chop? And what was the tone of it?
Sorry - just remembered the other thing I was going to say. For all we know MB might well have spoke about the original contract offer, but the Mail cut it for brevity!
-
So did the meeting in which Brown was told he wasn't to be offered a new contract last four minutes or not?
That remains the issue for me.
It probably did. But the additional context from the Laurie interview is that prior to that he had been offered a contract that he had not accepted. Clearly he was hoping for a better offer, but didn’t get one.
Subsequent to Gustard leaving, Quins did come back with two better offers, but by that time he was emotionally (if not contractually) committed to Falcons.
-
So did the meeting in which Brown was told he wasn't to be offered a new contract last four minutes or not?
That remains the issue for me.
If Brown said it did then there is no reason to not believe him. The fact that the person responsible in that (PG) is no longer at the club is a good sign (imho). Does not change that fact it happened but its tough to tar the whole club based on one person actions. The fact we have this chap conducting a full review also is positive in that the club realises mistake(s) has/have been made and are trying to rectify that.
Also, this ties in with what Arniepie said a while ago, PG was bad news around the club
-
So did the meeting in which Brown was told he wasn't to be offered a new contract last four minutes or not?
That remains the issue for me.
-
Other clubs are allowed to approach players in January - and usually have their offers ready. Mike mentioned that he’d stayed in touch with Deano over the years, so the chances are that he knew after the December conversation that Mike was on the market and what he would be looking for.
I doubt the contract was actually signed in January, because otherwise there would be no point in Quins making the two counter offers that Laurie mentioned, but it’s very likely that Mike had an offer from Falcons on the table that he was broadly happy with and the rest was about hammering out the details.
That was kind of my point, so Quins offered Brown a deal (after the initial non offer) while he had not officially signed on the dotted line for Falcons??
-
I cant see how Brown had agreed and was signed sealed and delivered to Newcastle in just one month (Dec-Jan) unless he was talking to them earlier?? If that was the case then he would have been talking to them while talking to Quins?? He may have been in talks with Newcastle between Dec and Jan, Id be surprised if it was a done deal (I could be wrong)
Other clubs are allowed to approach players in January - and usually have their offers ready. Mike mentioned that he’d stayed in touch with Deano over the years, so the chances are that he knew after the December conversation that Mike was on the market and what he would be looking for.
I doubt the contract was actually signed in January, because otherwise there would be no point in Quins making the two counter offers that Laurie mentioned, but it’s very likely that Mike had an offer from Falcons on the table that he was broadly happy with and the rest was about hammering out the details.
-
It does stack up. Contract negotiations aren’t a one step process, especially for a player nearing the end of their career. The club and the player have to find a balance between how long the player wants to keep playing, how many games they can put in, what they want to be paid and what happens afterwards.
In this particular case, there are two major things that have happened to disrupt the normal process. The sequence of events combining what Mike and Laurie have said is something like this:
- Feb 2020 - pre-COVID - Quins start discussing things with Mike
- At some point in 2020 a contract offer is made, Mike doesn’t accept it
- December 2020 - post-COVID and working under a new, much reduced salary cap - PG tells Mike that they aren’t going to make another offer
- January 2020 - PG goes
- Between January and April - the club makes Mike two revised offers; he rejects them both, in part because he’s got an offer that he likes from Newcastle
- Throughout, Mike had support from the club around what would happen after his playing career.
Everyone seems to accept that PG’s conversation with Mike was badly handled and actually wasn’t fully aligned to what the club wanted. But what we don’t know is what the club were offering Mike versus what Mike was looking for.
If Mike was asking for, say, a 3 year contract on full International money and an immediate transition into the senior coaching squad, then it would be reasonable for the club to say no. If the club were offering 1 year on squad player money and no support for a coaching transition, then it would be reasonable for Mike to say no. The reality is likely to have been somewhere in between. The club might have offered 1 year guaranteed with a 1 year option when Mike wanted 2, or they might have offered less support around coaching transition or less money than he wanted. We don’t know.
But another point that Laurie made was that looking at the succession plan within the club they needed to do something that left them room - in both playing time and salary cap - to keep the players they were planning to succeed Mike at fullback. The reference to the Academy was probably a reference to Lynagh, and I thought Green looked good at fullback against Ulster, one dropped high ball aside. Players of their potential won’t stick around if they can’t get regular game time.
-
Sorry yes, re-watching it he says:
Feb 20 - started discussing
Dec 20 - told MB not required
New Year 21 - had a re-think
I cant see how Brown had agreed and was signed sealed and delivered to Newcastle in just one month (Dec-Jan) unless he was talking to them earlier?? If that was the case then he would have been talking to them while talking to Quins?? He may have been in talks with Newcastle between Dec and Jan, Id be surprised if it was a done deal (I could be wrong)
-
As expected, two sides to every story. What LD says doesn't quite stack up. Says they offered him 3 contracts, but before that he says they started discussions in Feb 2020 (no mention of a contract offer), ultimately decided not to offer him an extension (the 4 min meeting?) then later had a change of heart and offered him two contracts which he turned down. Brown admitted as much himself, i.e. that they had a change of heart and came back to him, but by then he'd signed with Falcons for what he considered to be his market value.
Both sides have understandably put their slant on it. Mike failed to mention 10 months of negotiations, though we have no idea if he was strung along or if he was kept fully involved. LD doesn't say, rightly say, whether the offers they made after Gustard had left were comparable to what he was on.
As LD says, contractual negotiations are private and should remain so. Neither part comes out of it looking great, but the club still comes out looking worse having changed their mind and then made offers which were presumably way off what he could demand elsewhere.
Anyway, it is sad he is going, sad he feels let down by the club, but ultimately a decision has been made, the club will have to stand by it, Mike will try to show it was a mistake, the club has satisfied demands for their side of the story, so time to move on.
It's interesting though that LD says that other players developed quicker than they expected. Given that Lynagh and Green weren't involved until the last few months, I wonder who that would be? And between them they have one appearance at 15
-
I'm not sure that's quite right. He says they opened discussions in February. Then in December decided actually they weren't going to renew. So they strung him along for quite some time. And then they offered him a contract after he'd agreed terms with Newcastle.
But it's good to hear that Andy Sanger was involved in helping Mike plan for his future after rugby. Although that's not the same thing as planning for his future as a rugby player...
Sorry yes, re-watching it he says:
Feb 20 - started discussing
Dec 20 - told MB not required
New Year 21 - had a re-think
-
I'm not sure that's quite right. He says they opened discussions in February. Then in December decided actually they weren't going to renew. So they strung him along for quite some time. And then they offered him a contract after he'd agreed terms with Newcastle.
But it's good to hear that Andy Sanger was involved in helping Mike plan for his future after rugby. Although that's not the same thing as planning for his future as a rugby player...
We saying LD is lying then??? A lot can change between Feb and Dec, he said as much himself (younger players developing quicker than expected). He may have agreed terms, but was anything signed with Falcons?? If not, then he is still available to an offer from Quins.
-
I'm not sure that's quite right. He says they opened discussions in February. Then in December decided actually they weren't going to renew. So they strung him along for quite some time.
We don't know that at all. Maybe he was asking for too much money?
-
I'm not sure that's quite right. He says they opened discussions in February. Then in December decided actually they weren't going to renew. So they strung him along for quite some time. And then they offered him a contract after he'd agreed terms with Newcastle.
But it's good to hear that Andy Sanger was involved in helping Mike plan for his future after rugby. Although that's not the same thing as planning for his future as a rugby player...
-
Laurie Dalrymple interview just dropped on YouTube.
Short version: club have been talking to MB about his contract renewal for over a year. Originally they didn't want to renew, but had a 'change of heart' in December and have offered him 'several contracts over the last 12mths'
Not sure what to make of it; Timelines are a bit hazy and sounds like they were possibly too late as he'd already signed with Falcons after Gustard had made it clear he was unwanted. Clearly the 'change of heart' arose from the decision to bin off Gustard.
What a mess.
https://youtu.be/-XHmxV_YziQ
-
I’m disappointed by the situation, but the drama level in here is wild.
Some of us need to vent more than others. “In here” is a good place to do it. My wife isn’t interested in Mike Brown.
That’s not what she told me.
-
I’m disappointed by the situation, but the drama level in here is wild.
Some of us need to vent more than others. “In here” is a good place to do it. My wife isn’t interested in Mike Brown.
-
In fairness, we have yet to hear "the other side" — which there always is. It is likely to be very hard for the club to tell that side, for obvious reasons. I don't envy them one bit. Bad week. I realise how it all looks, but perhaps the "four minutes" was a short meeting just to confirm the final decision was not able to be overturned. Perhaps Mike walked out after four minutes, because that was the decision, and there was nothing more that could be said or needed to be said (maybe they had previously had long conversations and negotiations before that). Who knows, unless we hear that other side.
PS I am as appalled as anyone else with the way this appears to have been handled, based on everything we know to date.
-
I’m disappointed by the situation, but the drama level in here is wild.
-
The manner of this decision fully exposes the significant cultural disconnect between a management group and the long term playing group, as well as the many long term supporters.
Browngate (sorry) is the now very visual beacon of something malign and, hitherto Gustard's sacking, hidden.
Dalrymple's cultural review makes complete sense and boy how it's needed, but it'll take some b*lls to expose any review. It's going to be telling as to how this emerges, as to whether it's just papering over the cracks or a genuine attempt at renewal. I want, I need, something good to buy back into because I feel massively let down.
-
If it makes you feel any better, quite a few players got shafted like this with the initial Saffer takeover at Saracens.
It makes me feel better about feeling the Cheats had behaved decently for a change!
-
Yes the Club had a clear plan but it was executed very poorly. Maybe MB was a bit of a thorn in PG's side, who knows? The thing is its us the fans that have been disrespected as well as MB. In all scenarios in life you have exceptions to the rule and special cases. Mike Brown, without doubt, is very much a special case. Surely some sort of Ambassadorial Role while he went through his Coaching Badges, or something similar could have been organised?
-
It's not 6 months. The vast majority of recruitment is done and dusted at the beginning of the year.
Why would the club have entered in long drawn out talks with MB when there was only one scenario they wished to pursue at the time.
Because that's how a good club operates when dealing with club legends. If they were convinced they didn't want him any more, they should've been talking to him the moment they were considering that option rather than stringing him along. Perhaps they wanted rid of his wages - in which case, maybe he'd have been happy with a reduced deal.
It's incredibly unlikely that when they began the process of contract negotations they weren't thinking of getting rid of him. They hid that from him, though, which is the problem. You can't string a player like that along, allowing them to believe there's no need to worry about their future at the club, and then chop them out of the blue after weeks of delaying tactics, a few weeks before players sign with other clubs (having unofficially been negotiating with them for months).
When it comes to players like Brown, it's NOT just about performance on the pitch. I think the decision for him to move on isn't necessarily a bad one. I think it's been handled appallingly.
-
A player will know at any stage of their career a contract may be renewed or may not be renewed (its the same in all sports and most walks of life where you go from one contract to another). Why would the club have entered in long drawn out talks with MB when there was only one scenario they wished to pursue at the time. It also gave MB 6 months to sort himself out in terms of where he wanted to go or who would offer him a contract. You cannot make decisions on sentiment, and MB will be 36 next season so it was time for Quins to move on, what has clouded many views is that in the last 2 months he has been on the top of his game, where the previous 24 months people were questioning whether age had caught up with him. We do not know what had gone on with Brown and Gustard but one can assume by the way his performance levels changed when PG left suggest there was an issue. I think many fans get over attached to individuals that play for a club and not see it for what it is a team sport where players come and go. The fact that haunts me about MB is that he was still in close contact with a man who was prepared to let one of our young players and a teamate to take the blame for his actions.
-
And (as much as it sticks in my throat to say it) we could also ask Sarries to teach us how to show some respect to a club legend.
(And I don't mean via illegal payments).
If it makes you feel any better, quite a few players got shafted like this with the initial Saffer takeover at Saracens.
-
I can’t really add anything that hasn’t already been said about Mike. I’m so angry and disappointed at the way he was told he was no longer wanted. Lots of people already knew he would be gone as there was plenty of rumours ages ago. I can only assume that some of the players reaction to Gustards sacking were sarcastic or not quite what they seemed to mean, ie Joe Ms comments. It can’t be a coincidence that everything has been so much better after PGs sacking ( I wonder how he was told). As for who else was involved and how much involved we can only guess.
I too donated my season ticket money to the club as I have been very lucky and not affected by COVID-19 and lockdowns this last year. I did it because I’m in the cheap seats so it was only £215 or so but I did it because I hoped it would help to keep some of the general staff employed who weren’t in such a good position as I fortunately am. Don’t regret donating because of the Mike Brown situation, try looking at the bigger picture of the long term viability of the club. Only a couple of people were responsible and one of them has gone anyway.
-
Ask Sarries!
And (as much as it sticks in my throat to say it) we could also ask Sarries to teach us how to show some respect to a club legend.
(And I don't mean via illegal payments).
-
I have no idea what Mike intends to do after rugby, so for the purposes of this question I'll assume coaching but link it to a generic player.
If Player A wants to take steps into a coaching career, can a Club offer a (significantly?) reduced salary for the final 2 seasons of a playing journey, and then pay Player A more than they are worth as a coach to "bump up" the reduction in earnings from previous years?
This might be covered in the salary cap regs, I'm just wondering if anyone knows the answer before I go searching.
Ask Sarries!
-
I have no idea what Mike intends to do after rugby, so for the purposes of this question I'll assume coaching but link it to a generic player.
If Player A wants to take steps into a coaching career, can a Club offer a (significantly?) reduced salary for the final 2 seasons of a playing journey, and then pay Player A more than they are worth as a coach to "bump up" the reduction in earnings from previous years?
This might be covered in the salary cap regs, I'm just wondering if anyone knows the answer before I go searching.
-
It seems the whole thing has been handled badly. Brown deserved better than the way he was informed. Will it turn out the right move to let him go. I dont know. I cant really say until we know who is coming into the squad (and I just dont mean at FB, the Brown money is prob being used to help fund other positions also, in the grand scheme of things). I dont hold it against the club for letting him go, I just dont like how they done it.
Theres alot of talk about people being sacked, the culture of the club etc. Yes, they messed up in the way they handled it, but things have changed/are being done. PG has now left (I think this would have been another nail in his coffin tbh), we have brought that chap in to conduct a review of the club and the culture (I remember many on here querying why did we need him), this probably helps to explain that. Yes, the club handled it bad, yes they seem to be acting on that.
Calls for sackings etc are not needed imho (I appreciate others may feel different of course). Likewise, Im not sure of the need for a public apology etc. The only person that needs an apology is Brown, not for being let get go, but the manner it happened. I hope he gets one but why it needs to be public, I do not know (and i hope it isnt, I hope the club sort the issue privately). It could well be a case that they have , tbh I would be very surprised if not.
-
Putting my disgust of the handling to one side, the guy is still the best 15 at Quins by a country mile and arguably the best in the country. This was known in January, unlike one or two others we could mention. It wouldn't have been a sympathy vote to pay him good money for next season and solid money for the following season where perhaps he would have dropped to backup. The season he had off will have given him one back and he's clearly fit and still has speed, which is the first thing to go.
For so many reasons, this was unnecessary and avoidable and not befitting a player with a bar named after him.
-
keeping a player waiting and mid way through the last season call him in with a 4 minute chat is an appalling way to do it. 18 years service, a fan favourite that does not adherer to the clubs so called ethos:- commitment, loyalty, belief. If he was younger then maybe not so bad but at 35 that's not a lot of time to go sort something else out when clubs may not be wanting older players. JG's post says the simple things they should have done and totally agree.
-
The club decided he was going to go, he had a brief chat with the DoR when he was told his contract would not be extended.
a) He has not been sacked or made redundant
b) There wasn't a big fuss and MB was allowed to make his own announcement
c) The DoR didn't shirk his responsibilities he told him to his face.
So how would those of you knocking the club have done it?
Properly.
(For more detail see JG's post above).
-
The club decided he was going to go, he had a brief chat with the DoR when he was told his contract would not be extended.
a) He has not been sacked or made redundant
b) There wasn't a big fuss and MB was allowed to make his own announcement
c) The DoR didn't shirk his responsibilities he told him to his face.
Well if they were going to push him out the door why give him a bar the year before and why ask for supporters to finalise if they were going to give the Club credit earlier than planned for their ST. If they asked now huge numbers I think would take a refund.
So how would those of you knocking the club have done it?
-
The way other clubs tend to do it.
1) Keep an open dialogue with the player from the moment you start considering their future.
2) Allow some back-and-forth on the terms of the departure or an offer of an alternative contract
3) Don't leave it to the last second to inform the player that they're no longer needed at the club!
The bit you're disagreeing with people (and some players who've chipped in on this) is that "the club decided he was going to go" is where the club went wrong to begin with. When it comes to players like Brown - a club legend, a serious international (England's most-capped fullback), a player without peer at the club in his position, someone who came through the academy and has stayed with the club for 18 years - you don't just decide one day to bin them off and let them know with a quick chat. You do them the honour of keeping them informed and allowing them input on how their career winds down.
Listen to what Rory Best has to say here, while being diplomatic: https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1379105623003033605
-
The club decided he was going to go, he had a brief chat with the DoR when he was told his contract would not be extended.
a) He has not been sacked or made redundant
b) There wasn't a big fuss and MB was allowed to make his own announcement
c) The DoR didn't shirk his responsibilities he told him to his face.
So how would those of you knocking the club have done it?
-
The biggest issue for me is that he is not "leaving" - he has been pushed. Others went of their own volition, and we can speculate about why Sinks left, and why Baldwin left, and the apparently autocratic management causing serious problems. Brown didn't - he stayed loyal, and was shown the door. He's proved this season what we will miss next season, even though he didn't have to and could have just gone through the motions. The pundits are talking about him being an outside shout for the Lions, and we've shown him the door.
I remember a club that proudly boasted about Commitment, Loyalty and Belief. I don't see any commitment or loyalty to believe in around this situation.
All careers come to an end, and in sports, that comes earlier than in most. But there are WAYS of doing things. The way they appear to have chosen is appallingly bad.
-
I can understand that many things have changed with the professionalism, that he is 35 years old, that the club has other projects, but that his future is "discussed" in 4 minutes after wearing that shirt 347 times, I don't accept it.
I don't care if it's Gustard's fault or who knows who else.
Until December he was certainly not the same MB that we all remembered, in some games he played badly and was criticized even more than he deserved, because too many times we only remember the last game and not what he had given to the team in 15 years.
I have no trouble believing that when he got back in the car and was alone he cried, as I would bet he will do the same thing when he takes off his Harlequins shirt for the last time.
He can wear any other shirt from any club, but in his heart there will always and only be the n. 15 of the Harlequins.For me you will always and only be one of the players who made me fall in love with this team, and I will never forget that.
Your farewell will be another reason to win this championship.
For this I say you HELLO MIKE BROWN see you next time, maybe chatting over a pint.
Because with people like him, at least we all have the right to get pissed off when they walk away.
After applauding him for a long time.
-
It is the manner in which it was done that is the problem. If I had done that in my business life I would not have any staff working with me. It is not the culture of our Club whether it is a business or not. If it has now become the culture then like others on this board I bitterly regret donating or taking credit for my money and it is leaving a very nasty taste in my mouth. You cannot have it both ways.
-
The thing is though the people running the club only have to loyal to the club. Whether we like it or not rugby is a professional sport which makes Harlequins a Business and one that's losing money every year.
This year has been even harder and the club, as well as other clubs, would be making choices they wouldn't normally have to make.
A year or two ago quite a few fans were saying how Brown was not the player he was and with him being the age he is we need to find another full back.
This year he's back to his best and everyone is upset he's leaving and how badly the club have done it. We don't know exactly how the conversation went between the two, only it lasted about 4 minutes. As I said earlier the chat between them could have been 4 hours the result would have been the same and I'm sure Mike would have been just as upset about it.
I'm not trying to stick up for the club, just trying to think about it without adding any personal feelings.
I'm sad he's leaving and wish we could have shown him and Chris Robshaw before, just how we, the fans appreciated them for all they've giving to the club.
He's always been nice when I've spoken to him, as has Eliza his wife. I wish them all the best for their future and hope they end up doing what they wants and where they wants to do it.
Cheers Mike. A club legend!
-
Thanks really a repeat of what he said to Bayfield on BT. Rory Best’s comments immediately afterwards emulated what we all feel but he could be more open and honest as his salary is not paid by Quins.
-
Link to podcast here (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09ctk87)
-
Danny Care’s thoughts on the BBC Rugby podcast, starting at about 42.20.
-
been a supporter of the club for 28 years... <snipped for brevity>
Agree with all of that - very well put.
-
been a supporter of the club for 28 years, I've seen many good players go that I would have wanted to stay, some for sentimental reasons others because they still had something to offer. I recognise its a professional game and unfortunately its a lot more about money, even more so in surviving covid and lack of finance. I don't have a problem if the club say you're 35 and we have to prepare for the next MB and plan for the future, unfortunately it's a fact of all sport that it will happen and as they say all good things come to an end. However there is a way of doing it, someone who has given such amazing service to the club deserves better, there should be a plan in place to give the individual time to plan beyond Quins, time for the fans to celebrate him and say good bye. It's interesting I feel for someone like MB you may even need to bite the bullet and offer that one last contract as a thanks even though maybe not best for the club in player terms but what the fans want to do and if you don't, how much does it cost the club in fan loyalty and revenue. We cant offer coach roles to every ex player, you cant offer contracts to every player who no longer fits and you definitely need to upgrade at times but you do need to treat players with respect and in the case of a career like MB's with thanks for all the times he put his body on the line. I'm gutted to lose him as I think he's still our best 15 and I don't give two hoots about his age if he's playing well, I do take issue with a 4 minute meeting and the way it was done, Mike deserves better from Quins and so do the fans. I've given them last seasons funds left over from my club card and season ticket, I've put this seasons ticket funds towards next season and not asked for my money back, if the club is just going to be about money and give no loyalty to a servant as great as Mike has been, why do I want to show loyalty in helping them and in fact how can they even ask us to do that if they show none to the people who have got them so much. Sad day for Quins, it's more than a business for me and if that's all that it's going to come down to it makes me feel very different to the club I've loved for so long, if decisions made by the club are purely business and financial towards such great servants such as MB then it wont be a second thought for them to do the same when it comes to the fans, makes me wonder why I should help them financially as I have in the year we went down and through covid. Sorry for rambling but very upset about this and ashamed of how MB has been treated.
Thanks Mr_B. This echoes my own thoughts.
-
been a supporter of the club for 28 years, I've seen many good players go that I would have wanted to stay, some for sentimental reasons others because they still had something to offer. I recognise its a professional game and unfortunately its a lot more about money, even more so in surviving covid and lack of finance. I don't have a problem if the club say you're 35 and we have to prepare for the next MB and plan for the future, unfortunately it's a fact of all sport that it will happen and as they say all good things come to an end. However there is a way of doing it, someone who has given such amazing service to the club deserves better, there should be a plan in place to give the individual time to plan beyond Quins, time for the fans to celebrate him and say good bye. It's interesting I feel for someone like MB you may even need to bite the bullet and offer that one last contract as a thanks even though maybe not best for the club in player terms but what the fans want to do and if you don't, how much does it cost the club in fan loyalty and revenue. We cant offer coach roles to every ex player, you cant offer contracts to every player who no longer fits and you definitely need to upgrade at times but you do need to treat players with respect and in the case of a career like MB's with thanks for all the times he put his body on the line. I'm gutted to lose him as I think he's still our best 15 and I don't give two hoots about his age if he's playing well, I do take issue with a 4 minute meeting and the way it was done, Mike deserves better from Quins and so do the fans. I've given them last seasons funds left over from my club card and season ticket, I've put this seasons ticket funds towards next season and not asked for my money back, if the club is just going to be about money and give no loyalty to a servant as great as Mike has been, why do I want to show loyalty in helping them and in fact how can they even ask us to do that if they show none to the people who have got them so much. Sad day for Quins, it's more than a business for me and if that's all that it's going to come down to it makes me feel very different to the club I've loved for so long, if decisions made by the club are purely business and financial towards such great servants such as MB then it wont be a second thought for them to do the same when it comes to the fans, makes me wonder why I should help them financially as I have in the year we went down and through covid. Sorry for rambling but very upset about this and ashamed of how MB has been treated.
-
No problem with him leaving for me we have a young 20 yo who looks top class like his Dad, perhaps he has stipulated he wants to play fb, and if asked to choose between the 2, I think I would take a punt on the younger player. Sport has very few loyal players and Mike is one of the few, but the majority just chase the £. I don't blame them, but from an employers point of view why should they show loyalty when in the majority of cases in all walks of life an employee will do what is best for themselves.
-
There are discrete ways of doing it.
Do you mean 'discrete', or do you mean 'discreet'?
-
I know Mike. Gustard was a total Idiot over this. He didn’t want to leave but was forced out.
I think we all know that as we read the article!
-
It’s also convenient to blame a CEO for something when you a) don’t know the full details and b) are skipping over several other people who were more closely involved. For instance, Billy Millard is the General Manager of the playing department. Gustard reported to him and he has (as I understand it) ultimate control over recruitment, contracts and the playing roster across the Men’s and Women’s senior sides and the Academy.
Should Millard go, as well?
It’s also conveniently ignoring the actions that have been taken since the issue started to blow up. Owen Eastwood was hired to perform a review (which I seem to remember was widely derided on here). Gustard left unceremoniously. The team has started playing far better and they seem much happier.
I think it’s also important to separate the “what” from the “how” here. It’s been reported (though not yet confirmed) that the deal Mike is getting at Newcastle is for two years playing and a transition into coaching. If that’s what he wanted, then it may well be that Quins couldn’t offer him that; we may not have room under the cap or space in the coaching setup for another new coach. And arguably, it may be better for him to cut his teeth coaching people other than the people he played with.
As to the “how”, I don’t think anyone on this board and few in rugby more widely would condone how it was handled, if Mike’s account is remotely accurate. What we don’t know in full was who was involved, and what actions the club has taken over them. Until we do, assigning blame to people based on job title is unhelpful in the extreme.
That's why i didn't assign blame to LD in my original post. I said he should issue a public apology for the way the business was handled. If he wasn't prepared to do that then he should resign.
-
Im not digging anyone out here, so apologies in advance if it may seem that way. Genuine question for those that want a statement from the club...what are you wanting it to say?? Is it more about appeasing the fans?? Would you be happy if it was kept in house between Brown and the club??
There are discrete ways of doing it. An interview with a reliable journalist (e.g. from the Torygraph) who cites "sources close to the club," explains the process and the chronology, what was going on behind the scenes during this time (Gussy etc.) and where mistakes were made. To the extent necessary — and it certainly looks necessary — the club could express its regrets and where it went wrong, but without attribution. Lots of phrases like "We understand that ..."
-
...All the club cares about is woman's rugby and rainbow events...
Piffle
-
I won't feel disrespected. The ins and outs of this are none of my business really. I just hope MB and the club make peace with each other, if they haven't already done so.
I know Mike. Gustard was a total Idiot over this. He didn’t want to leave but was forced out.
-
I won't feel disrespected. The ins and outs of this are none of my business really. I just hope MB and the club make peace with each other, if they haven't already done so.
-
It's already moved beyond that unfortunately. It's out in the open now and it would be disrespectful to the fans to not address it imo
-
I hope the club don't give in to any demands for public apologies or explanations. I hope it's dealt with behind closed doors.
-
Yeah either want an explanation or an apology to him
-
Im not digging anyone out here, so apologies in advance if it may seem that way. Genuine question for those that want a statement from the club...what are you wanting it to say?? Is it more about appeasing the fans?? Would you be happy if it was kept in house between Brown and the club??
I think we just want to know why a true servant and legend of the club has been treated in what seems to most of us here a pretty dreadful manner.
-
So very disappointing and sad. Go well Browny, you take all of our best wishes with you.
-
It's very sad to see Mike leave in this way and I know I'm not the only one who will miss him. He does deserve the best of send offs and just hope there will at least be some fans there to let him know how much he means to us.
What I don't know though is why the club are letting him go so I can't moan at them yet for it.
As for taking only 4 minutes to tell Mike I'm not sure if they took 4 hours it would make him feel happier about it!
-
There is supposed to be a pregame interview with Laurie Dalrymple on the quins Facebook coverage tonight.
-
Im not digging anyone out here, so apologies in advance if it may seem that way. Genuine question for those that want a statement from the club...what are you wanting it to say?? Is it more about appeasing the fans?? Would you be happy if it was kept in house between Brown and the club??
-
I’m not saying those players are equal to Brown, but I’d rather we ran a club with a long term plan, rather than knee jerk reaction. Yes he has played well since PG left, but before that he was looking like he was at the end of his career.
These decisions need to be made nice and early and this one was.
Giving players the chance to look for other deals....
Is this because of behind the scenes issues with PG and his management and once he had left harmony, and form, returned? How much truth was in the rumours of senior players looking for routes out of the club? I suspect reality only started to dawn with the strong rumours about Marcus looking at other options. As others have said a clear statement is required sooner than later from the top (and it should have happened before the furore on this board!
-
Along with many others, I am amazed that Quins have let Mike go, if that man bleeds, he bleeds the quarters, a true club man, alongside Richard Langhorne in that respect.
Whatever the background etc etc to this sad outcome, thanks for everything you have done for us Mike, and hope it works out for you, you deserve it.
-
On replacing Brown, one has to consider the fact that the club may have decided they have the cover. Lynagh has been touted by others. Green seems to have also been recruited for this very scenario. And although Morris looks better on the wing, he has always been a full back first. Add inR Chisholm.
And that is the reality, if you want to keep Brown, you may find you end up being
A) short in other areas...... cap only goes so far
B) accused of not succession planning
The club has to make tough decisions at times.
It’s not the clubs fault, fans can’t go to matches.
I’m not saying those players are equal to Brown, but I’d rather we ran a club with a long term plan, rather than knee jerk reaction. Yes he has played well since PG left, but before that he was looking like he was at the end of his career.
These decisions need to be made nice and early and this one was.
Giving players the chance to look for other deals....
Well to me this is part of the problem. He leaves while clear first choice with no obvious successor in place. Lynagh is a rank newbie playing all his rugby on the wing, Morris is a bad fullback making a good fist of playing wing to a high standard, and Green's barely started his career in this country.
None of that excuses treating Brown like he was on a short trial with Quins. He absolutely 100% deserved to be kept in the loop as soon as the club started seriously considering life after him. It seems clear he'd have accepted a reduced deal if money was the problem.
-
I’m disappointed in the way this seems to have been handled but some of the responses on here are eyebrow raising.
This happened in December. Since then, we’ve been playing some of our best rugby in years. If it had affected team morale that badly, I’m not sure that would have been possible.
So far we’ve heard one side of the story and while I have no reason to disbelieve Mike’s version of events, we don’t know any more than what’s written in the article. I doubt it is quite as simple as how it is being presented.
My overriding feeling is that Gustard did a lot of damage and the club has been working hard to resolve it, but in some cases it’s too little or too late or both.
-
This just sums up Quins - no longer a club, only a business. I feel both sadness and anger at this decision - imho Mikey B is the best ever Quin. All the club cares about is woman's rugby and rainbow events. Struggling to see how I can get emotional about supporting them - guess have to detach the team from the club which is hard!!
Maybe we should boycott all bars apart from the Mike Brown bar to send a clear message that the club needs to recognise it's not bigger than the fans!?
Bring back Deano, keep Mikey B and put Joe Marler in charge of the management.
-
I dont like it, but I dont think he is leaving. News that big would have leaked by now
-
I don’t like Marler’s tweet. I hope the rumour about him leaving isn’t true
-
He shouldn't.
He should take responsibility when a player's departure is handled in such an appalling manner and if he can't then he should be sacked.
It's too easy to put all the blame on the already disliked Gustard and convenient absolve Dalrymple of any.
It’s also convenient to blame a CEO for something when you a) don’t know the full details and b) are skipping over several other people who were more closely involved. For instance, Billy Millard is the General Manager of the playing department. Gustard reported to him and he has (as I understand it) ultimate control over recruitment, contracts and the playing roster across the Men’s and Women’s senior sides and the Academy.
Should Millard go, as well?
It’s also conveniently ignoring the actions that have been taken since the issue started to blow up. Owen Eastwood was hired to perform a review (which I seem to remember was widely derided on here). Gustard left unceremoniously. The team has started playing far better and they seem much happier.
I think it’s also important to separate the “what” from the “how” here. It’s been reported (though not yet confirmed) that the deal Mike is getting at Newcastle is for two years playing and a transition into coaching. If that’s what he wanted, then it may well be that Quins couldn’t offer him that; we may not have room under the cap or space in the coaching setup for another new coach. And arguably, it may be better for him to cut his teeth coaching people other than the people he played with.
As to the “how”, I don’t think anyone on this board and few in rugby more widely would condone how it was handled, if Mike’s account is remotely accurate. What we don’t know in full was who was involved, and what actions the club has taken over them. Until we do, assigning blame to people based on job title is unhelpful in the extreme.
-
While some may b e upset he is going, I cant imagine it has rocked the boat too much, as it happened a while ago.
-
Even after a sleep, I'm still bitterly dissapointed.
I don't have a problem with Brown moving on - he is 35 and although hes had a good few months, we need to plan for the future. I have a big problem with the way the club have conducted themselves.
Brown has worn that 15 shirt at quins for as long as I have been old enough to remember watching rugby, and the image of his sitting crying in his car after the club that we all, and he, loves, ended his future at the Stoop with a four minute chat makes me sick to my stomach.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is part of the reason that Gussie went so quickly.
If a head is to roll, it seems as if it should be Ed Spokes - I imagine that although it may have been approved by the higher ups, it was conducted by him and Gustard. Laurie needs to come out and make a statement regardless, apologising to both the fans and to arguably the greatest Quin of all time.
I do have a problem with Marler getting involved on twitter however, I understand he is standing up for a friend, but calling out a member of staff as being a **** for the world to see isn't a good luck for the club.
Hopefully this doesn't rock the dressing room, and we can give Brown a proper send off at either the Stoop or across the road.
I'm curious to see what both Monye and Care say on the pod on monday / whether they touch on it at all.
I hope this didn't happen to Robbo as well.
Thank you to Brown for his service - the club will be a far worse place without him in it.
-
He shouldn't.
He should take responsibility when a player's departure is handled in such an appalling manner and if he can't then he should be sacked.
It's too easy to put all the blame on the already disliked Gustard and convenient absolve Dalrymple of any.
TBF, we dont know what has happened since though. Unfortunately the damage was done, but we did try and offer him another deal (I think) but he had already signed with Falcons. We know (again I think) that PG delivered the news, that seems to be one of the big issues, and the manner it was done. I said elsewhere, it would not shock me if this was another nail in the PG coffin. Of course I do not know LD, or had dealings with him, but from seeing/hearing him speak, and based on the impression I get of him, it does not seem his style (I could be wrong I know)
-
Not sure a CEO should have to resign or get sack when a player leaves a club.
He shouldn't.
He should take responsibility when a player's departure is handled in such an appalling manner and if he can't then he should be sacked.
It's too easy to put all the blame on the already disliked Gustard and convenient absolve Dalrymple of any.
-
Such a shame to see MB leave especially as (1) he is having a great season and (2) it was handled so badly.
It is (along with the almost instant improvement in form) another demonstration of how dreadful PG was for Quins.
I don't think LD should take any blame as he obviously decided that PG should go and ES (head of recruitment) was not involved in the MB exit.
-
I can handle the decision, its the manner it was delivered. Should people resign etc, no I dont think so, but Brown deserved better.
-
Maybe PG’s departure was linked to this kind of thing? MB was one of the players that did not say anything when he left....Others put out nice posts on social media.....
Maybe LD saw this and said not us as a club....
But ultimately if the club don’t have the money........
No one said anything like this when Lambert left and was not offered a contract extension like Robbo to finish career......
Not sure a CEO should have to resign or get sack when a player leaves a club.
-
The values our club have displayed don't match mine. I have only felt this far from the club once before at our lowest moment. There needs to be a statement from Dalrymple. Gutted, disgusted and despondent - and that's after a night to calm down.
Mike deserves so much better. The person behind this needs to follow him out the door, there needs to be a reaction.
All the best to Mike
-
I think there are two separate aspects to this. The first is Gustard's decision (I assume) that he didn't see Brown as part of his future squad. This I can just about accept even though I strongly disagree with it as it was his decision (again I assume) as to which players he wanted to retain.
The second aspect which I can't forgive is the way the decision was handled. You simply do not treat anyone let alone a player who has given such long and outstanding service this way and the buck stops with the Chief Executive. Laurie Dalrymple should issue an immediate public apology or resign. If he does neither he should be sacked.
In my book this will do more damage to the reputation of the club than bloodgate.
-
Given Brown's departure has been a PR disaster for Quins, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear about new signing(s) shortly. The club will be keen to change the narrative ASAP.
-
Baldwin seems to be joining Worcs for the location (close to home) as much as anything else. I can imagine that there are not many sides that need/could afford Brown. Falcons must have some cap space as they were after Smith before he signed on with us.
-
Absolutely gutted about brown leaving and annoyed about us losing the best hooker we’ve had in years.
To play devils advocate and, I don’t really agree with this, but does it say something they are both leaving us for wuss and falcons? I’ll be intrigued to see how both teams go next year as looking at them this year, especially wuss, I don’t see them winning anything significant. Falcons have done better but I think their budget restricts them from competing right at the top. I think I’d be even more incensed if they went to a sale, Leicester, teams which seems to be up and competing with us.
Will be intriguing to see our recruitment strategy for next season and who we replace them with. In brown we may have options in the clubs with Green/Lynagh. But I don’t think I’ve seen anything to say we have options to replace Baldwin.
-
Unfortunately I think long term this might be the best for the club. By that I mean keeping younger players on the books and also giving other player chances.
If it were not for COVID and salary cap reductions then no doubt he would have been offered a deal, but remember rugby is a business that is a loss making sport. Very tough on MB and sounds like it could of been handled better by PG. even more interesting is how much PG used to big up MB which makes it worse for me.
However the key thing is that the club has to be bigger than any player and interests of it must come first.
Looks to me that the club have been doing succession planning for a while and ultimately JK and COS left the club with lots of players in 30’s and we need to slowly change balance whilst keeping some experience.
I am not sure Robbo would be in our back row now. Unfortunately things move on and so does the team. MB is clearly a club legend and maybe he will do a Simon Shaw - I hope he does well at Falcons.
-
On replacing Brown, one has to consider the fact that the club may have decided they have the cover. Lynagh has been touted by others. Green seems to have also been recruited for this very scenario. And although Morris looks better on the wing, he has always been a full back first. Add inR Chisholm.
And that is the reality, if you want to keep Brown, you may find you end up being
A) short in other areas...... cap only goes so far
B) accused of not succession planning
The club has to make tough decisions at times.
It’s not the clubs fault, fans can’t go to matches.
I’m not saying those players are equal to Brown, but I’d rather we ran a club with a long term plan, rather than knee jerk reaction. Yes he has played well since PG left, but before that he was looking like he was at the end of his career.
These decisions need to be made nice and early and this one was.
Giving players the chance to look for other deals....
I do not like the way it appears to have been done, but I do agree with the sentiment of this post.
-
On replacing Brown, one has to consider the fact that the club may have decided they have the cover. Lynagh has been touted by others. Green seems to have also been recruited for this very scenario. And although Morris looks better on the wing, he has always been a full back first. Add inR Chisholm.
And that is the reality, if you want to keep Brown, you may find you end up being
A) short in other areas...... cap only goes so far
B) accused of not succession planning
The club has to make tough decisions at times.
It’s not the clubs fault, fans can’t go to matches.
I’m not saying those players are equal to Brown, but I’d rather we ran a club with a long term plan, rather than knee jerk reaction. Yes he has played well since PG left, but before that he was looking like he was at the end of his career.
These decisions need to be made nice and early and this one was.
Giving players the chance to look for other deals....
-
Utterly despicable way to behave. I appreciate tough decisions need to be made in sport and business but it's no way to treat a player who's given so much to the club. Huge credit to Mike for the way he's responded on the pitch since December - ever the professional and I hope we can send him away with some silverware. Maybe even be there too! Gutted it seems to have ended like this.
-
From the Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9433571/Danny-Care-reveals-sadness-departure-Harlequins-teammate-Mike-Brown.html)
Mike Brown was one of the main reasons I joined Harlequins all those years ago.
We played together for England at the Under 21 World Cup in France and that was where it all started. We’ve grown up together.
There have been plenty of ups and downs along the way, but it’s been amazing and it’s going to be a sad day for me when he signs out from Harlequins. I will miss him.
I’ve never met a more professional rugby player. For me, he’s the ultimate example for any young lad coming through.
Browny’s 100% committed to getting the best out of himself.
He’s made a huge amount of sacrifice and personal investment, even paying for his own training on his days off. He looks after himself so well that he could play until he’s 40, if he wanted to.
Throughout his career, he’s loved to prove his critics wrong. He’s still doing it now. For me, Browny’s still one of the best full-backs in the game and there’s not many more reliable in world rugby.
He’s an unbelievable player and an unbelievable dad. Every time he’s pulled on a Quins shirt, he’s done his family and the club proud.
-
My feeling is the board didn’t want to keep brown because of the money. With the way it’s been worded I’ll be surprised if we bring in a class replacement rather than a days filler type we usually do. Infact I’ll be surprised if we bring anyone in!
-
Disgusting way to treat someone who has given so much to an organisation, I am sure Mike could have given a year or twos more service to Quins, BUT I am also absolutely certain that there are a multitude of good 'normal' people who have given everything they can and have been treated in a similar way by their organisation i.e. Ultimately your an employee and basically a number so when your time is up thank you and good bye.
A sad fact of life but it happens all too regularly and especially right now, so you have to look after number one from the start as Mike eludes to in his interview.
-
The set up at Quins has been toxic since before Gustard. David Ellis was a moron who lived in cloud cuckoo land and prioritised everything other than whats on the field (Aka all the love in with having gigs in the summer, which is no bad thing, but it seemed all the efforts went on the brand Quins than the team, and boy did that show).
To lose two club legends in CR and MB ending their careers elsewhere is very sad indeed. Maybe some was out of our control, (Probably Chris) but I feel Brown probably could of ended things here. Baldwin going is another one, and no disrespect to the warriors or falcons but I'm confident we are a better prospect then either of them.
I think it’s even more sad given the lack of fans in the stadium for both of them. Yes, Warriors and Falcons isn’t the same as heading to San Diego or a year down in Toulon or something. No disrespect intended to either of the former clubs!
-
The biggest takeaway is don't name bars after players until after they've retired.
-
I'm glad the Admin comes down hard on swearing on this board otherwise this would be a string of four letter words directed at the club.
I'm somewhere between numb and raging. I feel betrayed by my club, I had this vision of them as behaving better to one of the legends who made them what they are. Certainly I feel tricked by the club, I've left money invested in their stupid card system I wish I'd just withdrawn completely. The rumours of Mike Brown leaving had no mention that it was all at the club's behest and not his. I'm not sure I'll ever look at the club in the same light again.
Yes, I know Mike is 35, yes I know all old warriors eventually have to fall on their sword, but have you seen how he's been playing this season? And that's while carrying this rejection inside of him. The fact he's still seeing Margot Wells, still paying out his own pocket to try and be the best he can be, it shows the measure of the man. And while Mike and Deano have a connection, can you really believe Deano would sign him at his asking price if he didn't think he had a couple of good seasons still in him.
I cannot believe the club have treated him in this way. I can't believe the way they have let this news come out. Shame on them all.
I'm sorry my name is on that bloody loyalty wall now. (sorry Admin)
-
If his performance had dropped to the level that he was struggling to get a starting position, I'd have less of an issue with this but none of our other FBs come close to playing as well him.
Same with Baldwin to a degree, way ahead of the others in his position.
-
Well I’ve had a night to cool down and, in the cold light of day...I’m still fuming. What a farce. I wasn’t fussed about losing Sincks or Ibitoye but the way it was handled both felt odd. All that Comms rubbish with Goneva arriving and making Gabs loom stupid never say well with me. Then Robshaw goes when we are clearly short in the back row - didn’t we name a bar after him? Then the whole Ashton nonsense. Then Gustard fallout and players signing the moment he’s gone. Then we find Baldwin wanted to go but tried to stay once Gustard had gone. Now similar with Brown - didn’t we name a bar after him? Plus various comments from Marler, Long and ‘sources’ that behind the scenes has been a mess for months. Makes our current form even more remarkable but Quins Board is overseeing a complete shambles.
-
The set up at Quins has been toxic since before Gustard. David Ellis was a moron who lived in cloud cuckoo land and prioritised everything other than whats on the field (Aka all the love in with having gigs in the summer, which is no bad thing, but it seemed all the efforts went on the brand Quins than the team, and boy did that show).
To lose two club legends in CR and MB ending their careers elsewhere is very sad indeed. Maybe some was out of our control, (Probably Chris) but I feel Brown probably could of ended things here. Baldwin going is another one, and no disrespect to the warriors or falcons but I'm confident we are a better prospect then either of them.
-
What complete moron has made this decision. Have they never seen Quins play without Brown at full back, it’s a car crash.
Playing some of the best rugby of his career, no longer required by England so available all the time and can be managed to play another two seasons very well.
An absolute disaster in my opinion and no class shown by the club at all. I thought Saracens were a classless club but turns out they had it right all along and treated players with respect.
This all could have been handled in a more fitting and better way but Salarycens never had to make hard decisions about players leaving as they just ignored the cap.
-
I knew there’d been too much in the way of positive vibes around the place recently and what was needed was what sounds like an all round mess up. Just looks really poor all round and even worse when it concerns such a superb, long serving club legend.
I get when players are getting towards the end of their careers that tough and non sentimental decisions need to be made. This season more than any. Maybe the club has been guilty on occasion of making some decisions with a bit too much sentimentality in the past. But this just sounds terribly handled from start to finish.
I’m not normally one to demand that the club make statements but I think one from Laurie Dalrymple would be welcome to clarify some of this.
-
I get that, and I am only guessing of course, but I would guess PG would have had a big say in him going, but after PG had left it would have been too late as the cap space would have been allocated elsewhere.
I do completely agree and for the good things PG did he’s also left a legacy of destruction. I think Sinks may have stayed if not for him I seem to remember loyalty being brought up by him too.
-
Yes, I agree. Very weird considering it’s not that long since we opened the Mike Brown bar.
We’re seeing quite a few indications that Gustard’s people management was very poor, but I don’t think we can absolve the rest of the leadership at the club of responsibility here.
Even if the decision had been the same, it could have been handled very differently.
-
Appalling way to deal with an established club legend who was playing well. Gustard is toxic. I'm even happier he's gone now!
-
First and foremost, best wishes to Mike Brown. Absolute warrior and club legend. It'll be strange seeing him in a Falcons shirt!
Professional sport is uncompromising however, Mike's interview shows a complete lack of empathy from the club which is pretty shocking. Good on Mike for shining a spotlight on this.
Strategically the club had clearly made the decision that a 'new team' had to be created and moving on our older established stars was part of this renewal. I've no issue with that as a strategy, but the human element appears to have been overlooked which is deeply disappointing.
-
Gutted, disappointed and bemused.
I honestly don't know what to say about that article, all I can say is thank you Mr Brown for some fantastic memories, all your hard work and loyalty to the club over the years, I was at your first games for Quins and Im hoping that I can be at the premiership final to see your last in the quarters.
-
A true club legend and it was always going to be very tough to see him go. It’s a particular shame that it has happened this way and I hope that, just as things were looking up, this doesn’t damage morale. Judging from Marler’s tweet that seems wishful thinking.
-
A lousy decision handled badly.We won’t get a 15 as good as him for sure.And it’s reasonable to assume Robshaw was pushed as well.
Was this purely a financial decision and to hell with the rugby?
As others have said a truthful statement from LD required.All the good feelings of the last few weeks shattered
-
What complete moron has made this decision. Have they never seen Quins play without Brown at full back, it’s a car crash.
Playing some of the best rugby of his career, no longer required by England so available all the time and can be managed to play another two seasons very well.
An absolute disaster in my opinion and no class shown by the club at all. I thought Saracens were a classless club but turns out they had it right all along and treated players with respect.
-
It’s easy to blame PG and I’m sure he’d have had a part in it but he was the messenger, I’m still glad he’s gone. Browny asked again after he’d left and was told no! So it’s bigger than just PG. It may be a very necessary decision but the delivery of the news and treatment of a player should be better.
It doesn’t matter who we sign there’ll still be a huge gap.
I hope with the money freed up with the two Bs leaving along with Lang and Young we get some positive news soon.
I get that, and I am only guessing of course, but I would guess PG would have had a big say in him going, but after PG had left it would have been too late as the cap space would have been allocated elsewhere.
-
It’s easy to blame PG and I’m sure he’d have had a part in it but he was the messenger, I’m still glad he’s gone. Browny asked again after he’d left and was told no! So it’s bigger than just PG. It may be a very necessary decision but the delivery of the news and treatment of a player should be better.
It doesn’t matter who we sign there’ll still be a huge gap.
I hope with the money freed up with the two Bs leaving along with Lang and Young we get some positive news soon.
-
Im wondering....According to the article, PG let Brown go. When PG left, Brown asked if things had changed and he could stay, club said no.......maybe because we already had another signings (s) lined up that meant we could not afford him anymore even if we wanted to.
-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9433037/Harlequins-Mike-Brown-opens-pain-brutally-axed-lifelong-club.html
-
Well Browny has had his say at last. Sport can be vicious.
I'm sure he will live returning to the Stoop next season. F Ju ngers crossed we get to see him at some point in the future. I get the feeling he will be a very good coach. He will certainly do everything he can to build his new career.
Best of luck and let's now look to the future. Green, Lynagh are the future. Looking forward to seeing them develop.
-
Rumours on the falcons message board have been going on for a few weeks about Mike signing with a possible future role in coaching ,after a distinguished career at Quins & England ,which will in turn bring them a huge amount of experience. I wish along with others nothing but the best for Mike but the article in the Mail is a PR disaster for Quins
-
Bittersweet moment. He has been one our all-time greats and my favourite Quin so don’t want him to leave but cannot begrudge him anything that is the best choice for his future.
Well now I am just depressed about the whole affair.
-
Pretty filthy stuff. A true legend of the club, he should have got the chance to sign off as a one club man if that was what he wanted. To be shown the door in such a fashion is unacceptable.
-
Twitter exchange between Marler and Brown.
https://twitter.com/joemarler/status/1378401364527755265?s=21
Ed Stokes is the head of recruitment so wonder if this hashtag is in reference to him. Also interesting that Andrew Sanger, head of player welfare at Quins, has commented #bekind Joe.
-
Sorry, meant to add, was it Gussy's plan or was he operating under instruction from the board?
In any case, it feels unnecessarily cutthroat.
I am minded to think of how Ryan Giggs was celebrated by Man U in his last year or so. Browny should have been treated the same way for us. Let us hope we win a cup to give him a worthy send off.
-
Pretty disgusting treatment really. Getting a sense of how toxic the place was becoming under gustard. No-one is bigger than the club, but if they treat players like Mike Brown like that then why would any junior player have any loyalty? Can't expect a player like sinckler to be loyal when when treat people like this.
Obviously decisions have to made in terms of salary cap, bringing through the next generation, but there's a way to do it properly
So glad gustard is gone
-
Shocking!
So was Gustard finally shown the door when penny dropped we were on the point of losing many more key players. DC and Marcus have since signed extensions perhaps Robshaw also told by Gustard he had no future. This is really poor.
-
And with that any lingering sympathy for Gustard is incinerated in an instant. What a bitterly destructive and malign influence he ended up being.
This is starting to be my thinking too. Maybe Robshaw was told the same but is too diplomatic to reveal it. Time may tell.
It is interesting to think whether this was Gussy's plan to reduce the wage bill, to lower the age or to win a power struggle. Probably a combination.
-
Very upsetting to hear the club treated Mike is this way.
I started supporting Quins about 6/7 years ago mainly because he was my fave player.
To hear a Quins legend was treated this way even knowing how cut throat professional sport can be is still very hard to hear.
-
And with that any lingering sympathy for Gustard is incinerated in an instant. What a bitterly destructive and malign influence he ended up being.
-
Given the circumstances - that he knew he was on his way out - you have to commend Mike for his brilliant performances this year. It makes me realise just how determined he is to succeed for himself, his team mates, the fans and the club he loves.
His being rested for the game at Falcons now makes complete sense (although we all suspected). Will he have to sit out of the return fixture?! It will be our last game at home in the league! There is no way that can be allowed to happen. Especially as some fans should be allowed in then.
-
I feel we are owed an explanation from the powers that be here. If the scenario played out as the Mail reports it, it is plainly unacceptable.
-
Wow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9433037/Harlequins-Mike-Brown-opens-pain-brutally-axed-lifelong-club.html
At this point, it might not have been better to take Dean Richards to the Harlequins and keep MB .....
-
Didn’t think I’d ever feel more let down by the club than Bloodgate but here we are. A meeting that doesn’t even last 1 second per appearance.
-
Not commented on the board for a long time as I now live a long way away from the Stoop. This is appalling behaviour by the club.
-
I find this situation really poor from Quins. I cannot believe the guy has been treated with that level of respect. Very disappointed.
-
This is a really sad end and doesn't put the club in a great light. I get that business and pragmatic decision-making need to lead in certain situations but this feels cruel. Especially to a one-club man who is/was playing so well.
-
Had to happen one day I suppose. So does that mean that our next Fullback will be called Blue, after Green, or do we need a red first?
We do have a Gray! :P
-
No wonder Club pushed through whole of refunds/credits earlier than expected. aAssuming this is true what a way to treat a player. It maybe Gussies way but it is not Quins way. Laurie Dalrymple statement required.
-
The final impacts of Gustard’s reign is being. We are losing a huge amount of experience and quality with brown and Baldwin moving on. I’m devastated the club has let our biggest legend down like this.
-
Brown could have made his announcement through a polished club press release but he wants to do it on his own terms. Some people struggle with Brown’s blunt and honest assessments. Some of his employers will be reading this looking through their fingers.
He wants to acknowledge the good times, the fans, the coaches and the team-mates who have become his extended family. But he also wants to set the record straight.
‘I wanted to stay at Quins,’ says Brown, with emphasis, before he moves on to anything else. ‘I was completely open with the club. I always wanted to stay and I wanted to finish my career at Quins. I love this club. I will always love this club, irrespective of how things have ended.’
In a few months, Brown and his young family will move 300 miles north to Newcastle. His wife, Eliza, has already signed up with the north-east estate agents and former Quins No 8 Nick Easter, who is now defence coach at Newcastle, has also offered a helping hand to find the best areas to rent.
‘At this stage of my career and life, it makes no sense to move but I was left with no other option,’ says Brown. ‘I chased the club for weeks about a new contract and, when they finally brought me in for a meeting, it lasted four minutes.
Paul Gustard told me I had no future here and I was staring down the barrel of unemployment. I’m 35, with a family to support and I’ve been with Harlequins since I was 18. There was no, “Thanks for your efforts, we’ll help you with your future”.
‘It was one of the worst feelings of my life. I couldn’t get my head around it. It wasn’t like my legs have gone and I can’t get in the team any more. Earlier that week, Gussy had done an interview on the Rugby Pass website saying he wanted to reduce the age of the team. A few days later, I was gone. I never thought it would end that way.’
-
https://www.newcastlefalcons.co.uk/news/story/Newcastle-Brown-Full-back-Mike-is-heading-north?fbclid=IwAR1fVv7ps53J6nboK1iEdiRmDBoNGK-fEeV_btT0zuyywoSWrSebs_TRjrI
-
Wow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9433037/Harlequins-Mike-Brown-opens-pain-brutally-axed-lifelong-club.html
-
That sounds ummm, bad...
Could obviously be typical hype for an ultimately dull interview.
He doesn't strike be as the type to vent about the club. I get the impression he genuinely loves the club, but maybe not gustard
-
I still think we will bring someone in who can play there. One thing is for sure, with Brown, Baldwin, Young, Lang and Ashton gone (plus I expect a couple more) we have certainly freed up some cash.
But the salary cap is reducing considerably.
-
That sounds ummm, bad...
-
Apparently daily mail interview at 10pm today explaining why he is "reluctantly" leaving
-
I was hoping this news never came, MB was one of the players I admired the most, but if he sees that his future is better in Newcastle I can only wish him the best for him and his family, even if a small piece of the Harlequins it goes away forever.
-
I'm pretty sure the players would have known for a while ......esp considering everyone else has!!!!
-
Ed Spokes is head of recruitment - may well be him
-
Marler situ is a very bad look. Is there someone in the club with the initials E S?
I'm assuming that IAB = is a ****
-
Bittersweet moment. He has been one our all-time greats and my favourite Quin so don’t want him to leave but cannot begrudge him anything that is the best choice for his future.
-
Marler spoken his mind and he is not happy about brown and Baldwin leaving... ‘ESIAB’ hashtag is confusing, who/what is ES
https://twitter.com/joemarler/status/1378415259946483712?s=21
-
That's a great shame. One of my all time favourite Quins. He's matured and calmed down slightly over the years, no longer deserving of the ASBO label of old.
-
Had to happen one day I suppose. So does that mean that our next Fullback will be called Blue, after Green, or do we need a red first?
We had a Reddish for twenty minutes or so, but not at full back...
-
Interesting - it would appear that they are looking at an internal replacement...
Green? It follows the pattern of a colour playing at FB...
I still think we will bring someone in who can play there. One thing is for sure, with Brown, Baldwin, Young, Lang and Ashton gone (plus I expect a couple more) we have certainly freed up some cash.
-
Had to happen one day I suppose. So does that mean that our next Fullback will be called Blue, after Green, or do we need a red first?
-
Well then. Damn.
-
Well pleased he is going to Falcons and Deano rather than anywhere else. Announcement tonight I think.sad but wish him luck in the future
-
“There will be big shoes to fill next season, but we are looking forward to seeing how the talent we have in our outside backs step up to the challenge. It’s an exciting time to be with Harlequins and we hope we can finish the season on a high to give Mike a fitting send-off.”
Interesting - it would appear that they are looking at an internal replacement...
Green? It follows the pattern of a colour playing at FB...
-
It’s official
https://www.quins.co.uk/news/mike-brown-to-leave-harlequins-at-seasons-end?fbclid=IwAR2XMSHrVw4KbQu51DiWec8umyt2mLoeHqO0gd1vb31YhGtITyAMugGxBK8