ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: claphamquin on Saturday 30-Mar-2024, 20:51*
-
Oh you poor Northern chaps. Just use one of your solid gold cigarette cases, surely?
And they say Quins are the champagne Charlies of rugby. 🙄
-
Oooh no. They’d get squished by the second row’s head in a scrum
Oh you poor Northern chaps. Just use one of your solid gold cigarette cases, surely?
-
Generally, I think that it is best if the captain is a player who plays the full 80 minutes. Often, the importance of the captain comes into focus during the last 15 minutes of the game.
For this reason, I am generally not in favour of the captain coming from front row or the half backs as these are commonly subbed at around 60 minutes.
-
I see Oscar Beard as a future captain. Whilst I'm generally a fan of forwards as captain, there is something about Oscar that is very, 'never give up' which is inspiring. Plus, Carling didn't do too badly as a young captain in the centres.
I agree with an earlier comment that Robshaw and Vos have been the best captains of the recent past.
-
Had to carry those to give the skipper a puff to ensure selection....
What happened to the butts afterwards?
-
Hip flask in one pocket, fags in the other....
Oooh no. They’d get squished by the second row’s head in a scrum
-
Had to carry those to give the skipper a puff to ensure selection....
-
Hip flask in one pocket, fags in the other....
I didn't think you were allowed to say "fags"...
-
It was useful having shorts with pockets though.
Hip flask in one pocket, fags in the other....
-
I would also go for Dommers.
I think Baxter is a very good player and has real leadership potential. I would be happy with him having a role in the leadership group, as the team evolves. I would be happy with Baxter to be skipper one day but, yes, Dommers should get the gig permanently next season.
-
You can well see Baxter being first choice in his position next season. Some would argue that he should be first choice for the remainder of this season. He is certainly dynamic around the pitch as well as an excellent scrummager.
I think he has leadership experience, as he was captain of the England U20s (I am pretty sure). He loves and understands the club too. Happy with him getting the role!
I really rate Baxter and I think he has the potential to be a future captain. I’d prefer he cements his place in the side and keeps developing before he’s seriously in the conversation to be captain. There are other examples of young captains like Daf Jenkins, I’m just not convinced it’s the way to go (at least not this soon).
Dombrandt gets my vote.
-
Some really good insights in here. What’s apparent is that this needs to be thought about as a group, rather than individuals to rally around, especially in the modern game as players rotate out.
I think what we are hitting collectively here is that there’s perceived gaps in this group or that it’s in transition after being fairly set for a while. I like Dombrandt as captain and think he will get better, but the support around him as some of the senior players move on (marler, DC, lewies, and to a lesser extent launch and collier) is a legitimate question which I am sure the coaches are aware of.
Who is in this future group? Baxter, Dombrandt, Marcus, WEv, and even the likes of Cadan probably are those best positioned to step up. You could add players like Dino Lamb to this mix as well. Ultimately from a fans perspective this is all largely perception and only the guys in the room will know the best candidates for this group and whether they have them inside the building or not.
-
But those old leather balls were so heavy.
The rugby balls, that is ... 😉
It was useful having shorts with pockets though.
-
Well, in my day, (puts pipe down and tells dog to fetch slippers...), there was a Captain, a Pack Leader and a Head Girl. Nothing much has changed.
But those old leather balls were so heavy.
The rugby balls, that is ... 😉
-
Absolutely, Deadly. Don't mess with a classic.
-
Well, in my day, (puts pipe down and tells dog to fetch slippers...), there was a Captain, a Pack Leader and a Head Girl. Nothing much has changed.
-
Must admit that the club has timed it pretty well with Baxter. He seems to be ready to take the mantle just at the point where Marler’s tipping towards being slightly past his best, and there’s every sign that he could be just as capable in the role while also being less likely to do something problematic on the pitch.
Unlikely to be as much fun in interviews, though.
-
A lot of good, and thought-provoking, comments above.
Dommers, yeah, I wonder how much the England in and out isn't helping him in this role. If he was a no for England, then I think he has a different approach and would be a good, consistent choice.
wEV, sadly won't be wearing the rose so could step up and take the mantle. Only consideration being that he is the one that get's pinged when the ref decides he doesn't like the breakdown but if he's the captain, does allow him to have the dialogue and may well change the ref's mind.
What I like about Baxter in this regard is his personality and dry sense of humour. He won't be as big a wind up as Joe and will paint better pictures. I think he's already highly thought of in the squad so could be a good captain in about 2-3 years once he's got the scars.
I think the multiple leaders is sometimes unhelpful, too many voices and you would still have that one leader. The aforementioned Farrell, as an example, I can't see anyone else in the 'leadership group' telling him he's wrong. Be a leader by doing your job well and be that example.
You can well see Baxter being first choice in his position next season. Some would argue that he should be first choice for the remainder of this season. He is certainly dynamic around the pitch as well as an excellent scrummager.
I think he has leadership experience, as he was captain of the England U20s (I am pretty sure). He loves and understands the club too. Happy with him getting the role!
-
A lot of good, and thought-provoking, comments above.
Dommers, yeah, I wonder how much the England in and out isn't helping him in this role. If he was a no for England, then I think he has a different approach and would be a good, consistent choice.
wEV, sadly won't be wearing the rose so could step up and take the mantle. Only consideration being that he is the one that get's pinged when the ref decides he doesn't like the breakdown but if he's the captain, does allow him to have the dialogue and may well change the ref's mind.
What I like about Baxter in this regard is his personality and dry sense of humour. He won't be as big a wind up as Joe and will paint better pictures. I think he's already highly thought of in the squad so could be a good captain in about 2-3 years once he's got the scars.
I think the multiple leaders is sometimes unhelpful, too many voices and you would still have that one leader. The aforementioned Farrell, as an example, I can't see anyone else in the 'leadership group' telling him he's wrong. Be a leader by doing your job well and be that example.
-
I think Dommers still could, but he probably needs a bit of a rocket for various reasons. He's an absolute enigma, sometimes he's unbeatable, best player on the pitch by miles, sometimes his physicality and effort falls off a cliff for no discernable reason. Often from minute to minute during a game.
-
That was Marler during the 6n too. Still a good scrummager, if not as good as he used to be, but offering less around the field. It's just an age thing I reckon.
Agreed on Baxter as a future captain. He's clearly a bright lad and already a "follow me" kind of player. I'm disappointed Dombrandt hasn't turned into the captain I thought he would be but he would make a good VC.
-
He's a possibility, but I've not really seen him taking a leadership role on the pitch - he comes across as more of a get on and do it kind of guy. Not to say he couldn't step up, but we've not seen that from him yet.
Having finally got round to watching the Bath game, I wonder if Baxter is a potential future captain. Huge energy on the pitch and (I'm a little surprised to say) in that game Marler didn't add anything when he came on.
-
There’s a book called The Captain Class, which studied teams that had a long run of successful performance and found that the one thing they had in common was a captain who wasn’t necessarily the best player on the team, but was the hardest working and the one who the rest of the team knew would go into battle for them, whether with the opposition, the ref, or occasionally taking a penalty for the team.
Robshaw fit that mould almost perfectly - though you wouldn’t have seen him putting in a cheap shot. The current squad doesn’t really have anyone in that mould, at least not who is playing regularly. You could see Steph or Chis or even Lawday in that role; but none of them are regular starters at their current state of fitness.
Would disagree with the idea the team doesn't have that person. Will Evans sure exemplifies doing the hard graft, under-the-radar stuff and goes about business. Gives 8/10 every single week. I don't know what he's like off the field of course but if you're going to pick Robshaw v2 then WEv would seem the obvious choice.
-
There’s a book called The Captain Class, which studied teams that had a long run of successful performance and found that the one thing they had in common was a captain who wasn’t necessarily the best player on the team, but was the hardest working and the one who the rest of the team knew would go into battle for them, whether with the opposition, the ref, or occasionally taking a penalty for the team.
Robshaw fit that mould almost perfectly - though you wouldn’t have seen him putting in a cheap shot. The current squad doesn’t really have anyone in that mould, at least not who is playing regularly. You could see Steph or Chis or even Lawday in that role; but none of them are regular starters at their current state of fitness.
Incidentally, the book was written by Americans, so it waxes lyrical about basketball players and ice hockey players and deigns to consider the occasional soccer player while glossing over the single best example of what they’re talking about in a single paragraph.
If you’re going to write a book about captains who have presided over an extended period of dominance in a team sport, you’d think that you’d do your research well enough to spend some time on Richie McCaw, wouldn’t you?
-
Leftfield suggestion but does the captain have to be the one reading the riot act?
If you have a player who is a guaranteed starter and gets on well with refs, make that person captain. They can do all the official stuff.
Somebody else can do the bollockings within the team.
My understanding is that this is to some extent the model Warburton used with AWJ for Wales and then POC with the Lions.
No it doesn't and you make a valuable point in that the best sides have multiple leaders. There isn't an over-reliance on a single individual.
-
Possibly. But I'm not sure it really works like that with quins for whatever reason. How many times have we seen a couple of top personnel missing and the rest look like lost puppies as a result?
Robshaw just seemed to the manner born as soon as he broke through, to the extent that I think he was debut 2008, player of the season 2009, captain 2010, off the back of bloodgate. A year letter a letter of apology to the fans for a woeful performance, before turning everything around? My memory is hazy at the best of times so may be chronologically nonsense. But either way.
Then England captain in his 2nd test?
Absolute Brierley character. That what quins players need.
-
Leftfield suggestion but does the captain have to be the one reading the riot act?
If you have a player who is a guaranteed starter and gets on well with refs, make that person captain. They can do all the official stuff.
Somebody else can do the bollockings within the team.
My understanding is that this is to some extent the model Warburton used with AWJ for Wales and then POC with the Lions.
-
An interesting thread. I've a slightly different, more upbeat take:
1. It's focusing on the negative rather than the positive. The core of the team remains from the 2021/22 winning season. There are plenty of examples of us wrestling back momentum. This thread is focusing on a sample size of the last two games...
2. Lots of teams have taken a shellacking or two this season, particularly away from home. Sarries on Friday night... Exeter today...
I don't think this is a uniquely Quins problem, and I'd argue that we're one of the top teams of putting points on the board when momentum is with us (along with Saints and Sarries).
I get the calls for a totemic leader who, after conceding a try or two, gathers the troops under the sticks and reads the riots act, but realistically who is that? I think that's an oversimplification and I'd point to point 2 above which would suggest no other team has got said leader either.
I enjoy our attacking intent and the Quins DNA, but what I would like to see is a noticeably different template when we play away from home against the best sides. We saw it away to Sale last season, with solid defence and Marcus kicking to turn.
-
Have to question what was going on in Smudgers mind when he kicked to touch with seconds on the clock
Indeed. And the commentary team saying it was a really good idea because bath had to go the length...
-
Have to question what was going on in Smudgers mind when he kicked to touch with seconds on the clock
-
Quins don't seem to have that player at the minute with the character to put a rocket up everyone behind the posts having just conceded a soft try or two. Launchbury, Dommers, Lewies all seem a bit too passive. The person who probably gets the most animated when Quins are in that position is Marcus. I do think if he wants to fend off Fin Smith he needs to demonstrate that he can combine the wonderful stuff we saw in the first half with an ability to help the team wrestle back control and re-gain composure in difficult periods. Maybe making him captain could help him develop this area for both club and country and perhaps help to stave off the risk of a move to France at the same time?
In recent seasons it seems to have been Marler who bucks u the team.
-
Not much Marcus can do if Danny kicks it down Russell’s throat in midfield several times over.
-
I'm not sure Borthwick is silly enough to think that Smith is responsible for the performance of his entire team, but you never know.
It also ignores the numerous England games where Farrell, despite his much vaunted leadership skills, has failed to change the course of games for England, either as 10 or captain, and has got on the wrong side of the ref. Care and green gave bath the ball for two of their 50:22 kicks. Lynagh and Herbst were solely to blame for their cards. Not sure Smith can be apportioned much blame for those 4 costly errors
-
I'm not sure Borthwick is silly enough to think that Smith is responsible for the performance of his entire team, but you never know.
-
I did say this in the original post that every team can switch off for 5-10 mins and concede a couple of tries. However the Quins element is then an inability to wrestle back momentum or steady the ship which has happened at least 4 times this season already.
I do think this is part of the reason Borthwick selects Farrell over Smith. As great as Marcus is, he doesn’t have the same ability to manage a game which is what the likes of Farrell, Pollard etc can do (appreciate I’m setting a high bar here but Marcus is good enough to be judged against these type of players).
-
All it takes is a couple of wrong calls from the officials to change momentum. Yesterday, for example, I think it was Tyrone hacked the ball up field but it came off the leg of a Bath player which obviously wasn’t seen and Bath get the line out so we lose our advance up the pitch. Then the try that wasn’t; was? . Those things shouldn’t affect the players that much as you see it happen all the time. It does though and not just to us. I think it’s more likely that the intense efforts it takes to dominate the opposition and get that far ahead takes its toll. Then it doesn’t help when you’re tiring and things appear to be going against you. And if you had the replacements that Bath had and a nothing to lose attitude it starts a sense of doubt creeping in. Look how many times we did that to other teams in the past, especially our prem winning season. It’s not unique to Quins, it happens to all teams all the time some of which have very strong leaders.
Like Saints shipping two trys to Saracens in the last two minutes of the game Friday night.
-
All it takes is a couple of wrong calls from the officials to change momentum. Yesterday, for example, I think it was Tyrone hacked the ball up field but it came off the leg of a Bath player which obviously wasn’t seen and Bath get the line out so we lose our advance up the pitch. Then the try that wasn’t; was? . Those things shouldn’t affect the players that much as you see it happen all the time. It does though and not just to us. I think it’s more likely that the intense efforts it takes to dominate the opposition and get that far ahead takes its toll. Then it doesn’t help when you’re tiring and things appear to be going against you. And if you had the replacements that Bath had and a nothing to lose attitude it starts a sense of doubt creeping in. Look how many times we did that to other teams in the past, especially our prem winning season. It’s not unique to Quins, it happens to all teams all the time some of which have very strong leaders.
-
Quins don't seem to have that player at the minute with the character to put a rocket up everyone behind the posts having just conceded a soft try or two. Launchbury, Dommers, Lewies all seem a bit too passive. The person who probably gets the most animated when Quins are in that position is Marcus. I do think if he wants to fend off Fin Smith he needs to demonstrate that he can combine the wonderful stuff we saw in the first half with an ability to help the team wrestle back control and re-gain composure in difficult periods. Maybe making him captain could help him develop this area for both club and country and perhaps help to stave off the risk of a move to France at the same time?
-
Keeping in with blindside flankers…CCS as an outside bet?
-
There’s plenty of experience and leadership in that squad just at times like the last couple of weeks it really doesn’t look like it. I’d like to think a long term club captain emerges from the current crop of younger guys but this remains to be seen. My impression is that Dommers isn’t overall assertive enough with refs but generally has the respect of the team. Steph seems to have both but is never fit for any period and probably doesn’t get in our first choice team these days.
-
It's the Quins problem. I've lost count of the number if have I've watched where we've had a dozy 20 minutes (30 today) after half time and it the other team back in, or in a refreshing change decided not to pay for the first 20 and give the oppo a 22 point head start...
That was during Robshaw, Vos and subsequent eras... Maybe it's a cultural thing 🤷♂️
5 points from today, but we let them nab 2 by taking our foot off the gas. It ain't over ...
-
They are still young but confidence and game time get them there
-
Yes baxter and Hammond I was thinking too, although Hammond can blow very hot and cold. Baxter maybe not involved enough from prop? But for me Riley is one of 4nwho could be starting hooker any week at the moment.
-
I think the future captain needs to come from inside the club and preferable from one of the younger players but don’t think this will happen until some of the old guard have retired. When Lewies was asked to be captain he phoned round Marler, Care etc to find out their thoughts on him becoming captain before accepting the post. My candidates would include Baxter, Hammond, Riley who are looking like long term players for Quins and who are listened to on the pitch.
-
Wev maybe? Seems to be the one player who is guaranteed his place and you think probably has the respect of his teammates? And you can always rely on not to go missing?
-
I certainly think we are in a period of having our weakest captains. To me Robshaw and Vos were the best I’ve seen in recent times and no one since really has come close.
-
Wasnt Launchberry captain at Wasps? Maybe hes just keeping his head down after being injured for so long?
-
I’ve thought this for some time but think we’re way too open to swings in momentum.
Today was a classic example of a lack of leadership. Yes everyone can concede a couple of tries when 40 pts up but then a leader grabs the team and says enough is enough. Same last week, same vs Sarries at home.
I just don’t think Lewies is a captain, nor is Marcus or Dom. I hoped Launchbury would provide this but he isn’t.
For me I’d spend the money next year on a leader who will fight when the going gets tough and provide some backbone to the team