ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: honkytonk on Sunday 18-Nov-2018, 07:50*
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If Martin Landajo is a target for us , good opportunity to have a look at him this afternoon , he starts for the Pumas against Baa Baas .. KO 2.30 on BBC 2 .
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Being from down this neck of the woods, I’d like either Sam or Luke. Got to know them when they played for Albion
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Would we need him if we are getting LCD?
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Agents obviously put Prem clubs in the mix to up the ante. Sam could have been a good signing.
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Pirates have announced that Sam has signed a two year deal
I wonder if it's a two year deal subject to any interest from a premiership club? He certainly seemed very keen, when interviewed on the Rugby Pod, to move up to the next level if the opportunity arose.
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Pirates have announced that Sam has signed a two year deal
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why would wigglesworth be retiring, he is 2/3 choice scrum half a year out from the world cup, so imagine he will go at least another year and I cant see 2 England SH wanting to fight it out at the same club
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Danny Care will be 32 in January. Probably a good thing to let him go. I bet he's on big wages at Quins.
::)
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I don’t know, he’s still a great player and has given a lot to Harlequins including an almost career long commitment. I feel we should repay him with that commitment and faith regardless of his current wages
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Danny Care will be 32 in January. Probably a good thing to let him go. I bet he's on big wages at Quins.
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Pirates would love Ward back, young Matavesi looked good Vs France
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That was rumoured a month or so ago with Wardy going the other way.
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On the rugby pod, the melted wheelie bin and Andy Goode suggested none too subtly that Sam Matavesi might be headed our way from the Pirates. They were interviewing him and he didn't deny it. Obviously looked pretty good in Fiji's win over France, but probably an unknown quantity for a lot of people on this board I would imagine
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TRP has a few about us
Boyce seems to be off. Wasps thought they had him but Bath have nipped in and look to have snatched him (I thought nothing could be done until jan??)
LCD looks to be leaving Exeter, Us and Tigers have earmarked him as a top target and want to speak in the first week of Jan
Martin Landajo is in advanced discussions to join us next season. 30 yo Argentina SH. Plays for Jaguares in SR and Argentina
Exciting stuff. Shame if Boyce does go, but as said above, not sure how anything can be done already??
Interesting that Blackadder didn`t deny an interest.
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/other-sport/lewis-boyce-bath-rugby-harlequins-2270178?fbclid=IwAR0AOjWAPP_-KHghAEQdet0HM-Oz3SH954a0AnCR8RPetXioDOKfo2_ogk8
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Yes, Chis is a perpetual 8/10 player these days, and still only 23. He reminds me of a young Robshaw in his consistency.
That's a good comparison. I think Robshaw is more polished in his performances, whereas Chis seems a lot more abrasive, but their consistency is excellent.
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I am just looking forward to having Chris Chris and Cliff all starting in the same side. That's quite a back row.
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The Jack Man had a nice mention in one of the national papers this week. It pointed out that he was one of the first players that Eddie Jones name checked when he became England coach.
I still think that J Chis will be the better of the two.
Yes, Chis is a perpetual 8/10 player these days, and still only 23. He reminds me of a young Robshaw in his consistency.
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Imagine Danny behind a pack like that...
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Could be an interesting time from January onwards in terms of recruitment and departures. Slightly off topic I have always thought Will Chudley would be a good 9 for Quins.
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I appreciate people may have actually heard rumours from somewhere but the whole DC move and Sarries and the Argentinian bloke is all in an article I read on one of the rugby sites this week.
It all makes sense.
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Ties in with TRP saying we were in talks with the Jaguares SH. Interesting he is off to Sarries though. Wouldnt be a Marquee player either. I wonder if PG wanted him to stay or was happy to let him go??
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Rather than start another thread I thought that I would continue the rumour Ive just heard that Danny Care is off to Saracens to replace Wrigglesworth at the end of the season. He will be replaced by an Argentinian.
It appears that this is the conclusion to the situations of Saracens needing a replacement for Wrigglesworth who is retiring and DC being out of contract. Didn't DC have a dip in form last time he had contract negotiations.
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The Jack Man had a nice mention in one of the national papers this week. It pointed out that he was one of the first players that Eddie Jones name checked when he became England coach.
I still think that J Chis will be the better of the two.
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Agreed. First half I barely noticed him but second half he was the best player on the pitch by some distance. His workrate for somebody just back from injury is insane.
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Clifford was a standout player for me on Friday. He was everywhere. I was very sceptical he would ever get back to anywhere near the form of a few years back, but all the signs on Friday were very promising.
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Interesting. Samoan sidestep or an English one?
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Billy does one thing really, really well (when he's fit) and that's run straight over people. It's a world class talent because you know he's going to do it but you still can't stop it.
Clifford doesn't have the raw power, but at his best he can be similarly disruptive to defences because he's got options. He is less powerful than Billy but on a par with the likes of Wilson and Shields, but he's fast enough to play at centre and has handling to match.
It needs a bit more skill, but if he can make late decisions and so keep defences guessing, then they can't commit fully to stopping him and he will either make yards or release other players. Like Easter, only fast.
He reminds me a bit of James Forrester (a player whose promise really was snuffed out by injury). But he's not at that stage yet. He is still younger than Robshaw was when he broke into the international setup. Probably too late for this RWC cycle, but I would see him as a genuine contender for the next one of the stays fit.
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Jackman is 6ft 4 and 17st7
versus
Mark Wilson
6ft3 and 17st 9
Not sure the game has changed so much that Jack isn't able to still be a really good premiership player -
Also bloke made his break through in the 14/15 season - played 20+ games, he then played 20+ games the following season(15/16) and then 13 games the season after that(16/17) - he missed one season due to injury (18/18) and yet some people want to write him off.
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I don't see how you can say his promise has "vanished". He's 25 and three matches into a comeback from long term injury. The most you can say is "we haven't seen enough yet to know if he'll make a full comeback."
Billy Vunipola is 26, and is going through a similarly protracted string of injuries. Does that mean that his promise has also vanished? The material difference is that Vunipola established himself as an international before he got injured, whereas it looks like Clifford was already carrying the shoulder injury when he got his chance for England.
I also suspect that which players will get a chance at an England shirt these days is less about style of play and more about who is fit at the right point in time. The key skill for a back rower is becoming managing their own fitness more than anything else (which is one major reason why I wouldn't bet against Robshaw going to the RWC, despite being written off by fans and pundits for the umpteenth time).
All pretty valid, but Vunipola has broken through and is world class. I just don't think Clifford is going to be. I'm not sure that the game hasn't gone past when his size and skills were going to be the best to have. Hope I'm wrong and hope he's great for Quins.
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Also John Kingston, but I don't think anyone really listened to him...
But Ben Darwin's point is subtly different - his analysis of players moving teams suggests that it takes 18 months or more for them to fully integrate into a side and start performing at the level they were at before they left, and longer for props in particular because of the technical aspects of the setpiece (everyone emphasises slightly different things, and you have to learn to work with your fellow front rows).
It's hard for us to appreciate this when we're playing or coaching at an amateur level and individual talent can often overcome team cohesion, but at a professional level the margins are even finer and cohesion counts for so much more.
To give two examples - player for player there weren't many in the 2011-12 Quins team who were clearly better than the best of their opponents. NEv. Maybe Robshaw. But we did have a lot of cohesion and a team that started winning and learning to play off each other effectively and it was enough.
More controversial, perhaps, but the All Blacks aren't that much better than their opponents individually. It's their ability to keep playing their system right to the end of games that usually breaks down opponents in the end, even when they go behind. But on Saturday they came up against a team who could match them step for step in sticking to the game.
It's a very valid point and one that you could make about Exeter currently - the key spine of their team appear to largely home-grown or decently established recruits (Yeandle, Simmonds, Armand, Ewers, Steenson etc etc), with a sprinkling of top-notch imports (Nic White, Kvesic). They have an established system where people know their jobs. Similarly Ireland - they're probably not individually much more talented than England, but have been coached to know their systems and structures inside-out along with the skills and techniques needed to make that system work e.g. breakdown work is top notch so they don't have to commit too many to rucks for quick ball.
If I were a Chiefs fan, I'd be excited about signing Hogg but for the same reasons wouldn't necessarily expect him to move seamlessly over.
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Yes, that was a typo. Maybe he should though then he might live up to his promise of four years ago which has all but vanished sadly for him.
I don't see how you can say his promise has "vanished". He's 25 and three matches into a comeback from long term injury. The most you can say is "we haven't seen enough yet to know if he'll make a full comeback."
Billy Vunipola is 26, and is going through a similarly protracted string of injuries. Does that mean that his promise has also vanished? The material difference is that Vunipola established himself as an international before he got injured, whereas it looks like Clifford was already carrying the shoulder injury when he got his chance for England.
I also suspect that which players will get a chance at an England shirt these days is less about style of play and more about who is fit at the right point in time. The key skill for a back rower is becoming managing their own fitness more than anything else (which is one major reason why I wouldn't bet against Robshaw going to the RWC, despite being written off by fans and pundits for the umpteenth time).
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Looks like Wasps might be struggling to keep a number of their players too, according to this report... (https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/rugby/wasps-dai-young-nathan-hughes-15442481)
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Since Clifford doesn't play in the back 3, I doubt that will have affected his game.
Yes, that was a typo. Maybe he should though then he might live up to his promise of four years ago which has all but vanished sadly for him.
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I wouldn’t build a club sandwich around Clifford let alone a club. Even barring the endless injuries, in the three years he’s barely played - the game has moved on. Dunno if his skill set even works in new way of using back 3.
Never get particularly exited to see him back in squad.
Since Clifford doesn't play in the back 3, I doubt that will have affected his game.
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I wouldn’t build a club sandwich around Clifford let alone a club. Even barring the endless injuries, in the three years he’s barely played - the game has moved on. Dunno if his skill set even works in new way of using back 3.
Never get particularly exited to see him back in squad.
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I think that some of the views expressed here suggest that there is some misunderstanding about what it takes to actually gel a squad into a unit of people who function in the optimum way. I've said this before, but I would heartil recommend anyone who has the time to listen to JBs interview with Ben Darwin, whose main job is thinking about optimizing player performance. You can hear it here;
https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-50bendarwin
For those who don't have the time to listen, the most salient point he makes, in my opinion is how long, on average it takes a player to be in a position, both mentally and physically to be an effective squad member. He's looking at big datasets as well, from across world rugby. The best examples of this in the Prem I guess would be guys like Steenson, Dollman and Whitten at Chiefs, who perform the way they do because they have been allowed to stabilise their performances across a long period. Consequently it just seems unreasonable to make any sort of judgement on someone like Kunatani as he hasn't been around the squad for 5 minutes and the Head coach (who has an idea of the way he wants his squad to gel) hasn't been around much longer.
Anyway, I offer this as a longer view. Give the pod a listen if you have a chance. It made me change the way I look at the players here at Quins both as a fan and as someone interested in qualitative data!
Interesting read, thanks.
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Jack Clifford made 20+ appearances in his first season and 20+ appearances in his second - he broke himself but still made 13 appearances in his third season - during this time he showed he is a really good player and made his england debut - so yeah i would say as a 25 year old who has made 70+ appearances for a club, who lost a whole season to injury that he is well worth investing in - and can't really be compared to Saili who has missed two seasons of rugby (1 here and 1 at Munster).....
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I think that some of the views expressed here suggest that there is some misunderstanding about what it takes to actually gel a squad into a unit of people who function in the optimum way. I've said this before, but I would heartil recommend anyone who has the time to listen to JBs interview with Ben Darwin, whose main job is thinking about optimizing player performance. You can hear it here;
https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-50bendarwin
For those who don't have the time to listen, the most salient point he makes, in my opinion is how long, on average it takes a player to be in a position, both mentally and physically to be an effective squad member. He's looking at big datasets as well, from across world rugby. The best examples of this in the Prem I guess would be guys like Steenson, Dollman and Whitten at Chiefs, who perform the way they do because they have been allowed to stabilise their performances across a long period. Consequently it just seems unreasonable to make any sort of judgement on someone like Kunatani as he hasn't been around the squad for 5 minutes and the Head coach (who has an idea of the way he wants his squad to gel) hasn't been around much longer.
Anyway, I offer this as a longer view. Give the pod a listen if you have a chance. It made me change the way I look at the players here at Quins both as a fan and as someone interested in qualitative data!
Thank you kind sir. I thoroughly enjoyed that listen. Lots of genuine insight, backed up with decent data.
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I thought it was generally accepted that it takes 3 years to build a squad. Pretty sure I heard Martin Johnson say it.
Also John Kingston, but I don't think anyone really listened to him...
But Ben Darwin's point is subtly different - his analysis of players moving teams suggests that it takes 18 months or more for them to fully integrate into a side and start performing at the level they were at before they left, and longer for props in particular because of the technical aspects of the setpiece (everyone emphasises slightly different things, and you have to learn to work with your fellow front rows).
It's hard for us to appreciate this when we're playing or coaching at an amateur level and individual talent can often overcome team cohesion, but at a professional level the margins are even finer and cohesion counts for so much more.
To give two examples - player for player there weren't many in the 2011-12 Quins team who were clearly better than the best of their opponents. NEv. Maybe Robshaw. But we did have a lot of cohesion and a team that started winning and learning to play off each other effectively and it was enough.
More controversial, perhaps, but the All Blacks aren't that much better than their opponents individually. It's their ability to keep playing their system right to the end of games that usually breaks down opponents in the end, even when they go behind. But on Saturday they came up against a team who could match them step for step in sticking to the game.
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I thought it was generally accepted that it takes 3 years to build a squad. Pretty sure I heard Martin Johnson say it.
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I think that some of the views expressed here suggest that there is some misunderstanding about what it takes to actually gel a squad into a unit of people who function in the optimum way. I've said this before, but I would heartil recommend anyone who has the time to listen to JBs interview with Ben Darwin, whose main job is thinking about optimizing player performance. You can hear it here;
https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-50bendarwin
For those who don't have the time to listen, the most salient point he makes, in my opinion is how long, on average it takes a player to be in a position, both mentally and physically to be an effective squad member. He's looking at big datasets as well, from across world rugby. The best examples of this in the Prem I guess would be guys like Steenson, Dollman and Whitten at Chiefs, who perform the way they do because they have been allowed to stabilise their performances across a long period. Consequently it just seems unreasonable to make any sort of judgement on someone like Kunatani as he hasn't been around the squad for 5 minutes and the Head coach (who has an idea of the way he wants his squad to gel) hasn't been around much longer.
Anyway, I offer this as a longer view. Give the pod a listen if you have a chance. It made me change the way I look at the players here at Quins both as a fan and as someone interested in qualitative data!
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According to Paul Gustard there will be a clear out at the end of the season and we will have a smaller squad. I have the impression that he rates Lewis Boyce so not sure about the rumours that he is off. Lasike and Semi were both brought in cheaply to offer something different to the squad.
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Quinky, I think that you are mixing two people's comments up.
I think you're right 😶 apologies to whoever I wrongly slighted...
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Oops.
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Quinky, I think that you are mixing two people's comments up.
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Wallace is incredible when he gets a run of games - we'll have to take your word for that as he's barely had a look in even when fit. Agree that Tapui has been a great signing and Saili looks like he'll be top notch if he can put a run of games together. Semi has not really shown anything beyond adequate squad cover at present.
Harsh on all counts.
Wallace - I think we've seen enough to know what he can do. You can take many people's word for that.
Tapui - as mentioned, you declared him to be a good squad player. Yes... right...
Sailli - you describe him as "not worth it". Then you say he looks like he'll be top notch. Given that injuries are a bitter pill to swallow, I think he's well worth it (to use your parlance).
Semi - well, you won't have seen much, as he's only pulled on a shirt a couple of times. But he has shown some excellent play.
Of course, you could argue that Horwill is "not worth it". How much has he played this season? In fact, some of your assessments are amusing and baffling at the same time.
Ibuanopke - more time needed. Isn't he just out of the academy?
Clifford - build your team around him. Yet his lack of game time through injury would compare to Sailli, and he's achieved less as a player?
I could go on, but... really?
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Wallace is incredible when he gets a run of games - we'll have to take your word for that as he's barely had a look in even when fit. Agree that Tapui has been a great signing and Saili looks like he'll be top notch if he can put a run of games together. Semi has not really shown anything beyond adequate squad cover at present.
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If PG shapes the squad differently it will take a while but here is my twopenny's worth - My only issue is there seems to be a lot of dead wood to shift and that can mean too many changes taking too long to bed in.
Hope im wrong about some......
Alofa Alofa (could stay if cheap)
Auterac (Assume two year deal)
Bothma (could stay)
Boyce (rumoured to be off)
Brown (might be time to earn some euros)
Buchanan (Not playing)
Care ( rumoured to be off after RWC)
The Cat (not sure he is worth the cash)
Cheeseman (Who knows)
R Chisholm (cheap back up)
J Chisholm (build your team around him)
Clifford (build your team around him)
Collier (keep)
Crumpton (Im a fan)
Dombrandt (hope he keeps developing)
Earle (Keeper)
Elia Elia (Could be cheap squad player)
Glynn (he'll be let go)
Horwill (could he be about to retire?)
Ibuanokpe (More time needed)
Semi (Not seen anything to suggest worth paying for)
Lambo (to retire)
Lang (Keep, build the team around him)
Lasike (PG seems a fan)
Lewis (hopefully already out he door)
Luaman (He can go with Dave)
Marchant (Build the team around him)
Marler ( stalwart)
McNulty (keep if cheap??)
Merrick (not sure what to do about him?)
Morris (Useful squad player)
Mulchrone (bang on back up SH)
Robshaw (reckon he'll stay)
Saili (not worth it)
Sink (Keep him happy)
Smith (build the team around him )
South (Meh)
Swainston (so long)
Symons (really good signing)
Tapuai (Good squad player)
Visser (time is up)
Walker (ditto)
Wallace (no thanks)
Ward (So long)
Waters (keep)
White (Meh)
Have to laugh at a few of your player assessments...
Tapuai (good squad player)
Wallace (no thanks)
Saili (not worth it)
Semi (not seen anything to suggest worth paying for)
Yeah, ok...!
Tapuai has been one of our best players, Wallace is incredible when he gets a run of games, Saili (albeit injured for a while) has been great so far since his comeback and Semi likewise in the only two opportunities he's had.
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If he wants to start he needs to seriously up his game.
Agreed - he seemed to be in all sorts of trouble in the scrum on Friday incurring several penalties and it was notable how the scrum became a much more solid platform when Marler came on.
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Priority
J Chisholm
Clifford
Collier
Crumpton
Dombrandt
Earle
Care
Lang
Marchant
Marler
Mulchrone
Robshaw
Sinckler
Smith
Tapuai
Keep
Bothma
Brown
Care
R Chisholm
Horwill
Ibuanokpe
Lasike
Saili
Symons
Waters
Don't mind
Alofa Alofa
Auterac
Cheeseman
Boyce
Elia Elia
Buchanan
Semi
McNulty
Morris
Visser
Walker
Wallace
Ditch
The Cat
Glynn
Lewis
Luamanu
Merrick
South
Swainston
Ward
White
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If we lost all the players NLB expects might go, or would be happy to see leave, we'd be turning over around 40% of the squad in one year. That's not a recipe for success - it's really hard to integrate that many new players and still make things work.
I suspect we might see 4 or 5 senior departures after the RWC, plus 4 or 5 squad players moving on; that creates space for bringing in a few players who will fit Gustard's template, and maybe one or two really big signings.
But mostly I'd like to see us get some squad continuity and cohesion by keeping the majority of the players we already have fit. A run of games with consistent selections and we may start to see some of those players people want to get rid of in a different light; it's difficult to make a good impact in a disrupted, demoralised squad.
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If he wants to start he needs to seriously up his game.
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I strongly suspect that Boyce was told he would be first choice in international periods. That is why I think he started last Friday. I think he will start this Friday for the same reason. We will see...
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Boyce is getting plenty of game time at the moment so don't see why he would move unless it's for the money. I don't think he is at first choice level yet so wouldn't be going in as number one loosehead for anybody .
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In all honesty, I’d rather keep developing Crumpton as our first hooker who is developing more and more each opportunity. He has huge potential to be class. and then spend the huge wages we’d need to get LCD on another position....
Don’t blame Boyce for leaving
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Waters will be a star
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If PG shapes the squad differently it will take a while but here is my twopenny's worth - My only issue is there seems to be a lot of dead wood to shift and that can mean too many changes taking too long to bed in.
Hope im wrong about some......
Alofa Alofa (could stay if cheap)
Auterac (Assume two year deal)
Bothma (could stay)
Boyce (rumoured to be off)
Brown (might be time to earn some euros)
Buchanan (Not playing)
Care ( rumoured to be off after RWC)
The Cat (not sure he is worth the cash)
Cheeseman (Who knows)
R Chisholm (cheap back up)
J Chisholm (build your team around him)
Clifford (build your team around him)
Collier (keep)
Crumpton (Im a fan)
Dombrandt (hope he keeps developing)
Earle (Keeper)
Elia Elia (Could be cheap squad player)
Glynn (he'll be let go)
Horwill (could he be about to retire?)
Ibuanokpe (More time needed)
Semi (Not seen anything to suggest worth paying for)
Lambo (to retire)
Lang (Keep, build the team around him)
Lasike (PG seems a fan)
Lewis (hopefully already out he door)
Luaman (He can go with Dave)
Marchant (Build the team around him)
Marler ( stalwart)
McNulty (keep if cheap??)
Merrick (not sure what to do about him?)
Morris (Useful squad player)
Mulchrone (bang on back up SH)
Robshaw (reckon he'll stay)
Saili (not worth it)
Sink (Keep him happy)
Smith (build the team around him )
South (Meh)
Swainston (so long)
Symons (really good signing)
Tapuai (Good squad player)
Visser (time is up)
Walker (ditto)
Wallace (no thanks)
Ward (So long)
Waters (keep)
White (Meh)
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I'd love to see us linked with a Hooker with consistently good darts...
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I’m not sure a smaller squad would work with the amount of rugby being played and the new season format. Add the fact we must aspire to Champions cup so the Euro games will be even tougher.
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Im not saying we wont sign a LH, what i am saying is this season as an example, do we really need Lambert in the squad?? If we had kept Waters, would we need Lewis. I cant remember Luamanu playing this season, would he be missed??
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Well, even with a smaller squad, you *need* at least 3 LH props. If Boyce is off & Lambo retires, that leaves us with only Marler & Auterac. We need at least one more as a minimum. We have only one LH Prop in the academy (George Head). Unless we rely on a constant stream of "guest" players and short term signings, there's no way we could survive a complete season of Prem, European, Prem Cup, and A League games with just 2 Senior and 1 Academy Loose Head Prop.
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Didn't someone say that PG is looking for a smaller, higher quality squad for next season?
Ive seen that mentioned a few times. Less quantity, more quality, with an expectation that the academy will fill out the squad. As you look at it now, Lambert, Luamanu, Lewis. If they were to leave this minute, would it affect the squad that much???
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Didn't someone say that PG is looking for a smaller, higher quality squad for next season?
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Mullett Hyphen Dickie would be quite a statement of intent if we can get him. If we're serious about the Argentinian, that must mean he knows he won't be a part of the Argentinian squad, as they will only pick players from the Jaguares nowadays.
It would be a shame as others have said to lose Boyce. With Lambo probably retiring (or at least not at his peak), then we'd need another LH on top of Marler & Auterac. Are any of the academy guys ready to step up yet?
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NZ U20 No 10 coming our way apparently
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I agree about the movement, I could see quite a few players looking over their shoulder tbh
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Would welcome both.
Shame to lose Boyce Think him and Marler would be a good scrap for the shirt.
Have a feeling there will be a lot of movement with PG shaping the team how he wants.
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This Jan 1 thing is so pointless - everyone openly says that contact happens anyway all season now.
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Maybe, just maybe, the 1st of January waterline is for unsolicited approaches?
But, if i'm a player out of contract next season, I'm going to use my agent/contacts to find me work....at the best club, for the best money, now!!
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30 yr old SH? Hmm.
Maybe an experienced DC replacement when he goes post WC while we develop Mulchrone and Waters?
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Would be very happy with LCD, can fully understand if Boyce not wants out, he must have invisioned more game time whilst Marker was with England when he signed.
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TRP has a few about us
Boyce seems to be off. Wasps thought they had him but Bath have nipped in and look to have snatched him (I thought nothing could be done until jan??)
LCD looks to be leaving Exeter, Us and Tigers have earmarked him as a top target and want to speak in the first week of Jan
Martin Landajo is in advanced discussions to join us next season. 30 yo Argentina SH. Plays for Jaguares in SR and Argentina
Exciting stuff. Shame if Boyce does go, but as said above, not sure how anything can be done already??