ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: TomBuckQuin on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 12:29*
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This is going to go down like a lead balloon, but...
Have wondered for the past couple of seasons if Robbo's long, hard slog of a career is tailing off now. He's been heroic for us - one of my favourite players ever to play for Quins - but I now have an almost guilty disappointment rush over me whenever I see his name on the team sheet ahead of someone like Clifford or Dombrandt. He just doesn't have the pace or intensity of those guys any more. His engine still tends to see him through 80 mins time after time but I feel like I've also seen him start to have less and less influence on the game. I wonder if his body has just taken way too many impacts now and after those early years of injury problems he's rarely had a break. He looks tired early on in games and it's not for lack of effort because the guy bleeds Quins but he just doesn't do it for me nowadays.
The game has changed - the peak years for your average player used to be the late 20s/early 30s. Now it feels like you're looking at something more like 23-29 being the top of your game. Do others think it's time to let the likes of Clifford/Chis/Dombrandt take over now? I'd absolutely love to see Robbo stick around and become part of the furniture at Quins when he finishes playing - how soon do we think that will be?
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Personally I still think he's Quins' best backrower. Adds nous, still does everything well, more abrasive in defence than ever, still cleans up at the breakdown, and is our best leader. I also still think he's one of England's best flankers though I'm glad both club and country now have options.
He's gotten worse at some things but he's actually also gotten better at reading the game
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He's one of the few players you would build your team around. What he can't do, you could write on the back of a postage stamp with a two inch paintbrush. One of the finest players ever to pull on a Quins shirt. Not a Clifford, not a Dombrandt, not a Chis... but he's Robshaw and is a unique player. I can only recall one game where he was outplayed by his opposite number. But I wouldn't start him every game - it's good to have options, and we now have a great selection of back row players. Sometimes I'd keep him for the bench, and bring him on to change or steady a game.
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Eddie Jones summed him up well when he came to see us recently . He said he was a rare type of player that steps up to International Rugby with batting an eyelid and one he considers a 'sticky' player - ie give him a job , and he will stick to it mainly because he has a sharp rugby brain and reads the game so well .
Injuries and age will always take a toll and he might lose 1/2 metre of pace but ... he's still got it
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He's still got it but we starting to build a really strong squad in those positions so I'd deploy it less often from now on.
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It would be great to be able to manage his game time over the next few seasons to ensure he is playing when we need him and extend his Quins career - look at Schalk Burger at Saracens or George Smith - they offer a lot - but don't need to play every game..
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Dunno yet. Would like to watch him when he's fully fit to see if he still brings enough to the table.
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Not just re Robshaw but a lot of people on this site seem very quick to drop proven, consistent players post injuries
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IMHO absolutely still got it!
Excepting injuries, think he's got, at least, another 2 - 3 years of top flight rugby in him.
As others have suggested that could be extended if his game time was managed, however, I wouldn't be surprised (would be gutted though!) if he went across the channel for a few years to finish his career off...….
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He's gotten worse at some things but he's actually also gotten better at reading the game
Do you manage to get over from the USA for many games?
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Ouch. Consider me schooled
"Become better", then
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Still got it for me. Lets see how he plays when properly injury free and given a bit of time to bed back in. His game was never about speed, or power but about rugby intelligence and that tends to get better with age not worse!
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Not just re Robshaw but a lot of people on this site seem very quick to drop proven, consistent players post injuries
Personally not what I think but we have had a massive problem with failing to recruit for the future - now is exactly when we should have the new Robshaw while still have the old pair.
Club’s failure was not planning for succession until now - care, brown, robshaw, etc etc
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Personally not what I think but we have had a massive problem with failing to recruit for the future - now is exactly when we should have the new Robshaw while still have the old pair.
Club’s failure was not planning for succession until now - care, brown, robshaw, etc etc
Arguably we are at the moment doing just that though?
We've got a good crop of young backrows coming through with baby Chis, Dominator and Clifford...
15 we've got Morris who is a highly rated young player.
9 - who knows?!
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Personally not what I think but we have had a massive problem with failing to recruit for the future - now is exactly when we should have the new Robshaw while still have the old pair.
Club’s failure was not planning for succession until now - care, brown, robshaw, etc etc
Hang on, how is developing players like Wallace, Clifford and the Chisholms not planning for the future? The club has been very unlucky in that all four of them have had extended periods out with serious injury, but the very fact that we can talk seriously about whether Robshaw is first choice any more tells us that they've done a good job in building a pipeline of players.
It's a similar story in most places. In the time I've been supporting Quins we've developed at least one and often two generations of players:
Ceri Jones -> Joe Marler - and would have had Seb Adeniran-Olule but for his unfortunate death
Tani Fuga -> Rob Buchanan -> Max Crumpton (again, Buchanan has been injured but you can't legislate for that)
Mike Ross -> James Johnston -> Kyle Sinckler / Will Collier
Ollie Kohn/George Robson -> Merrick / Matthews and others -> South / Lamb - the middle generation didn't work out and we passed on Launchbury, but this is probably one of the areas that hasn't worked
Andre Vos/Will Skinner -> Chris Robshaw / Luke Wallace -> Jack Clifford / James Chisholm
Nick Easter -> Tom Guest -> Alex Dombrandt (must admit, I never thought I'd see another player like Easter, but Dombrandt is like a Frankenstinian combination of the best bits of Easter and Guest if we can develop him properly)
Andy Gomarsall -> Danny Care -> Sam Stuart (derailed badly by injury) -> Mulchrone / Saunders / Waters
Adrian Jarvis -> Nick Evans -> [numerous attempts that didn't work out] -> Marcus Smith / James Lang
JTH -> ?? the other area where we've failed to find a replacement
Gonzalo Tiesi -> George Lowe (who should still be playing barring that horrendous tackle) -> Joe Marchant
Ugo Monye / Simon Keogh -> Tom Williams, Sam Smith -> Charlie Walker -> Cadan Murley
Can't remember -> Mike Brown -> Ross Chisholm
I've tried to focus on the academy graduates. Not all of them have worked out, and not all of them are fully baked yet - but at the same time our attrition rate has been horrible. JTH and Lowe should by rights still be our centre pairing. Seb should have been coming through. Clifford and Chisholm should have been taking some of the strain off Robshaw a lot earlier.
What do you think the Academy staff do all day? It's all about succession planning. Poorfour Jr is in the first year of a different academy's development programme (because weird catchment areas) and they are watching 2-300 boys in each year group in the knowledge that 1 or 2 of them will make it to Premiership level. It's not an exact science, and it's not easy, but a lot of time and effort goes into it.
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Do you manage to get over from the USA for many games?
Gotten? Good old English word. Glad it's not been completely forgotten.
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My post wasn't necessarily intended to read as "drop Robshaw, never play him again". I guess I just feel that now is the time to really let the Cliffords, Chis-es (Chisii?) and Dombrandts go for it. And they have done this season - but in large part because Robbo's been injured. My worry is that we'll now see him come back in on reputation alone - he should have to fight for his place but in reality I don't think he'll have to, as is the way with these big-name players...
Same at 9 - I was a bit confused when we let Waters go out on loan. He's now at the age where we should be trusting him to at least come off the bench regularly. Certainly over Dave Lewis - if anyone, then Lewis should have gone out on loan instead.
I do think there is a teeny tiny bit of nostalgia-drunk thinking going on on this thread but I've been wrong before. To me it seems that Robshaw objectively isn't as effective as the player he was when he won player of the season and it's not just a yard of pace he's lost. As someone mentioned above, he was never the quickest anyway so any pace lost on top of that and you're going to be less effective - that's just basic logic. He genuinely looks knackered from the very start of games - that wasn't the case 5/6 years ago. I totally agree with what many above have said about Robbo's rugby brain but there is a point where the body can't do what the brain's asking of it quite as much as it used to. I still see all the desire and effort and never-say-die attitude that he's always had, but the same rewards for all that hard work just aren't forthcoming from what I can see.
In the process of forcing myself to separate how much I love the guy and what he's done for Quins from the player he is now I do unfortunately now think we're better off with Clifford/Dombrandt on the flanks most of the time. And with potential new signings in the back row I do wonder how much game time a player like Robshaw should and will get with all that competition. Assuming just one of someone like Kwagga Smith or Will Evans do join, do you still select Robshaw to start 4 times out of 5? I don't know the answer. I guess from a Quins fan's perspective, more competition for places can only be good news - I just don't know how sustainable it is if you continue to pick an old, determined workhorse over an athletically-superior young gun most of the time.
The caveat to all of this, of course, is that my concerns are based on a couple of seasons of pre-injury performance and much of that was during JK's reign of horror - maybe I'm just being unfair. Obviously I'm going to get right behind him if and when he appears in the next game and for the rest of the season but just wondered where everyone else thought he was at. In my mind he, Brownie and Care are in the twilight of their careers and it's critical we start to let others take up the mantle.
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Still think he has it. Just gets injured more often these days so not sure for how many seasons longer. But at the moment still just about has it for me
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Can't remember -> Mike Brown -> Ross Chisholm
- Jim Staples?
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It was Gavin Duffy.
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I reckon this is the first time robshaw has been written off during an injury.
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My post wasn't necessarily intended to read as "drop Robshaw, never play him again". I guess I just feel that now is the time to really let the Cliffords, Chis-es (Chisii?) and Dombrandts go for it. And they have done this season - but in large part because Robbo's been injured. My worry is that we'll now see him come back in on reputation alone - he should have to fight for his place but in reality I don't think he'll have to, as is the way with these big-name players...
Same at 9 - I was a bit confused when we let Waters go out on loan. He's now at the age where we should be trusting him to at least come off the bench regularly. Certainly over Dave Lewis - if anyone, then Lewis should have gone out on loan instead.
I do think there is a teeny tiny bit of nostalgia-drunk thinking going on on this thread but I've been wrong before. To me it seems that Robshaw objectively isn't as effective as the player he was when he won player of the season and it's not just a yard of pace he's lost. As someone mentioned above, he was never the quickest anyway so any pace lost on top of that and you're going to be less effective - that's just basic logic. He genuinely looks knackered from the very start of games - that wasn't the case 5/6 years ago. I totally agree with what many above have said about Robbo's rugby brain but there is a point where the body can't do what the brain's asking of it quite as much as it used to. I still see all the desire and effort and never-say-die attitude that he's always had, but the same rewards for all that hard work just aren't forthcoming from what I can see.
In the process of forcing myself to separate how much I love the guy and what he's done for Quins from the player he is now I do unfortunately now think we're better off with Clifford/Dombrandt on the flanks most of the time. And with potential new signings in the back row I do wonder how much game time a player like Robshaw should and will get with all that competition. Assuming just one of someone like Kwagga Smith or Will Evans do join, do you still select Robshaw to start 4 times out of 5? I don't know the answer. I guess from a Quins fan's perspective, more competition for places can only be good news - I just don't know how sustainable it is if you continue to pick an old, determined workhorse over an athletically-superior young gun most of the time.
The caveat to all of this, of course, is that my concerns are based on a couple of seasons of pre-injury performance and much of that was during JK's reign of horror - maybe I'm just being unfair. Obviously I'm going to get right behind him if and when he appears in the next game and for the rest of the season but just wondered where everyone else thought he was at. In my mind he, Brownie and Care are in the twilight of their careers and it's critical we start to let others take up the mantle.
Well I'm pretty sure that Gussy will show no favour if you are right.
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I reckon this is the first time robshaw has been written off during an injury.
Which is literally what hasn't happened.
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I reckon this is the first time robshaw has been written off during an injury.
I doubt Robshaw has ever been written off by anyone who follows Quins. Fans of other teams write him off on a bizarrely regular basis though.
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Hang on, how is developing players like Wallace, Clifford and the Chisholms not planning for the future? The club has been very unlucky in that all four of them have had extended periods out with serious injury, but the very fact that we can talk seriously about whether Robshaw is first choice any more tells us that they've done a good job in building a pipeline of players.
It's a similar story in most places. In the time I've been supporting Quins we've developed at least one and often two generations of players:
Ceri Jones -> Joe Marler - and would have had Seb Adeniran-Olule but for his unfortunate death
Tani Fuga -> Rob Buchanan -> Max Crumpton (again, Buchanan has been injured but you can't legislate for that)
Mike Ross -> James Johnston -> Kyle Sinckler / Will Collier
Ollie Kohn/George Robson -> Merrick / Matthews and others -> South / Lamb - the middle generation didn't work out and we passed on Launchbury, but this is probably one of the areas that hasn't worked
Andre Vos/Will Skinner -> Chris Robshaw / Luke Wallace -> Jack Clifford / James Chisholm
Nick Easter -> Tom Guest -> Alex Dombrandt (must admit, I never thought I'd see another player like Easter, but Dombrandt is like a Frankenstinian combination of the best bits of Easter and Guest if we can develop him properly)
Andy Gomarsall -> Danny Care -> Sam Stuart (derailed badly by injury) -> Mulchrone / Saunders / Waters
Adrian Jarvis -> Nick Evans -> [numerous attempts that didn't work out] -> Marcus Smith / James Lang
JTH -> ?? the other area where we've failed to find a replacement
Gonzalo Tiesi -> George Lowe (who should still be playing barring that horrendous tackle) -> Joe Marchant
Ugo Monye / Simon Keogh -> Tom Williams, Sam Smith -> Charlie Walker -> Cadan Murley
Can't remember -> Mike Brown -> Ross Chisholm
I've tried to focus on the academy graduates. Not all of them have worked out, and not all of them are fully baked yet - but at the same time our attrition rate has been horrible. JTH and Lowe should by rights still be our centre pairing. Seb should have been coming through. Clifford and Chisholm should have been taking some of the strain off Robshaw a lot earlier.
What do you think the Academy staff do all day? It's all about succession planning. Poorfour Jr is in the first year of a different academy's development programme (because weird catchment areas) and they are watching 2-300 boys in each year group in the knowledge that 1 or 2 of them will make it to Premiership level. It's not an exact science, and it's not easy, but a lot of time and effort goes into it.
Just out of interest, who was it who tackled George Lowe? I remember it was horrendous for sure but can’t remember who? Was it against Saracens again and was he Scottish? For some reason that’s all my mind can gather
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Just out of interest, who was it who tackled George Lowe? I remember it was horrendous for sure but can’t remember who? Was it against Saracens again and was he Scottish? For some reason that’s all my mind can gather
So that would be either Duncan Taylor or Sean Maitland?
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So that would be either Duncan Taylor or Sean Maitland?
I’m not sure and I could be completely wrong but that’s all I have in my head. Do you remember?
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Which is literally what hasn't happened.
A ringing endorsement....
He just doesn't have the pace or intensity of those guys any more. His engine still tends to see him through 80 mins time after time but I feel like I've also seen him start to have less and less influence on the game.
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I’m not sure and I could be completely wrong but that’s all I have in my head. Do you remember?
it was Rhys Gill.
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A ringing endorsement....
He just doesn't have the pace or intensity of those guys any more. His engine still tends to see him through 80 mins time after time but I feel like I've also seen him start to have less and less influence on the game.
He's had one game back after surgery. Some people suggest he was our best player in that game.
Prior to this layoff, he was in the running for MOTM most weeks. His game was never based on pace or intensity; it was about doing his job to a supremely high standard, and not flagging. Both traits remain.
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He's had one game back after surgery. Some people suggest he was our best player in that game.
Prior to this layoff, he was in the running for MOTM most weeks. His game was never based on pace or intensity; it was about doing his job to a supremely high standard, and not flagging. Both traits remain.
I know this is a tough one to comprehend, but I completely agree with you. I think he'll soon be seen as our MVP again, just suggesting that we've seen him written off so many times before - and the op is a write-off.
The emergence of Wilson has seen many England fans call time on his international career. Again, this is something which has happened before, only for him to come back stronger.
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A ringing endorsement....
He just doesn't have the pace or intensity of those guys any more. His engine still tends to see him through 80 mins time after time but I feel like I've also seen him start to have less and less influence on the game.
I genuinely am not sure what point I'm supposed to have made. You said it was the first time he'd been written off. I said that no one one here appears to have written him off.
But are you saying that you are writing him off?
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I genuinely am not sure what point I'm supposed to have made. You said it was the first time he'd been written off. I said that no one one here appears to have written him off.
But are you saying that you are writing him off?
Look at the title of the thread and the opening post. I've added an extract in the post you quoted. TBQ is writing robshaw off. I'm pointing out that he's been written off his whole career, and lots of people have been made to look silly for having done so.
No, I'm not writing him off. Obviously. I don't know if you're being purposefully obtuse.
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I genuinely am not sure what point I'm supposed to have made. You said it was the first time he'd been written off. I said that no one one here appears to have written him off.
But are you saying that you are writing him off?
Think he was quoting me - but at no point have I felt like I'm "writing him off". Just opened a question up to the floor based on my own perception (yup, I think I'm always very clear that it's just my opinion) that he's not had as much impact per game in the past couple of seasons as he used to (and have caveated when I felt appropriate). Even if you choose to read the OP as "writing him off", it's definitely not a personal attack on you Rodney. It almost comes across that by asking whether he's still up to it, you've taken offence to the suggestion that he one day might not be. And I assure you, one day he will be too old to do what he did. My pontification is that it's been happening slowly week-by-week for a period of time (years) in such a way that it's difficult to see it happening and the Robshaw I watch nowadays has certainly adapted his game but that extra loss of pace has, IMO, led to him looking like he's running through heavy mud a lot of the time. And then, yes, he's still doing a lot of good work around the place - just not as much. I. M. O.
Robshaw's been a long-time favourite player of mine, but I don't get upset when people scrutinise him or any other Quins player I particularly like. Equally, I'm not upset that you disagree on this occasion - otherwise I wouldn't have posed the question in the first place.
Obviously part of being a fan is loyalty to your team, squad, individual players - and I'm fully behind Robbo every time he plays. Just as I am every player that takes that field whether I would have picked them that day or not (who, apart from me, cares if I would have?) I guess I'd just like to keep seeing Dombrandt/Clifford/Chisholm take the field on this season's form and if Robbo can fight his way back in and displace one of those guys then I want it to be because he deserves it - not just on past glories.
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Robshaw always looks like he's had little impact on a game until you look at his stats.
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Robshaw always looks like he's had little impact on a game until you look at his stats.
Again, I don't disagree.
But moving away from Robshaw specifically for a second - because I feel stats are too often employed at times like these without context... There are stats (no. of tackles made/missed, no. of passes/kicks/offloads etc) and then there are the real game-changing stats (moments that directly lead to either a Quins score, a swing in momentum, prevention of opposition points). Stats don't tell the whole story and that's when you have to look at how a guy is getting around the pitch, how involved he is in the good stuff, how much he's liable for the not so great stuff. You can make 20 tackles without any of them making a real difference.
So back to the Robshaw question... I guess it's always going to be subjective. If I were to give a one-line answer to the obviously-way-too-trivial subject of this thread (my bad) then in my view based on the trajectory I've noticed in his performances in recent years, he wouldn't be my nailed-on starter at 6 any more. Which I wouldn't have said 3 seasons ago. Whereas the Dombrandt-Clifford-Chisholm back row (however you configure it - I'd personally like to see 6 Chis, 7 Cliff, 8 Dom a lot more) is my favoured back row currently for most games.
To get the debate back on track I guess I would ask the likes of Rodney who they would drop from that back row to make room for Robshaw. Assume Clifford isn't playing for England.
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Anyway. It seems we all agree.
But again I think if Quins didn’t have someone for Robshaw to fight back to get into the side against we’d be in the same bad state we’ve been in since 2012.
He is a great player, but he is nearing the end of his career and any club that hasn’t given up should be in a place where they don’t need to play him every game by now because the next robshaw should already be there - not a prospect in the academy.
Think we’re closer to being in that position now than any time since Connor seemed to have given up on recruitment for the future.
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Think he was quoting me - but at no point have I felt like I'm "writing him off". Just opened a question up to the floor based on my own perception (yup, I think I'm always very clear that it's just my opinion) that he's not had as much impact per game in the past couple of seasons as he used to (and have caveated when I felt appropriate). Even if you choose to read the OP as "writing him off", it's definitely not a personal attack on you Rodney. It almost comes across that by asking whether he's still up to it, you've taken offence to the suggestion that he one day might not be. And I assure you, one day he will be too old to do what he did. My pontification is that it's been happening slowly week-by-week for a period of time (years) in such a way that it's difficult to see it happening and the Robshaw I watch nowadays has certainly adapted his game but that extra loss of pace has, IMO, led to him looking like he's running through heavy mud a lot of the time. And then, yes, he's still doing a lot of good work around the place - just not as much. I. M. O.
Robshaw's been a long-time favourite player of mine, but I don't get upset when people scrutinise him or any other Quins player I particularly like. Equally, I'm not upset that you disagree on this occasion - otherwise I wouldn't have posed the question in the first place.
Obviously part of being a fan is loyalty to your team, squad, individual players - and I'm fully behind Robbo every time he plays. Just as I am every player that takes that field whether I would have picked them that day or not (who, apart from me, cares if I would have?) I guess I'd just like to keep seeing Dombrandt/Clifford/Chisholm take the field on this season's form and if Robbo can fight his way back in and displace one of those guys then I want it to be because he deserves it - not just on past glories.
No worries, I certainly didn't take it as a personal attack. The extract I quoted did look a bit like you were suggesting you think he's over the hill. I don't have a problem with that opinion, my reply was just a way of indicating that I disagree. As has been mentioned, pace was never an asset for CR and he has always more than made up for it with his graft and reading of the game. If anything I think he's more astute now and picks his moments better, rather than needing to be involved in every single breakdown.
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I know this is a tough one to comprehend, but I completely agree with you. I think he'll soon be seen as our MVP again, just suggesting that we've seen him written off so many times before - and the op is a write-off.
The emergence of Wilson has seen many England fans call time on his international career. Again, this is something which has happened before, only for him to come back stronger.
My apologies Rodney, I didn't realise you were quoting. :)
You are right - he gets written off on a strangely regular basis. It seems like every player must be better than him, but none of them are. Wasn't Matt Kvesic supposed to be the player that would take Robshaw's England shirt? Or Steffon Armitage? Or any one of a number of other flankers.
His England career may or may not be over, but his club career has never faltered.
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Anyway. It seems we all agree.
But again I think if Quins didn’t have someone for Robshaw to fight back to get into the side against we’d be in the same bad state we’ve been in since 2012.
He is a great player, but he is nearing the end of his career and any club that hasn’t given up should be in a place where they don’t need to play him every game by now because the next robshaw should already be there - not a prospect in the academy.
Think we’re closer to being in that position now than any time since Connor seemed to have given up on recruitment for the future.
I agree about 80% with that. We need to manage his game time if injuries aren't going to mount up. Fortunately, we now have some very able alternatives. I don't think Conor gave up on recruitment, but he focused heavily on the academy and EQP development only for a lot of the emerging players to get injured or fail to make the step up. The academy has produced a lot of kids who spent a long time in rehab, didn't quite make it or both.
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it was Rhys Gill.
Thanks Rodders! Good memory!
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Sorry that's the most ridiculous suggestion that he may be past it. He'll lead us back to glory and will exorcise his world cup demons in Japan.
One of the best English players of the last decade.
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Depends which of the Robshaws you are talking about..!!
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Sorry that's the most ridiculous suggestion that he may be past it. He'll lead us back to glory and will exorcise his world cup demons in Japan.
One of the best English players of the last decade.
He’s great but that’s not going to happen.
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I know this is a tough one to comprehend, but I completely agree with you. I think he'll soon be seen as our MVP again, just suggesting that we've seen him written off so many times before - and the op is a write-off.
The emergence of Wilson has seen many England fans call time on his international career. Again, this is something which has happened before, only for him to come back stronger.
Rodders I feel rather faint.....
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Thanks Rodders! Good memory!
I still have a dartboard with his face on it...
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I still have a dartboard with his face on it...
Party at your place mate! +1 me on the list! Still so gutted about George Lowe. I was a proper big fan of his, don’t think I’ll ever get over it :(
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I still have a dartboard with his face on it...
Can you add a picture of Dan Cole... For wrecking Chis...
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Just thought it only fair to come back to this thread I started and give a special mention to Robbo, who since coming back from injury has been back to his absolute best. Still 100% class - I was wrong to doubt him. And actually, who says he can't play 7? He's been everywhere - and so has the other one.
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.. and perhaps his call up to the England Training Squad today for the Italy game answers some of the questions ?