ComeAllWithin

Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: Fearless Fred on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 16:19

Title: Elliot Daly
Post by: Fearless Fred on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 16:19
This is assuming he hasn't already signed to Sarries, of course! Just interested to hear peoples opinions...
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: marlowish on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 16:24
all day long go for it
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: GP2110 on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 16:26
Definitely.  Can play FB, Wing, Centre.  Would bring a very useful boot for long range penalties.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rocker on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 16:33
No we've got enough options at 15/wing/ outside centre for me. Besides if we have the kind of money he'd be looking for spare I think we need a good solid lock (or 2 if Horwill doesn't come back) and I'm not sure we've got the cash for both (let alone the celery cap).
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Now ex-Navyquin on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 17:17
As has been said above I believe that other positions need strengthening first like our options at lock.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: The Absolute Quintet on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 17:30
No, Brownie would be livid! 

Got to think this move is purely financial and he's already got or he's hoping for a marquee slot. Saints or Tigers maybe, not Qs. 
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rocker on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 17:58
Doesn't quite make sense to me though, I think he's got to be going somewhere for a 15 slot? But with Le Roux going surely he could get that at Wasps.
I don't think he can be a marquee player for another premiership club. Isn't there a rule about them not being from another club the previous season?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: The Absolute Quintet on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 18:05
Ooh, not sure. That would bar all existing prem players though from becoming marquee players other than at their current clubs, no? Seems potentially illegal or at the least distinctly unfair.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: poorfour on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 18:17
Ooh, not sure. That would bar all existing prem players though from becoming marquee players other than at their current clubs, no? Seems potentially illegal or at the least distinctly unfair.

Yes - but one of the points of the marquee rule was to allow clubs to defend a couple of home grown superstars if they so desired. From memory, a marquee player has to come from outside the existing premiership - which can mean an academy or a foreign player. It's not illegal because it doesn't affect the players' terms (it's purely a variation to the salary cap) and it's part of a commercial agreement between the clubs. If it were illegal, then so would the salary cap as a whole.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: rdc on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 18:53
No we've got enough options at 15/wing/ outside centre for me. Besides if we have the kind of money he'd be looking for spare I think we need a good solid lock (or 2 if Horwill doesn't come back) and I'm not sure we've got the cash for both (let alone the celery cap).

Is he a great player?  Yes

Do we need more talent at wings or FB?  Probably not

Are there other positions we’d do better to invest in?  Definitely
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Yareet on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 19:21
Ooh, not sure. That would bar all existing prem players though from becoming marquee players other than at their current clubs, no? Seems potentially illegal or at the least distinctly unfair.

Not quite all but the vast majority:

Quote from: PRL regs
A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:
(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or
(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B) has only been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or
(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rocker on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 19:56
So yes he can't be a marquee player for anyone but Wasps next season.
Is he going abroad then?
I can't possibly see how Sarries could afford him within the cap!
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: QuinKent on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 20:31
In theory couldn't Sarries move two players like Itoje or Farrell into Marquee category, freeing up space within the cap for someone like Daly who moved from another Prem club?

So yes he can't be a marquee player for anyone but Wasps next season.
Is he going abroad then?
I can't possibly see how Sarries could afford him within the cap!
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rocker on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 21:52
Yes, but who are their current Marquee players? I just don't see how you get Billy, Mako, Farrell, Itoje, Wiggelsworth, George, Kruis and the rest all in the salary cap without adding Daly who isn't going to be going to be cheap. Even if you take 2 of those guys out that's still a hefty wage bill!
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Mayor West on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 22:30
Probably the same way they did before but more invisibly this time.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Comet on Monday 04-Feb-2019, 22:40
No doubt he is a very good player but I love the guys we have got and really love the mentality of the squad we are building. I feel  Daly would disrupt that a bit, behind the scenes. No foundation to this comment, just a gut feeling!
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Everyone’s a Quinner on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 04:01
No. Think we have an already good sized group of talented wingers, centres and fullbacks not to need him. I don’t rate him enough personally to want to sign him and I think we could get better for less money elsewhere. It’s a shame for Wasps... they had him from his academy days and the club and it’s fans really value him. I know he probably wants to go somewhere where there is a better chance on paper that he will get silverware, but can’t help feeling that if he had stayed committed to and with Wasps for another season or two with the reshuffle they look to be having it would be a good option for him. Good luck to him wherever he does go. You tend to find these moves either work really well for the player or can do much the opposite, and there’s never normally an inbetween
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Guildford Quin on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 08:01
It's odd that the club he's going to haven't announced his signing given that Wasps have confirmed his departure. I'd have thought it was a big coup for whoever's getting him.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: stoquin on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 12:15
Yes indeed so where is he going, the rumours say Sarries could any one else really attract him
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rocker on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 13:55
According to the "Rugby POD" he's going to Sarries to play 13. But I can't see how that helps his England career. What if Eddie says I want you playing at 15 week in week out? They aren't going to bin Goode and they've got Liam Williams too. Very odd. Maybe it isn't Sarries, but if not who?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: stoquin on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 14:20
I find it very strange no announcement. DC did say that we had talks with him or his agent so who knows but that still doesn't sort out the playing 15 wiwo
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: RodneyRegis on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 15:58
The guy is a 13 who can cover wing in an emergency. He's a poor full back.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: honkytonk on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 16:05
money would be better spent elsewhere, not for me.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: T-Bone on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 17:19
If he's going there to play 13, can we get one of their current 13s?

Regarding salary cap issues, in light of today's announcement we probably ouught to keep quiet! Plus we have Marler, Sinckler, Robshaw, Clifford, Brown, Care, Smith, Visser, Horwill, Saili, etc
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: RodneyRegis on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 17:23
Meh, it's a week's wages for an england player. Anyone who gets preachy about that can take a hike.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 19:12
Well, it's all moot now, as Sarries on Twitter have just announced he's off to them...
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Guildford Quin on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 19:47
It's Sarries then...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47137409
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Everyone’s a Quinner on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 19:58
Be a tussle for the 15 shirt between him and Goode. So maybe they are hoping to use Hinckley as a Utility Back. Or vice versa as we know Goode has experience playing Centre and Flyhalf aswell as Fullback. Innnnnnteresting!
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Chipstead Quin on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 20:10
Be a tussle for the 15 shirt between him and Goode.

and Liam Williams
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Samquin on Tuesday 05-Feb-2019, 21:33
Confirmation from Sarries site.

https://www.saracens.com/news-article/versatile-daly-to-join-in-the-summer
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: GP2110 on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 00:20
The guy is a 13 who can cover wing in an emergency. He's a poor full back.

This is utter nonsense. He is a world class player capable of playing at centre, full back or wing.  The fact that he played on the wing in all three test matches against NZ, when the British Lions drew the series, is testament to how highly he is rated.

By all accounts, he is one of the few players that Jones considers to be truly world class and someone who will always start when fit, albeit that his position may vary depending on the strategy.

He is also one of the best long range goal kickers in world rugby.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Harleys Evil Step Mum on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 09:05
Lewington, Strettle, Maitland, Goode, Daly....who have I missed in their back line??
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rigoletto on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 09:08
How??? Salary cap......?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 09:11
How??? Salary cap......?

Presumably there will also be players leaving Sarries this summer... So yeah, that'll be how.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Boonie on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 09:40
Presumably there will also be players leaving Sarries this summer... So yeah, that'll be how.

(just don't look too closely at the books...)
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 10:01
I mean, there's not a tonne of it on this thread (yet) but I always get a bit confused as to why a lot of people seem to think they know what Sarries are paying their players. Until they are found out to be breaching the cap again, can we all really sit here and pass judgement that they definitely must be? Maybe they're just good at negotiating deals - maybe the draw of playing for the most successful English club in recent years means they don't have to tempt players with money quite so much.

Also it's important to remember that a lot of their internationals have come through the club and have developed at Sarries - much like we did with our England contingent. I have no inside knowledge of how contract negotiations work but to me it's always seemed logical that whilst those international players' wages will have increased quite a bit in that time, a player who has come through the club is not going to cost as much as if the club hired an equivalent international from another club. When you bring an international player (or any player for that matter) in from another club, logic would dictate that the player/player's agent holds all the cards for that particular negotiation. I'm sure for contract renewals the player knows they could get more elsewhere (because any club looking to tempt them away would need to improve on their current financial situation) but they're staying for other reasons - loyalty, happiness where they are etc.

I also struggle to see why Sarries (or any of the clubs) would want to breach the salary cap. Why would you do that deliberately?

My feeling is Sarries are just shrewd with their business. They've brought in a lot of non-international Saffas to bolster their ranks - who presumably come on a decent rate. They've developed their England internationals at the club and they've fostered a winning environment that any pro at the top of their game would want to be part of. Maybe they have breached the cap but until the evidence is laid out in front of me I'm not going to accuse them of doing so - just feels a bit like petty jealousy.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: KevT on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 10:15
Let's just say there have been previous allegations against clubs rumoured to be breaking the cap that were suddenly the subject of confidentiality agreements in 2015.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11982510/Premiership-rugby-salary-cap-cover-up-is-a-scandal-which-cheats-fans.html
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 10:28
Yeah I remember all that. My point remains: why would they continue to infringe?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: returnoftheshrek on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 10:43
Yeah I remember all that. My point remains: why would they continue to infringe?


To remain the most sucessful club in the country.

Your previous post neglects to recognise that there is a standard supply and demand market outside the premiership i.e. France. Who will pay big money for star players. Sarries have to ensure they keep the best players. (even the ones who they have brought their acadamy) so they are competing against the French as well. Its a short career, players will go for salaries rather than the quality of the clubs scatter cushions.

Whilst no one actually knows salaries, anyone who has followed rugby knows that there are benchmarks for levels of players - published yearly by Rugby magazines.

Put these benchmarks against their squad (once it is finalised) and you will see whether they are over this cap.

A group of us did this the year it was all hushed up and Sarries Leicester and Bath all seemed to be over the cap at the time.

It left a bitter taste when the Premiership caved in to Sarries bully boy tactics when they threaten to go to court.  Hence the animosity of most rugby fans to Sarries and their spending
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Yareet on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 15:23


To remain the most sucessful club in the country.

Your previous post neglects to recognise that there is a standard supply and demand market outside the premiership i.e. France. Who will pay big money for star players. Sarries have to ensure they keep the best players. (even the ones who they have brought their acadamy) so they are competing against the French as well. Its a short career, players will go for salaries rather than the quality of the clubs scatter cushions.


And your post ignores the draw of England. If a player has any aspirations of playing for his country then France is off the table.

You're also implying that the players are equally crooked at least as some of them would have to be involved. I may be naïve but not many pro players come across as being that bent.


The rumours are that Daley has taken a pay cut to move to Sarries and one thing they are very good at is helping with life after rugby (look how many of the players have side gigs set up).

Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 15:44
I would imagine a club as successful as Sarries would be able to attract players and pay lower salaries than clubs who rarely win trophies.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 15:55
I would imagine a club as successful as Sarries would be able to attract players and pay lower salaries than clubs who rarely win trophies.

Should have made my point more succinctly - this is basically what I was getting at.


Whilst no one actually knows salaries, anyone who has followed rugby knows that there are benchmarks for levels of players - published yearly by Rugby magazines.

Put these benchmarks against their squad (once it is finalised) and you will see whether they are over this cap.

A group of us did this the year it was all hushed up and Sarries Leicester and Bath all seemed to be over the cap at the time.

It left a bitter taste when the Premiership caved in to Sarries bully boy tactics when they threaten to go to court.  Hence the animosity of most rugby fans to Sarries and their spending

I get what you're saying but it's not an exact science is it? Where do the benchmarks come from? Based on what level of inside knowledge and what kind of sample size?

I'm not arguing that what Sarries did before was not unacceptable - I was just as angry to hear about the cover up as the next man. But we're now 4 years on from that point. I'd like to believe, until proven otherwise, that those clubs that were previously guilty are now playing by the rules. If they're not and it's evidently being done to gain an advantage - i.e. not just a balls-up in the accounts department - then there need to be consequences. As I would want there to be for Quins if we ever started playing in the muck. And it looks as though PRL have introduced points penalties this season - a tiered system for anything over £350k: https://twitter.com/kean_thomas/status/1093099862172880897
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: dr_miles on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 17:25
Lewington, Strettle, Maitland, Goode, Daly....who have I missed in their back line??

I think I heard/read that Strettle is retiring?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Mayor West on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 20:32
Won’t Saracens have room for Daly’s wages as Maro is coming to us.
  Regarding the cap, I would imagine that the tax lawyers that create loopholes for the rich will have continued to create loopholes for the clubs that continue to wish to ignore the salary cap agreement. Hopefully the cap regulator has said “you can’t do that” and the club that has breached will be dealt with by being relegated if this is the second serious offence.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Wednesday 06-Feb-2019, 22:23

You're also implying that the players are equally crooked at least as some of them would have to be involved. I may be naïve but not many pro players come across as being that bent.


How so? The players would need to know what every other squad member was earning, and be aware of all dispensations and allowances. Even then, the player cannot be seen as complicit.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Yareet on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 07:42
How so? The players would need to know what every other squad member was earning, and be aware of all dispensations and allowances. Even then, the player cannot be seen as complicit.

They don’t need to know what every player’s earning but they can access the rules of the salary cap as easily as anyone (they’re here https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf) so if part of their contract involves ways to circumvent these rules, the player will know.

It has been alleged in the past that players were paid in foreign countries, etc. We can see that this would be an attempt to get round the cap so why wouldn’t a player (plus their agent, lawyer, etc)?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 09:51
Bit of South African Real Estate anyone?...
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 09:55
They don’t need to know what every player’s earning but they can access the rules of the salary cap as easily as anyone (they’re here https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf) so if part of their contract involves ways to circumvent these rules, the player will know.

It has been alleged in the past that players were paid in foreign countries, etc. We can see that this would be an attempt to get round the cap so why wouldn’t a player (plus their agent, lawyer, etc)?

Because a player can be paid in any way that the club deems fit, so long as the club report it. The player cannot be held responsible if the club doesn't report it.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 10:00
If the player knows about something that is against the Laws and doesn't speak up, then that makes him just as culpable.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Only Joe Quin on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 10:14
What Laws is it against? Premiership salary cap regulations are not laws, they are an agreement between the clubs to which the player is not a party. Certainly if the arrangements were illegal eg tax evasion, there would be culpability but otherwise nothing more than a small degree of moral culpability, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Fursty on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 10:25
One of the ways in which a club (I don't know which) used to get round the salary cap is that they had a club pool of Range Rovers, these were technically for anyone to use and therefore didn't convey a benefit on any individual - however only certain people had the keys to each of them.

I know a couple of people who have worked on the salary cap audit and they've acknowledged that it's incredibly difficult to value or even identify all the little extras that players receive - for example squad trip to Dubai where there's no training involved - should this be within the salary cap?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Boonie on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 10:46
This goes back to the "level playing field" argument. Those clubs with rich backers can afford to pay advisors who can identify elements of remuneration that do not need to be declared. The legal arguments in 2015 took a chainsaw (legal advice) to a gentlemen's agreement, and tore it apart. the original agreement never envisaged the lengths that club owners would go to in order to attract and keep the best possible talent. Headline salaries are one thing, but there are myriad ways to attract players that are nothing to do with headline salaries. Should these be included in the cap, or do we just accept that this is now part and parcel of the game? That a club that used to play to meagre crowds and had meagre expectations, but that has changed with the cash injections. Are the over the salary cap? How can you tell these days? That is really the nub of the issue - it is not really possible to work it out now.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 11:27
I know a Forensic Accountant who would relish the challenge.

I get the feeling that things are going okay, don't rock the boat is the current mantra.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Rocker on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 11:42
Still think it is all a bit suspect. No smoke without fire and all that....
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 11:47
If the player knows about something that is against the Laws and doesn't speak up, then that makes him just as culpable.

But how can they "know"? Unless they are party to a huge amount of detail and privileged info.


Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 12:00
One of the ways in which a club (I don't know which) used to get round the salary cap is that they had a club pool of Range Rovers, these were technically for anyone to use and therefore didn't convey a benefit on any individual - however only certain people had the keys to each of them.

I know a couple of people who have worked on the salary cap audit and they've acknowledged that it's incredibly difficult to value or even identify all the little extras that players receive - for example squad trip to Dubai where there's no training involved - should this be within the salary cap?

I would guess that the easiest way is to adopt the HMRC method. "Pool cars" have to fit certain criteria; this would include where they are usually kept overnight, what they are used for, who drives them; mileage logs should be kept etc. HMRC might question why a fleet of Range Rovers were needed as pool cars, but then HMRC are also unlikely to back down against the threat of legal challenges.

One benefit of the HMRC approach is that they put a value on such benefits as company cars, so that would help to determine whether the salary cap is actually being breached. The clubs would also be aware of what the level of remuneration was, and hence could hardly claim ignorance. Of course, there will always be anomalies, but these could be reduced.

Trips to the Middle East - similarly, HMRC have ways to determine whether these are necessary, or whether they are an unpaid for benefit. With companies it tends to involve whether any "work" was done on the trip - so, a jolly to Belgium (for example) might need to include a few training sessions and some PR work, so that it could be considered a business trip. Whereas spending 48 hours drinking 10%ABV beers whilst falling out of horse-drawn carriages might be a harder one to pass off as business related.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Fursty on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 12:08
Quinky totally take your point about the way HMRC treat things and it could be used as a good benchmark, however the salary cap submissions and CT submissions don’t need to reconcile.

On the trips to the ME as you’ve pointed out by having a couple of notional training sessions (soft skills) thrown in its very easy to have a jolly classed as tax deductible.

Out of interest how are image rights treated under the salary cap?

Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 12:54
Quinky totally take your point about the way HMRC treat things and it could be used as a good benchmark, however the salary cap submissions and CT submissions don’t need to reconcile.

On the trips to the ME as you’ve pointed out by having a couple of notional training sessions (soft skills) thrown in its very easy to have a jolly classed as tax deductible.

Out of interest how are image rights treated under the salary cap?



Indeed, Fursty. I'm no fan of much of HMRC's workings, but it would seem to be a thoroughly thought out methodology and most importantly, one that's hard to challenge but relatively clear.

I think image rights are dependent on whether they "belong" to the club or the player. Obviously a player can control their own, and I'd say that's something that agents and clubs may use in negotiations. But I seem to recall that in the days when professionalism was being brought in, there was the guideline that if a player earned money from images or appearances whilst wearing their kit, it counted as rugby related earnings; if not (such as Personal Appearances, after-dinner speaking etc) then it wasn't. Maybe that's still a consideration? Similarly, if the club had a veto on any work that a player could take up, logic suggests that it must somehow affect the salary cap if not being included in it - otherwise the club could simply arrange for remuneration through such a channel and thereby bypass the cap restrictions.


These are just my thoughts of course. I have no knowledge of the inner workings of club finances and if/how they can circumvent the cap. I can think of plenty of ways in which at first sight they could get around it, but of course there may be preventions in place to safeguard against any of these. At the same time, whilst many ways would be easy to detect, it must also be said that a good accountant will be able to find ways which are harder or seemingly impossible to detect. Some ways may even be legitimate - such as the players being given better tax planning advice, very generous pension schemes, future career opportunities etc.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Mayor West on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 19:40
Does anybody know how Saracens did it?  Something must have leaked by now. Was it as simple as being arrogant enough to think that it is not law but just an agreement so not legally binding. The players wouldn’t have to know that they are breaking the cap rules if they don’t all know each other’s contracts. They would probably think they just had a great deal for themselves.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Yareet on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 07:22
I’ve posted this before but the cap rules are available at https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf

Page 38 is where the definition of salary begins.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Blucherquin on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 08:16
One of the ways in which a club (I don't know which) used to get round the salary cap is that they had a club pool of Range Rovers, these were technically for anyone to use and therefore didn't convey a benefit on any individual - however only certain people had the keys to each of them.

I know a couple of people who have worked on the salary cap audit and they've acknowledged that it's incredibly difficult to value or even identify all the little extras that players receive - for example squad trip to Dubai where there's no training involved - should this be within the salary cap?

I don't get this -- bonuses and perks are not part of salary as far as HMRC is concerned in any other walk of life, so their salary is their salary. It should be very straightforward to measure.

Admittedly this would be their declared salary. But as above, they aren't breaking a law if they mess with the salary cap.

I have no clue - but if I was a "big" player I'd insist on being paid via a ltd company and funnel all my other benefits and activity through there. So I assume something happens along those lines.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Yareet on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 09:40
I don't get this -- bonuses and perks are not part of salary as far as HMRC is concerned in any other walk of life, so their salary is their salary. It should be very straightforward to measure.

Admittedly this would be their declared salary. But as above, they aren't breaking a law if they mess with the salary cap.

I have no clue - but if I was a "big" player I'd insist on being paid via a ltd company and funnel all my other benefits and activity through there. So I assume something happens along those lines.

“Salary cap” is perhaps a misnomer. “Remuneration cap” would be more accurate.

In a not unrelated subject, as a recruiter our fee is a percentage of the guaranteed earnings. In most cases a bonus isn’t counted towards our calculations unless it’s guaranteed - to stop somebody paying £1k salary and £49k “bonus”.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 09:53
Any bonus I have ever had has been taxed.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Brown Bottle on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 09:53
Quote
I don't get this -- bonuses and perks are not part of salary as far as HMRC is concerned in any other walk of life, so their salary is their salary. It should be very straightforward to measure.

Eh? Bonuses are certainly taxable. As are perks such as private health care and company cars.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 10:50
I have no clue - but if I was a "big" player I'd insist on being paid via a ltd company and funnel all my other benefits and activity through there. So I assume something happens along those lines.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, one way in which a club could help a player is through tax planning, and this is definitely a way to do that. However, the amount paid by the club shouldn't be affected - it's just the amount retained by the player.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: marlowish on Friday 08-Feb-2019, 16:55
Yeah I remember all that. My point remains: why would they continue to infringe?
Because they can because there was no sanction against them last time and therefore no reason to stop cheating
How can anyone look at that squad and think it is within the cap - unless they have players who are really thick and do not know what they are worth
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Blucherquin on Sunday 10-Feb-2019, 17:44
Eh? Bonuses are certainly taxable. As are perks such as private health care and company cars.

They aren’t your salary. They are taxed.

It makes a difference to your employer.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Sunday 10-Feb-2019, 18:19
They aren’t your salary. They are taxed.

It makes a difference to your employer.

I think the salary cap covers all remuneration, not just salary.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Brown Bottle on Sunday 10-Feb-2019, 19:46
They aren’t your salary. They are taxed.

It makes a difference to your employer.

Whatever the difference to your employer I think you'll find HMRC are very interested, which is what you originally disputed.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: T-Bone on Sunday 10-Feb-2019, 20:20
I realise this is now off topic but Daly had VC a good in attack today
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: GP2110 on Sunday 10-Feb-2019, 20:47
He’s a fantastic player.  The last two games have shown how ridiculous the comments on this England team were just over a week ago.

Manu and Slade look great in midfield. May is the form winger in the world right now. Youngs has been very good. Farrell excellent at fly half. And daly an automatic starter.

The fact we can replace itoje with Lawes and then add Launchbury to the bench is the reason why we will win the grand slam in my opinion. Our squad depth is excellent.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Blucherquin on Monday 11-Feb-2019, 08:30
Whatever the difference to your employer I think you'll find HMRC are very interested, which is what you originally disputed.

I didn't. I said that HMRC doesn't regard things that aren't your salary as your salary. Of course they tax bonuses and other non-salary payments. But if you're running a company, it makes a massive difference to your books and operating cash what counts as your salary bill and what doesn't.

No idea how they work it for rugby, as I said. What is the "salary" measured in the cap because obviously HMRC doesn't care about an internal rugby rule, they just want their cash.

Original point was that if it's anything to do with what is declared as a "wage" bill it doesn't have to include other ways of paying employees money. But you'd hope Prem Rugby wasn't as stupid as to take these things on face value.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Blucherquin on Monday 11-Feb-2019, 08:32
On a totally unrelated note, Daly was superb going forward yesterday.

England no longer have a traditional 15 but it's working v well.

Since the number on the shirt doesn't mean a lot the way they're playing now it really doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: thatchapcarnell on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 10:47
For an excellent and in-depth look at the salary cap and what is and is not included then have a listen to the Eggchasers rugby podcast this week (the domestic mid-week one rather than the 6N one).

Their conclusion is that it is VERY difficult to breach the cap and that there are good reasons why players may be earning less at Saracens than they could elsewhere.

Not saying that's definitely correct but it made me think again about the issue.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Fursty on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 11:38
For an excellent and in-depth look at the salary cap and what is and is not included then have a listen to the Eggchasers rugby podcast this week (the domestic mid-week one rather than the 6N one).

Their conclusion is that it is VERY difficult to breach the cap and that there are good reasons why players may be earning less at Saracens than they could elsewhere.

Not saying that's definitely correct but it made me think again about the issue.

I've just listened and they completely missed the point - of course it's easy to police the salary cap if everyone declares all their expenses. However if you don't record the expense then there's plenty which could be excluded.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 12:41
Isn't that what Spot Auditors are for?
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: thatchapcarnell on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 12:44
I've just listened and they completely missed the point - of course it's easy to police the salary cap if everyone declares all their expenses. However if you don't record the expense then there's plenty which could be excluded.
Are you suggesting that clubs are simply giving money to players and not declaring it?

That's an accusation that they aren't just being creative with accounting but are in flagrant breach of the rules.

Unless every club is doing it, I can't work out why there wouldn't be more fuss made by those that aren't doing so. If Quins truly thought that Saracens were, off the books, bunging their players hundreds of thousands of pounds (and then those players were committing tax fraud by not declaring the income), they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Not to mention that players talk - if Itoje, Kruis, George etc are on England duty and rubbing shoulders with players from other clubs there's no way that the cheeky £200k they are getting on the side, illegally, doesn't get leaked out.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Fursty on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 14:12
Are you suggesting that clubs are simply giving money to players and not declaring it?

That's an accusation that they aren't just being creative with accounting but are in flagrant breach of the rules.

Quite possibly yes - and the players have no idea how things are being accounted for or which bank account they’re being paid from.

It’s also not going to be one player getting an extra £200k an extra £10k per player across the squad basically buys you an extra lions starter.
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Quinky on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 15:20
Isn't that what Spot Auditors are for?

That's for when things have become a little rash...
Title: Re: Elliot Daly
Post by: Mayor West on Wednesday 13-Feb-2019, 18:54
If there was another company that was nothing to do with an offending club that employed the players as consultants as well, this wouldn’t be in the cap would it? A mega rich owner could create a company that also paid players but not for rugby related things. It seems to me that there are all sorts of companies that are consultancies but don’t actually do anything, they are just for moving money around and avoiding taxes quite legally but maybe not morally. The other salary would be taxed and above board but the players would know I would think.