ComeAllWithin

Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: Bolly-Quin on Monday 27-May-2019, 16:09*

Title: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Monday 27-May-2019, 16:09*
Recent articles have shown that Irish teams (for example and most commonly) allow their most talented, centrally contracted (or similar method) players to be rested with some players reported to have played about half the amount/time as their English International rivals. This allows them to rest players to ensure their health and availability for top European cup and International games. Should the RFU/English Premiership try to match this? Not having to worry about relegation means they should be able to manage resources more effectively.

Would there be an impact on attendance?
What is the effect on the less recognised players - do/would they get the same protection?
Will it help develop squad talent/depth?
Is ring-fencing the way forward and would it help a) welfare and b) better performance in cups/tests?
Are there other factors involved?

There are many facets to this - I suspect this poll won't answer all the points and I may be simplifying and conglomerating several issues, but what do you think?
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Tuesday 28-May-2019, 09:32*
2:1 in favour of no (real) change so far...
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Tuesday 28-May-2019, 10:44*
3:1 in favour of no (real) change now...
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: marlowish on Tuesday 28-May-2019, 12:16*
Recent articles have shown that Irish teams (for example and most commonly) allow their most talented, centrally contracted (or similar method) players to be rested with some players reported to have played about half the amount/time as their English International rivals. This allows them to rest players to ensure their health and availability for top European cup and International games. Should the RFU/English Premiership try to match this? Not having to worry about relegation means they should be able to manage resources more effectively.

Would there be an impact on attendance?
What is the effect on the less recognised players - do/would they get the same protection?
Will it help develop squad talent/depth?
Is ring-fencing the way forward and would it help a) welfare and b) better performance in cups/tests?
Are there other factors involved?

There are many facets to this - I suspect this poll won't answer all the points and I may be simplifying and conglomerating several issues, but what do you think?


The Celtic league is dull with no relegation so no pressure and most of the games have at least 1 team with nothing at all to play for - which I am sure is one reason most matches do not attract big crowds. 

I pay for a ST and travel 2 hours each way to a game to see the best players we have play for my club.

Personally I do not really care about the 6N or the Autumn games.  I have no wish to pay the prices for a ticket that is asked at £90 plus usually and sit among people who are very often there on a corporate jolly, so will never go to a game.  I am far more interested in my own team who I watch week in week out home and away and have supported for many years. 

I am sure that if relegation was scrapped and players were rested and played less games they would be fresher for internationals and European games. 

As Quins play no more than 6 European games in the best possible scenario I would not pay for a ST and go to games in which usually only 1 team at most would have anything to play for.  To me that is just a friendly. 

As an example if Quins were say 11th and another club 12th I would not be inclined to make the effort to go and watch if there was nothing at stake.  If there was a possibility we could get relegated I would go and shout myself hoarse supporting my team. 

Clearly if players play less games they have less chance of getting an injury.  I feel for any player or indeed anyone who gets hurt in any circumstances.  To me though it is a trade off - they get paid well to do a job they love doing.  They are not forced to play and if they are risk averse they can do another job. 

Sadly I am sure that ring fencing will come in and at that time I will not get a ST as to me a league with no promotion and no pressure or relegation is micky mouse and just worth bothering with.  I will I am sure go to the odd game that appeals but will not make the effort that I have done for many years.   

I am sure others have a different view and that is fine but that is just how I feel. 



Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Tuesday 28-May-2019, 14:35*
I am sure others have a different view and that is fine but that is just how I feel.

I am sure that many would agree with your thoughts on this (they certainly appear to), Marlowish.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 31-May-2019, 10:31*
For me I will always make the effort to go whether its a dead rubber or not. There are other things in sport than winning pots and relegation, such as watching younger players develop and seeing some great players in action. This is Quins and we can beat anybody on our day.

COYQ!!
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Banstead Quin on Friday 31-May-2019, 10:57*
The other factor about the Irish sides, and this is what really winds me up, because they are centrally contracted, they are paid for by the IRFU so it still gives them the ability to have one good local (as in Irish) and one good overseas player in each position without spending more. Thereby maintaining a good league position whilst resting the key players for Europe and Internationals.

Moan all we like (and we do!) about Saracens but at least Farrell, Itoje, Billy V etc play most of the club matches outside of International and European windows.

If we ring fence, it won't be long before we go Franchise and then European franchise etc
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Friday 31-May-2019, 11:27*
Quote
so it still gives them the ability to have one good local (as in Irish) and one good overseas player in each position without spending more. Thereby maintaining a good league position whilst resting the key players for Europe and Internationals.

Leinster only have about 4 furriners, and I'm pretty sure none of the other provinces have one in each position either. They have far fewer overseas players in their set-up than we do in ours.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Brown Bottle on Friday 31-May-2019, 13:33*
Leinster only have about 4 furriners, and I'm pretty sure none of the other provinces have one in each position either. They have far fewer overseas players in their set-up than we do in ours.

I bet Banstead Quin is still really wound up, though.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: T-Bone on Friday 31-May-2019, 17:16*
Didn’t ruan pienaar have to leave because they have a rule that between the three provinces (I think Connacht are excluded as a development province) that there can only be one non Irish qualified player in each position? Have I completely made that up?
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Brown Bottle on Friday 31-May-2019, 20:40*
No, T-Bone, I'm sure you're right, but I don't remember the details.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Sunday 02-Jun-2019, 11:07*
A rough 65% - 35% split in favour of no ring-fencing after ~ 50 votes. Fairly definitive, I'd say...
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: marlowish on Monday 03-Jun-2019, 09:17*
For me I will always make the effort to go whether its a dead rubber or not. There are other things in sport than winning pots and relegation, such as watching younger players develop and seeing some great players in action. This is Quins and we can beat anybody on our day.

COYQ!!

I have been a ST at Quins for many years so I am hardly one who is only interest by watching a team that wins everything   :)

I just have no interest in watching a game where most of the time at least 1 team has nothing to play for. 

We can beat anyone on our day I agree with you but I would take no joy out of beating a team that has nothing to play for.

I guess we all have a different perspective and different motivators to go to sport.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Banstead Quin on Monday 03-Jun-2019, 10:36*
I bet Banstead Quin is still really wound up, though.

More wound up that I clearly don't know my facts before posting!!!!

Will do better research next time.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: never sleep on Monday 03-Jun-2019, 10:56*
I am not convinced that ring fencing is the only way to protect player welfare.  I think that there are far more creative options available that would also (probably) even out the Premiership.

Firstly, I would be in favour of increasing the Premiership to 14 teams and having a 2 up/2 down approach.

Secondly, I would scrap the Premiership trophy.  It is pointless as there are now only 12 teams in it and there is too much of an imbalance between clubs playing development squads and clubs playing their full strength squads.  Scrapping this cup will free up enough weekends to play the extra 4 premiership games needed.

Thirdly, I would introduce a mandatory number of games that each player needs to be rested for through the regular season (i.e. ignoring play-offs).  E.g. Each player would have to be rested for 8 games of the season.  This would help with player welfare and introduce an interesting dynamic to managing the squads.  I would introduce a simple penalty system along the lines of - each team who has not rested a player would be deducted 4 points per player/game at the end of the season.  I think that something along these lines would be transparent and easy to police.

I think that the third item would also help to get the academy players playing in the first team as, with injuries, international call-ups and rest days, most clubs will be short of players in key positions.  This would really give younger players the chance to step up and get regular game time.  But, the key point is that all clubs would be in the same position.  Also, the important thing is that all games are meaningful, no matter what the % of fringe players in the starting 15 is.

For the play-offs and Euro competitions, teams would be able to use their full complement of players.  The resting of key players would hopefully mean that English clubs have a slightly better chance at progressing through to the Euro cups finals.

[edited - spelling]
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Boonie on Monday 03-Jun-2019, 14:03*
Re your third point, whilst bringing academy players into the first team would certainly help their development, surely that would increase the risk of injury, particularly in high contact positions like the front row? An academy prop playing against a seasoned veteran is surely at higher risk? We've certainly seen games where due to injury, academy players are brought in to cover, and can get injured as a result.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: Yareet on Monday 03-Jun-2019, 16:27*
I am not convinced that ring fencing is the only way to protect player welfare.  I think that there are far more creative options available that would also (probably) even out the Premiership.

Firstly, I would be in favour of increasing the Premiership to 14 teams and having a 2 up/2 down approach.

Secondly, I would scrap the Premiership trophy.  It is pointless as there are now only 12 teams in it and there is too much of an imbalance between clubs playing development squads and clubs playing their full strength squads.  Scrapping this cup will free up enough weekends to play the extra 4 premiership games needed.

Thirdly, I would introduce a mandatory number of games that each player needs to be rested for through the regular season (i.e. ignoring play-offs).  E.g. Each player would have to be rested for 8 games of the season.  This would help with player welfare and introduce an interesting dynamic to managing the squads.  I would introduce a simple penalty system along the lines of - each team who has not rested a player would be deducted 4 points per player/game at the end of the season.  I think that something along these lines would be transparent and easy to police.

I think that the third item would also help to get the academy players playing in the first team as, with injuries, international call-ups and rest days, most clubs will be short of players in key positions.  This would really give younger players the chance to step up and get regular game time.  But, the key point is that all clubs would be in the same position.  Also, the important thing is that all games are meaningful, no matter what the % of fringe players in the starting 15 is.

For the play-offs and Euro competitions, teams would be able to use their full complement of players.  The resting of key players would hopefully mean that English clubs have a slightly better chance at progressing through to the Euro cups finals.

[edited - spelling]

Most of the Prem Cup games are held during Test weekends. Even the final was the day after round 5 of the 6N. Playing Prem games on those weekends penalises teams with international players.

So now we’re trying to squeeze 4 more games into and overcrowded season.

For point 3, there is a required number of minutes for the England players. Otherwise what constitutes a game? 10 minutes of the bench is less tiring than a full 80 after all.
Title: Re: POLL:- Ring fencing as a way to enable better player welfare
Post by: never sleep on Monday 03-Jun-2019, 16:50*
But, even if a player only plays for 10 minutes off the bench, the player is still prepared to play for the full match and does all the training for the full week.  Rested players get a chance to recover their bodies.

Clearly, my suggestion above would need work, but, what I am suggesting is that there are (in my opinion) alternatives to safeguarding players besides ring-fencing.