ComeAllWithin

Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: Quinsgirl84 on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 13:25*


Title: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Quinsgirl84 on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 13:25*
 :'( So once again it be Youngs going as number 9!!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-world-cup/2019/06/13/danny-care-axed-world-cup-chris-robshaw-dylan-hartley-places/
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: QuincyJones on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 14:07*
Could be right about Danny as he does seem to have fallen out of favour but I just can’t see Robshaw not going. He’s missed this year with injury but the second he was fit EJ got him straight back into his training squad. If Shields goes above Robbo it’ll be absolute madness.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Fearless Fred on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 14:26*
The print copy of the Boris Johnson fansheet Telegraph reckons that all three of our players who played in the England XV vs the BaaBaas are in the mix as bolters for the RWC squad, Smith and Marchant particularly.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Quins-Az on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 14:57*
without my quartered tinted sunglasses on...

Isn't Danny one of the form (not just english) scrum halfs in the league based on this season?

I can't see how he doesnt get into the training squad...
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: harlequins on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 15:04*
Kicking the ball out at half time vs Japan has ended his England playing days...
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Fursty on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 15:22*
Kicking the ball out at half time vs Japan has ended his England playing days...

I think words might have been exchanged too
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: T-Bone on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 15:24*
Bizarre. Well, we've done badly at the last 2 word cups wih Youngs plodding about at 9, so third time lucky
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 17:27*
I don't think Care has ever shown he's better than Youngs as a starting scrum half (I mean, consistently). It will be a bit of a surprise if he's left out though, as he has certainly been a very good impact player from the bench.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 17:40*
Are we actually surprised though? DC is one of Quins' absolute key players these days - one of the first names on the team sheet. But he's been sooo inconsistent in an England shirt. Whenever he put it on it's like he thought he was playing for France, you just never knew if he'd be totally inspired or put on an utter shambles of a performance. Often, he was somewhere in between, with the occasional serious brainfart cancelling out any good work he did.

Now, I think Youngs has been INCREDIBLY lucky to get the number of caps he has. He's slow off the mark, his passing is generally loopy and he gets tired quickly. Nevertheless, he's focused on his one or two strengths (box-kicking and... okay now I'm struggling...) and that seems to have been enough. I personally think Robson should have been given more of a shot, but that's largely irrelevant now given his health/fitness issues. I'm just not surprised to see Care left out - the writing has been on the wall for quite a while really. Eddie doesn't trust him to go steady rather than totally off script. I don't think we can really blame him - in an England shirt Danny has mostly been infuriating and as such never really locked down the starting berth for any extended period of time when Youngs was also available.

I'd be more surprised if Robshaw doesn't go. Brownie feels 50/50 but if I had to call it I'd say he's not going either.

Selfishly, potentially good news for the start of our GP campaign.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: poorfour on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 17:52*
Can't be bothered to deal with the Telegraph paywall. Does it name a source?

Care isn't a starter,with the style Eddie wants to play, but he's the best finishing scrum half England have. The number of tries he's created in the last quarter have been very instrumental in a lot of victories - remember his personal demolition of Australia? - and I am willing to bet that he might have made the difference against Wales in the 6N.

I just don't get why Eddie would refuse even to look at players who've been part of his setup for three quarters of his tenure, are the most experienced options in their positions, and haven't noticeably dropped in form. I could understand them not making the final 31, but I'd be perplexed if they weren't in the initial training squad.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Teddington Taff on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 18:04*
His last game for us against Wasps (away) he was dreadful.  He looked as though he just didn't want to be there.  that has been his major problem over the past three seasons - on a good dy he's worldclass with moments of sheer brilliance.  On an off day he's petulent and just not interested.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Domestos on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 18:46*
Kicking the ball out at half time vs Japan has ended his England playing days...

You wouldn't care (whoops!) to jog my/our memories, would you?
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: JammyGit on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 18:48*
Danny's a supersub at  international level, nothing more. Hell of a trick though, given his try scoring / creating record. If Robson were fit I'd have been happy with a 6N partnering of Robson/Spencer tbh.

Now, if Bad Shields get picked ahead of Robshaw, then the pitchforks will come out.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Quintron on Friday 14-Jun-2019, 23:04*
Care, Robshaw & Brown are yesterday’s men. Sinkler will be the only Quin going unless there is an Injury crisis.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Gone on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 08:07*
It’s been v clear that DC’s England days are over.

Robshaw I guess could just sneak in but no way he’s in the starting XV.

Will Eddie take Brown? Dunno. He’s not a Jones player, can’t cover multiple positions.

The interchangeable back 3 worked pretty well without him - May took a lot of the high balls.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Quinston Churchill on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 09:51*
Can't be bothered to deal with the Telegraph paywall. Does it name a source?

Care isn't a starter,with the style Eddie wants to play, but he's the best finishing scrum half England have. The number of tries he's created in the last quarter have been very instrumental in a lot of victories - remember his personal demolition of Australia? - and I am willing to bet that he might have made the difference against Wales in the 6N.

I just don't get why Eddie would refuse even to look at players who've been part of his setup for three quarters of his tenure, are the most experienced options in their positions, and haven't noticeably dropped in form. I could understand them not making the final 31, but I'd be perplexed if they weren't in the initial training squad.

Yep. 100% agree.

Care, Robshaw and Brown have been in great form, so it’s hardly as though we’re arguing that they’re suggested off the back of ‘credit in the bank’/past performances.

Selection is always very subjective (particularly under Eddie), but to ignore a group of players who have almost always delivered for England for the training squad at this late stage is just completely illogical. Particularly when the players likely to replace them are not obviously superior or in better form.

England’s loss is our gain, but it feels grossly unfair for their England careers to end in a fairly humiliating way.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Domestos on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 10:02*
Can't be bothered to deal with the Telegraph paywall. Does it name a source?


Quote

Telegraph Sport understands that Care has been directly informed that he will not be going to Japan, while former captain Chris Robshaw’s hopes also appear to be in the balance. Neither has featured under Jones this year having been mainstays for the first three years of the Australian’s reign.

Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: poorfour on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 12:50*
Thanks. If so, that is really quite bizarre, especially if the rumours of taking a makeshift regards reserve scrum half are true. On the other hand "understands that X has been informed" is "someone told us that someone told someone else something", so I would take it with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Gone on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 14:09*
Thanks. If so, that is really quite bizarre, especially if the rumours of taking a makeshift regards reserve scrum half are true. On the other hand "understands that X has been informed" is "someone told us that someone told someone else something", so I would take it with a pinch of salt.

What that normally means is the person in question has told everyone.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 15:01*
...Bad Shields...

 ;)
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: JammyGit on Saturday 15-Jun-2019, 16:51*
Deliberate, I can assure you.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: HarTley Quin on Sunday 16-Jun-2019, 16:12*
I guess it depends on how Eddie wants to play. And the fact that we don't know that in itself says something.  If he  wants to base his attack on the Sarries "kick and compete" model then I suppose there's an argument for taking Spencer and Wrigglesworth.

Given that Itoje and Lawes can both play 6 I think he'll only take 5 back row forwards. Wilson, Curry and Vunipola feel like 100% and I think he'll take Underhill.  That leaves one place beteween Robshaw, Shields, Hughes, Simmonds.  I think he's more likely to take a second 8 given the comment about Itoje and Lawes.  I fear he will take Hughes who in my humble opinion is a poor man's Vunipola.  Personally I would take Robshaw and have Wilson as my backup 8 but I am not convinced this will happen.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 11:09*
You'd think Kvesic is in the mix for the back row too. It is one of the most competitive areas, whichever way you look at the options...
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: T-Bone on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 12:03*
This is still annoying me when it really shouldn't.

If Jones took Youngs and then 1 or 2 of Wigglesworth and Spencer I wouldn't agree but could understand it. It's the possibility of Heinz going which I just find silly.

Heinz is not, to me at least, a player so good they're worth bringing in with no previous experience (unless you count one training squad). He's not like Archer at the cricket world cup, or like someone like Beauden Barrett qualifying via residency a few months before the tournament. He's a player who's been available for a while I believe but who presuably hasn't been deemed worth giving a proper opportunity before.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 12:29*
This is still annoying me when it really shouldn't.

If Jones took Youngs and then 1 or 2 of Wigglesworth and Spencer I wouldn't agree but could understand it. It's the possibility of Heinz going which I just find silly.

Heinz is not, to me at least, a player so good they're worth bringing in with no previous experience (unless you count one training squad). He's not like Archer at the cricket world cup, or like someone like Beauden Barrett qualifying via residency a few months before the tournament. He's a player who's been available for a while I believe but who presuably hasn't been deemed worth giving a proper opportunity before.

I think Eddie Jones as ultimate squad selector gives you all the context you need - does he even know what he's going to do next?

More seriously, you could maybe posit that Heinz is a leader (Glaws captain) and if you assume that rumour is correct that Hartley and Robshaw are apparently set to miss out he could bring that steadying influence at the base of the ruck? I quite like Heinz - he's very solid - but agree that he's unlikely to set the RWC alight.

I do think that 9 is one position Eddie needs to put resource and effort into developing post-RWC. When you compare our options to the likes of SA's (Faf de Klerk, Cobus Reinach to name just the Prem players) and closer to home, Wales' (who have had strong depth at 9 for years now) and now France's with Dupont coming through... we don't really look overly frightening off the base do we? Hoping that the likes of Harry Randall continue to develop and we see a new era of English scrum halves who can do a bit more than just pass and kick.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Chipstead Quin on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 12:50*
Eddie Jones is exploring the depth of the number 9's he has available

At the time, England head coach Eddie Jones said: “Heinz has a good feel for the game but you have got to remember we are bringing him in for this camp only. We never know when we might need these players.

"Look at the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand where Stephen Donald was fifth choice for the All Blacks.

“We might get to the final in 2019 and need to find a fifth-choice scrum-half. Now, potentially, I know who the fifth-choice number nine is.”


https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/could-gloucester-rugby-captain-willi-2961224

With Youngs at 1 and Heinz at 5 .. who would fill the other slots ?

England usually take 3 Scrum Halves to the RWC , but Jones only took 2 with Australia is 2003 and the same with Japan in 2015
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: honkytonk on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 13:30*
Maybe he plans to play him with Cipriani
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: ChequeredJersey on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 15:17*
Based on Jones' injury record at previous training camps, I wouldn't assume that anyone is not going until the tournament starts.

If Youngs doesn't recover or gets crocked in the training camp, Care is gonna end up going.
If one of Shields/Wilson gets injured in training, assuming he's not already going, Robshaw is gonna end up going.
Brown should go anyway, if Jones isn't utterly insane, at least as FB back up, but if Daly or Nowell are injured by the time the team leave the UK then Brown will end up going.
If Mako is confirmed out, I wouldn't be surprised if they beg Marler to return.

We will not be seeing EJ's first choice world cup squad in Japan because there will be injuries
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: ChequeredJersey on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 17:56*
No Brown In the backfield worked... Variably. And as soon as you lose Daly, the back 3 looks even more exposed.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: poorfour on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 18:50*
Eh? England are vulnerable with Daly in the backfield to any team with a decent kickchase, and I am not convinced he will improve fast enough to remove that risk.

Plus, if he gets injured then the total number of international caps at fullback that any other players apart from Brown or Goode have can be counted on one hand.

England had a two year spell with one defeat with Brown in the backfield, followed by a year when the backfield worked fine but the breakdown (and altitude conditioning) lost them game after game.

And all this talk of players like Kvesic being in the mix is just insanity. The build up to the RWC is not the time to suddenly decide that you want to try a player you've ignored for four years - except (as appears to be the case with Heinz) if you're taking a look at your emergency options.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Domestos on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 22:43*
my question is another, eddie jones, is the best coach for england?

What does it mean?
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Monday 17-Jun-2019, 23:33*
What does it mean?

Give her/him a margin for error - he/she is using Google Translate...
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Seequin on Tuesday 18-Jun-2019, 13:54*
If it is true Danny has been axed it is a shame. He is one of the players who could really change a game in the last quarter and England could do with a bit of unpredictability. I don’t think he is a starter but as a squad player offering something different he could be valuable.

Also, it is not as if we are blessed with great 9s. Young’s rarely plays more than two good gamesin a row.
EJ just does not seem to trust flair.

Robshaw is a great player who is undervalued by pundits but probably too slow. I think EJ has probably moved on from Brown.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: maybetomorrow on Tuesday 18-Jun-2019, 18:33*
What does it mean?
the right question, was this: are you sure that Eddie Jones is the right coach for England?
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 19-Jun-2019, 10:06*
Ooohhh Matrono!
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Aha! on Wednesday 19-Jun-2019, 19:07*
Care's role is covered well enough elsewhere so I doubt he'll be going for all the reasons above.

But Corporal Jones can't put out his best 15 for all games and yet will want to avoid banana skins. So I expect the experience and reliability of Robshaw and Broiwn to go as dirt-trackers.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: T-Bone on Wednesday 19-Jun-2019, 20:19*
Chris Jones just tweeted that there'll be an announcement on BBC shortly with England doing away with "swathes of experience"
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Harlequinade on Wednesday 19-Jun-2019, 22:56*
Also Robshaw axed I hear . Marler may be going though!
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: T-Bone on Wednesday 19-Jun-2019, 23:08*
And apparently dombrandt in the training squad. All very odd
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Gone on Thursday 20-Jun-2019, 07:59*
Also Robshaw axed I hear . Marler may be going though!

When you say “you hear” do you mean - as in the piece in the Times that everyone is talking about?
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Boonie on Thursday 20-Jun-2019, 08:49*
From the Beeb: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48697336

England hooker Dylan Hartley is set to miss out on the World Cup after struggling with a knee problem.

Regular captain Hartley led England to back-to-back Six Nations titles in 2016 and 2017 under head coach Eddie Jones, but hasn't played since December.

Jones is also set to shun hundreds of caps worth of experience when he names his first training squad on Thursday.

Scrum-half Danny Care and flanker Chris Robshaw are understood to be among the high-profile omissions.

Thursday's 29-man party will only include players not involved in the Premiership semi-finals, with Harlequins' uncapped forward Alex Dombrandt in line to be named after a strong performance against the Barbarians earlier this month.

With all English-based players given a mandatory rest period of five weeks, those from beaten semi-finalists Gloucester and Northampton will join the camp next week.

Jones then names his final training party, including players from finalists Exeter and Saracens, on 4 July.

Hartley, 33, was an ever-present part of Jones' regime before he missed the tour of South Africa last summer because of concussion.

He has struggled to nail down a regular place since, and has not featured for either club or country in 2019 because of a recurring knee problem.

Although as a Northampton player he was not due to join the camp until the end of the month, it is understood he is not in a fit enough condition to be involved.

Sources close to Hartley say he will continue to rehabilitate his injury in the hope to be fit and available in August, but in reality the odds are now firmly against him making the tournament in Japan.

'Omissions a ****'
Even though they have fallen out of favour of late, Care, 32, and 33-year-old Robshaw's exclusions come as a major surprise and represent a **** from Jones.

Care, England's second-most capped scrum-half with 84 appearances, was a regular part of the squad before being left out of the tour of South Africa in summer 2018.

Despite playing against both the Springboks and New Zealand that autumn, as well as scoring a try against Japan, he was dropped for the match with Australia and did not feature in the last Six Nations.

Gloucester's Willi Heinz, Saracens' Ben Spencer, Wasps' Dan Robson and regular starter Ben Youngs are set to be the scrum-halves called into camp.

Along with Care, another experienced operator in 36-year-old Richard Wigglesworth is also thought to have been overlooked.

Flanker Robshaw was also a squad mainstay before having knee surgery in October and missing the autumn internationals.

The former England skipper has not played for his country since, with Mark Wilson and Brad Shields commandeering the blind-side flanker position.

Meanwhile, Northampton's uncapped back-rower Lewis Ludlam, 23, is understood to have shot into late contention.

Marler considering coming out of retirement
Meanwhile, prop Joe Marler is considering coming out of retirement for the showpiece in Japan.

The 28-year-old, who has 59 caps, announced the end of his international career in September in order to spend more time with his family.

But he is thought to be weighing up a return, and is again a part of England's Elite Playing Squad - which is not made public.

If he decides to make a comeback, Marler would not be named in the training squad until the start of July given he played for the Barbarians against an England XV on 2 June.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Thursday 20-Jun-2019, 09:31*
Shields ahead of Robshaw is just objectively a bad call. But also not surprising.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Quins Head on Thursday 20-Jun-2019, 11:37*
No mention of Brown which is encouraging
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Fearless Fred on Thursday 20-Jun-2019, 12:19*
Browny is in the 29 called up to the camp today.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Gone on Thursday 20-Jun-2019, 12:29*
Browny is in the 29 called up to the camp today.

Given Jones apparent ideas can’t see him making final cut given others can’t go into this camp.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: marlowish on Friday 21-Jun-2019, 15:49*
The print copy of the Boris Johnson fansheet Telegraph reckons that all three of our players who played in the England XV vs the BaaBaas are in the mix as bolters for the RWC squad, Smith and Marchant particularly.
this is not a place to push your own political opinions - no one is interested 
it is an infantile as me saying that the mirror and guardian are fanszheets of a man who flies ti Tunisia to grovel at the grave if a Palestinian terrorist piece of scum
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Friday 21-Jun-2019, 16:19*
this is not a place to push your own political opinions - no one is interested 
it is an infantile as me saying that the mirror and guardian are fanszheets of a man who flies ti Tunisia to grovel at the grave if a Palestinian terrorist piece of scum

Translation: "Don't push your political opinions onto me... Oh, by the way, here's my political opinion..."

The irony.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 21-Jun-2019, 17:06*
BoJo being on the Torygraph payroll is a fact, not an opinion

this is not a place to push your own political opinions - no one is interested 
it is an infantile as me saying that the mirror and guardian are fanszheets of a man who flies ti Tunisia to grovel at the grave if a Palestinian terrorist piece of scum
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Gone on Friday 21-Jun-2019, 20:54*
this is not a place to push your own political opinions - no one is interested 
it is an infantile as me saying that the mirror and guardian are fanszheets of a man who flies ti Tunisia to grovel at the grave if a Palestinian terrorist piece of scum

Oh **** off.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Brown Bottle on Friday 21-Jun-2019, 21:48*
Oh **** off.

Very much so.
Title: Re: *Danny Axed from World Cup*
Post by: Gone on Saturday 22-Jun-2019, 07:29*
Very much so.

I mean...it’s just reached the point where it’s the only reasonable response to the constant faux reactionary nonsense.