ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: never sleep on Tuesday 14-Jan-2020, 10:46*
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https://www.quins.co.uk/news/treatment-table-14-january-2020/
MICHELE CAMPAGNARO, JAMES LANG, WILL EVANS, TOM LAWDAY, GEORGE HEAD AND TRAVIS ISMAIEL HAVE BEEN ADDED TO THE HARLEQUINS INJURY LIST.
Full back / winger Aaron Morris has recovered from an injury sustained earlier this season, whilst hooker Max Crumpton made his return from injury against Bath, however he picked up a hamstring injury in the second half and is set for three months rehabilitation.
Crumpton’s and Morris’ return seemed to offer encouragement, particularly with hookers Rob Buchanan, Scott Baldwin and George Head all carrying long terms injuries. Club Captain Chris Robshaw also picked up a head injury and may require a further week of recovery, therefore is unlikely to be available for selection to face ASM Clermont Auvergne.
Italian centre Michele Campagnaro was injured at Big Game 12 and will be out until next season following knee surgery. Campagnaro’s injury adds to the Club’s injury list in the centres after James Lang had surgery on Christmas eve and joins fellow centres Ben Tapuai and Francis Saili in the hands of the medical department.
Summer signing back rowers Tom Lawday and Will Evans are currently on the sidelines with Evans recovering from a broken jaw and former Exeter Chiefs player Lawday begins the recuperation process after tearing his hamstring against Sale.
South African winger Travis Ismaiel is also set for a spell on the sidelines, having injured his hamstring in a Premiership Rugby Shield fixture against Saracens and is set to be out of action.
Mike Lancaster, Head of Medical Services at Harlequins: ‘’We have had several contact injuries in key positions, which certainly challenges all facets of the rugby department, both players and staff are working hard to rectify our current situation. With regard to Michele, he has applied himself well and we are confident he has the attitude to overcome adversity.
“Likewise, whilst the injury to James Lang was a huge blow to his Six Nations hopes, we have already seen real improvements and hope to see him returning to action mid - late February.”
Head of Rugby Paul Gustard added: “We have had a very difficult few months with long term injuries sustained in the opening rounds of the Gallagher Premiership, which were further compounded by severe injuries to players in the same position in the weeks after.
“We have five senior centres out and four senior hookers injured which is not only freakish but reveals the hidden cost of injury in terms of training pedagogy and numbers.
“To have over 15 players unavailable, with many forming the backbone of our season last year, is disappointing. However, the staff and group we have are confident in the ability that we do have playing and the character that we have to compete on a weekly basis.”
Current Injury List:
Forwards
Rob Buchanan
Scott Baldwin
George Head
Elia Elia
Matt Symons
Max Crumpton
Jack Clifford
Will Evans
Chris Robshaw
Tom Lawday
Backs
James Lang
Ben Tapuai
Francis Saili
Michele Campagnaro
Nathan Earle
Travis Ismaiel
Mike Brown
Not available for selection
Joe Marchant
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Word of the day: Pedagogy
noun: pedagogy; plural noun: pedagogies
the method and practice of teaching, especially as an academic subject or theoretical concept.
"the relationship between applied linguistics and language pedagogy"
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It always seems to be our hookers and centres where injuries hit the deepest - since 2013 I've lost count of the number of players we've had crocked (or even lost to retirement) in those positions.
I wonder why, and what we need to do differently to manage their health better.
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My perception is that Dave Ward was the exception and seemed to be the last man standing and he was even able to fill in as a back row replacement.
Dave seemed to be pretty quick around the park. I wonder whether he spend more time on fitness training rather than strength training and that this is the key.
(I could however be mis-remembering this and be completely wrong however)
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The "good"news is that Symons and Ellia are not mentioned as long term injuries.
No idea if this is true or not, but a friend told me we were after Matt Cornish from Eailing as HK cover. RIL had him linked to Wasps yesterday, but I think that was from next season. I would be looking at Joe Gray as short term cover.
So as it stands we have 2 hookers and 2 FH, unless cover comes in that will be that way for at least another month or so!! I would guess Chishlom and Morris would be the emergency FH in a disaster **
**Im not advocating them as new FH saviours, just that from the players we have available, they have at least played there previously, likewise Lambert at HK.
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That's a truly frightening injury list already, we're not even half way through the season!
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By my reckoning, we have a problem for Saturday's match.
All hookers that are registered other than Jack Musk are injured.
I think that we can register 6 replacements during the competition.
But:
1. we don't have any more that we could register
2. I think we have already used some of our replacements
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I know he is listed as injured, but I think Elia has just been given a break.
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If the club haven’t even replaced Brown, as I don’t include a jack of all trades bang average squad player as adequate replacement.
I wonder if we will see any more names come in. I doubt it
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The little ray of sunshine is back!!!
What makes you doubt anyone will come in?? With regards to Brown being replaced, if you have your 2nd and 3rd choice available (Morris and Chisholm) why would you bring in a replacement?? that is what you have a squad for. Every time a first choice player is injured you expect an injury replacement to be signed?? The situation we find ourselves in with the Hooker now, then yes I would expect a replacement to be being looked at.
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I’m going to go polish my boots, reckon I’ll get a call on Friday night! ;D
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The little ray of sunshine is back!!!
What makes you doubt anyone will come in?? With regards to Brown being replaced, if you have your 2nd and 3rd choice available (Morris and Chisholm) why would you bring in a replacement?? that is what you have a squad for. Every time a first choice player is injured you expect an injury replacement to be signed?? The situation we find ourselves in with the Hooker now, then yes I would expect a replacement to be being looked at.
Chisholm has has far more woeful games than good, Morris has stepped up granted but it’s still a thin position. In any case, we should be covered by insurance so where’s that money going? Same for camp, as in reality it should be a player of a similar quality
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I think due to number of injuries we have, rather than just one signing coming in as injury cover for a specific position, we have signed Penney who is able to cover Wing/FB/Centre. You only have 400k, and with the issues we have it is very likely we might need to bring in another 2/3 players as injury cover, cant really blow our load on one big name.
In general, when was the last "Big" name injury replacement/dispensation anyone singed???
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Chisholm has has far more woeful games than good, Morris has stepped up granted but it’s still a thin position. In any case, we should be covered by insurance so where’s that money going? Same for camp, as in reality it should be a player of a similar quality
I recall at a QUINSSA session, either Conor or Mark Evans saying there was no insurance. There is an allowance that you can spend over the cap to bring in an injury replacement up to the standards of the injured player. However, the club still has to find the money. Presumably this has got to be found and will explain why teams don't just rush to get injury replacements. Or always get in potentially expensive replacements, even if permitted.
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Surely the money is only part of the problem. Where are all the injury replacements actually coming from? Super Rugby is about to start and all clubs in the Northern hemisphere are in the middle of the season - how many spare players are knocking about of Mike Brown's ability?
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re: availability
Plus - not all players in the Champ are going to want to risk their current contracts on temp ones in the Prem.
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Stepping aside from the matter of replacements and squad depth there is a more obvious issue and that is the epidemiology of the injury list as described.
Contact injuries, such as head and knee injuries sustained on the field of play are difficult to mitigate against.
However the hamstring tears, sustained by Crumpton, Ismaiel and Evans (and possibly others) suggests an issue with fitness, preparation and conditioning. Athletes are susceptible to hamstring injuries but these are mitigated against through balanced preseason and ongoing training.
Contributing reasons for tears include: Inadequate warm up; Dehydration; Lack of flexibility; Imbalance between quad and hamstring muscle group balance (e.g over strengthening the quads through repetitive weight training); Fatigue and previous hamstring or lower limb injury. Each of these is a 'causative agent' and the risk of injury increases with the number of causes being accommodated.
Elsewhere someone expressed surprise that Crumpton was still playing late into the 2nd half. His subsequent hamstring injury suggests he was clearly in the red zone on several of the contributing reasons for such an injury. So was this bad luck (chance?) or a lack of attention to biometric detail?
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Word of the day : epidemiology
noun
the branch of medicine which deals with the incidence, distribution, and possible control of diseases and other factors relating to health.
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Not sure any prep or conditioning could have prevented Crumptons injury. The video on his Instagram shows his leg being bent underneath a Baths player body as the Bath player croc rolls him in a ruck
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Word of the day : epidemiology
noun
the branch of medicine which deals with the incidence, distribution, and possible control of diseases and other factors relating to health.
antidisestablishmentarianism
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Hi! First time poster!
I am a recent quins fans due to the signing of Travis Ismael. I am a saffa and big bulls supporter (travis' previous team).
I must say I am disappointed to see that he has not got over his injury issues. This is his second hamstring injury at quins (during his short spell) and probably his 5th in the last two seasons.
I believe Travis can definitely do a job if he gets over his injuries as he really has potential. I am just worried about his age as he is almost 28 years old and supposed to be in his prime and no longer just potential.
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Hi! First time poster!
I am a recent quins fans due to the signing of Travis Ismael. I am a saffa and big bulls supporter (travis' previous team).
I must say I am disappointed to see that he has not got over his injury issues. This is his second hamstring injury at quins (during his short spell) and probably his 5th in the last two seasons.
I believe Travis can definitely do a job if he gets over his injuries as he really has potential. I am just worried about his age as he is almost 28 years old and supposed to be in his prime and no longer just potential.
Hello , welcome to the Quins rollercoaster.... we were all hoping Travis would do a good job , hes a big guy with plenty of speed , so fingers crossed he still can .
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"This is not only freakish, but reveals the hidden cost of injury in terms of training pedagogy and numbers," head of rugby Paul Gustard said.
What does this actually mean? I am asking in all seriousness.
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"This is not only freakish, but reveals the hidden cost of injury in terms of training pedagogy and numbers," head of rugby Paul Gustard said.
What does this actually mean? I am asking in all seriousness.
The second part is obvious and I'm sure you know that to train properly the squad need sufficient numbers to have an effective squad session, especially for set piece, moves and structured actions such as lineout maul defence. There has to be enough players of reasonably similar ability to form two scrummage eights and similarly in the backs.
The first part , the 'pedagogy' is more jargonny. Pedagogy is the science of education techniques and delivery in simplistic terms. By having limited numbers then the range of training drills and options, I.e. the pedagogy, are also limited. For example to devise a new and hopefully better way of defending a line out maul will need the coaching staff to develop a number of options which they will need to test in a live situation during training with full sets of forwards, and spares to minimise injuries and maximise recovery. They will then assess which Is the best option, then coach the players to use it. Again the two sets of forwards need to be reasonably similar in ability and build. No use testing out with the U18S or Academy against the senior team.
Does that help at all? Sorry if it's a bit confused
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"This is not only freakish, but reveals the hidden cost of injury in terms of training pedagogy and numbers," head of rugby Paul Gustard said.
What does this actually mean? I am asking in all seriousness.
It means they don’t have a critical mass of players for effective training.
For example, there are 8 forwards in a scrum, so to practise scrummaging, Gustard needs 16 players, with 8 on each side. If he doesn’t have this number then he can’t practise scrummage effectively.
A possible solution (and one I think John Kingston used) is to practise with a Championship team.
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It's not sustainable to be ravaged by injury season after season. It can't all be down to luck.
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It's not sustainable to be ravaged by injury season after season. It can't all be down to luck.
While I feel very sorry for them, and I think they've both been really goof for us when they have played, so not calling them bad signings, Crumpton and Campagnaro have both got history / reputation as being injury prone. quite a few posters said it was a gamble signing them. I guess you could say that while it's bad luck each time for the players, maybe a mix of bad luck and bad planning / gamble by the club.
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Salary Cap pressure would mean that you are more prepared to take a risk on a quality but injury prone player. I imagine the contracts might reflect this in some way.
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I'm beginning to believe we're simply spending too much on the old stars: Brown, Care, Robshaw, Marler. Individually they often show their worth (some more than others!) but as a collective we're not getting value for money and I expect it's a _lot_ of money.
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I'm beginning to believe we're simply spending too much on the old stars: Brown, Care, Robshaw, Marler. Individually they often show their worth (some more than others!) but as a collective we're not getting value for money and I expect it's a _lot_ of money.
Ive said this for a While now. Would not put Marler in that bracket but others yes.
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Ive said this for a While now. Would not put Marler in that bracket but others yes.
Me too - I'd also certainly exclude Marler (except for those silly yellow cards); Browny I'd keep too, but Care and Robshaw's days are numbered and need "managing".
Need a quality SH for the future, though.
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DAre i say it, I even thought we held on to a few others for too long...Nev, Ugo (guessing they were also on big bucks)
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Yes I can't imagine that Care and Robshaw are cheap, neither is quite the force they were, it will be interesting to see how MB15 comes back, he will have been out for a long time...
Marler is still one of the best LH in the country, I'd not want to see him go. I would though like to see less brain fart Yellow cards...
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Me too - I'd also certainly exclude Marler (except for those silly yellow cards); Browny I'd keep too, but Care and Robshaw's days are numbered and need "managing".
Need a quality SH for the future, though.
Marler is probably better for England than for Quins, and has been dumb for us too often. Still a fine player who I very much want at the club, but he is going to be on a lot of money and are we getting value for money?
Brown has been an absolute hero for Quins but in the last few years he's spent a lot of time either injured or playing very, very poorly.
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It's a bit of a guessing game though. Haskell at Saints was on the same as he earned at Wasps as a 21 year old. I appreciate he had injury worries when he moved to Saints but I was reading elsewhere recently about how players' wages tend to drop down to very low levels as they extend their careers well into their 30s. I expect it's a steady drop as well, rather than say going from 250k one year to 50k the next. I suppose I'm wondering if players like Brown, Care and Robshaw are already on smaller wages than previously.
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its only a rumour but it goes - Robshaw is on 330k, Quins would like him to drop to around 200k for a new deal
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It's a bit of a guessing game though. Haskell at Saints was on the same as he earned at Wasps as a 21 year old. I appreciate he had injury worries when he moved to Saints but I was reading elsewhere recently about how players' wages tend to drop down to very low levels as they extend their careers well into their 30s. I expect it's a steady drop as well, rather than say going from 250k one year to 50k the next. I suppose I'm wondering if players like Brown, Care and Robshaw are already on smaller wages than previously.
Haskell was clearly at the end of the road and was done as an international - I can't imagine the current deals for Brown, Care and Robshaw are in the "obviously post international" bracket yet.
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Marler is probably better for England than for Quins, and has been dumb for us too often. Still a fine player who I very much want at the club, but he is going to be on a lot of money and are we getting value for money?
Brown has been an absolute hero for Quins but in the last few years he's spent a lot of time either injured or playing very, very poorly.
Do you think he's better for England because of those behind him or do you regard it as a motivational thing? I think/hope he'll continue to improve his play/attitude: I'd pay for him until he wants out or he runs out of gas.
Perhaps Brown will be rejuvenated after a long layoff - he may have been below his standards in the last few seasons, but if the rest of the squad can start to play to their potential, I think he'll have the desire to continue as I can't see him going anywhere else.
If Brown's wages can be managed downwards and Marler can be persuaded to be cool, then we'll get value for money from them, I suspect. But I don't think Marler needs to be faced with a wage downgrade for a number of years yet - he's still 29 (30 this summer), so a good 3-5 years left on his card, at a time when props are supposed to be at their best.
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Maybe not but their next ones surely will be, assuming they stay.
Re: Honky's post - 200k seems like a lot of salary for this stage of Robshaw's career.
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I must stress it was only a rumour
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Well we know which club we can thank for the general trend in wages.
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Maybe not but their next ones surely will be, assuming they stay.
Re: Honky's post - 200k seems like a lot of salary for this stage of Robshaw's career.
Former club captain, former England captain, recent international... I doubt his wages dropped that quickly.
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Current club captain!
He'll be 34 when his new contract starts - I'd say 200k is a damn good wage for a player his age despite his track record.
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I think 200k is very low for a player with his record, club history, international history, and recent status. Incredibly low.
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That was my point in an above post - it was surprising to hear someone (an ex-player I think) say that older players' salaries are nothing like we'd imagine, to the point where they can end up back on a similar wage to when they were recent academy graduates.
Besides that, I just don't think it's prudent to pay a player who's well past his prime based on his prior achievements and record.
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I agree that older players salaries are lower, but Robshaw is a different story. There's very few players with his record, his caps, his captain history, etc. I wouldn't expect Brown to be on his money, or Care.
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I'd say Robshaw is still great value and gives as much as any player on the pitch. Brown was playing well last season, but it remains to be seen if he can maintain that post injury. Care, sadly, seems to have fallen off a cliff.
On the subject of Robshaw, it was a rare occurrence that he went off injured. How often has that happened? For a player who's always in the thick of the action, he's been incredibly resilient.
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Robshaw is worth his salary, but I think Brown will struggle coming back after this season and on that high end money it’s not worth it and id look to bring a new FIRST choice fullback over the summer Quins law dictates if we don’t, Brown probably will re-aggravate his injury and we go round in a circle again.
Care is the one that saddens me the most in his decline. It’s almost like once he knew the WC ship had sailed he had no real motivation left. Despite his advancing years I was hoping more of an Andy Gomarsall type showing with all that experience and class being apparent but instead his kicking game has fallen apart and as usual spends most of his time at Rucks with his arms out moaning
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I'd say Robshaw is still great value and gives as much as any player on the pitch. Brown was playing well last season, but it remains to be seen if he can maintain that post injury. Care, sadly, seems to have fallen off a cliff.
On the subject of Robshaw, it was a rare occurrence that he went off injured. How often has that happened? For a player who's always in the thick of the action, he's been incredibly resilient.
He's had a few injuries in the last few seasons, and this is the first season where he's actually played poorly reasonably often.
There's absolutely no way he wasn't considered one of the most important players in the entire squad at the start of the season. He'll be on a wedge, no doubt.
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No wonder Robshaw is struggling for form. His spare keeps going off and playing Captain America!
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Robshaw went through a couple of lengthy injuries early on in his career. I get the feeling that because the club stuck by him then when it would've been easy to offload him as he hadn't become the big name he is now, he feels loyalty to the club & has turned down offers in the past that may have meant better money.