Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 17:50*
Match being shown live on Ch 4.
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 18:39*
Post by: Mayor West on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 18:41*
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 18:46*
Post by: A222Quin on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 18:59*
Post by: T-Bone on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 19:00*
Not at all to take away though from a great Exeter performance and season
Post by: Banstead Quin on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 19:02*
Post by: baggie on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 19:44*
Congrats to Exeter ... fantastic achievement ... Exeter’s man of the match was Finn Russell ... a man who has started to believe his own publicity ... directly responsible for 2 Exeter tries in the 2nd half
Think about how this weekend has demonstrated what a nonsense “ring fencing” is ... Bristol & Exeter have just won the 2 European trophies ... 10 years ago they were both in the Championship
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 20:35*
Please explain to me what Maunder & Hidalgo-Clyde did to influence that result ... they just happened to be there ... that is a lesson for life and sport ... “right place, right time”
Congrats to Exeter ... fantastic achievement ... Exeter’s man of the match was Finn Russell ... a man who has started to believe his own publicity ... directly responsible for 2 Exeter tries in the 2nd half
The match winning turnover in the dying minutes.
Think about how this weekend has demonstrated what a nonsense “ring fencing” is ... Bristol & Exeter have just won the 2 European trophies ... 10 years ago they were both in the Championship
The crucial turnover in the dying minutes of the game.
Post by: JammyGit on Saturday 17-Oct-2020, 22:07*
Think about how this weekend has demonstrated what a nonsense “ring fencing” is ... Bristol & Exeter have just won the 2 European trophies ... 10 years ago they were both in the Championship
Yeah? OK.
(Looks at Leeds, Bedford, London Welsh, etc)
Bristol were a temporarily embarrassed big club. Exeter had the South West at their mercy and grew the team over a period of years to get into the Premiership. Both had stadia and fans.
They're really rare breeds and there's no obvious analogues for them in the Championship. Ring-fencing doesn't have to be in perpetuity, but the Premiership is putting actual proper teams with proper crowds and proper grounds in financial difficulties, let alone the minnows in the lower tiers.
Post by: RocQuin on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 08:29*
My viewing was irritated by the massive banners of the cheating previous cup holders in the stands opposite the cameras, surely that was not necessary.
Post by: Domestos on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 09:55*
My viewing was irritated by the massive banners of the cheating previous cup holders in the stands opposite the cameras, surely that was not necessary.
I didn't see those banners to which you refer, but do you think that just for once you could stop droning on, and on, and on about blasted Saracens?!
Post by: honkytonk on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 10:10*
And well done to Maunder and Hidalgo-Clyne. Two scrum halves who many on here thought weren't good enough to be back ups to Care. You are now European champions.
Re SHC, I thought it was more a case that we already had two SH signed up, and there was no way he was going to hang around as 3rd choice for us. I would have happily kept him but do not blame him for not staying (or the club not offering him a deal).
Post by: toast on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 12:37*
Exeter deserved this and will hopefully complete a double next weekend - Well run club, supportive owner, friendly and passionate supporters, with great playing and coaching teams!
Post by: SiB on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 12:59*
Could have gone either way but well done Chiefs
Also does go to show that you can spend up to UK salary cap nd compete at the top table
Post by: RocQuin on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 15:24*
I didn't see those banners to which you refer, but do you think that just for once you could stop droning on, and on, and on about blasted Saracens?!No, because they have still got those trophies and titles with their tarnished name against them. Obviously the trophies cannot be awarded retrospectively, but something like when Lance Armstrong was stripped of titles gained by cheating would be better in the history books, rather than allow cheats to go down in history as the best club ever etc etc.
Post by: Banstead Quin on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 16:21*
I wasn't saying that the club got rid of them just pointing out that some on here underrate players who go on and win things elsewhere.
Anyway, well done to them and the Chiefs.
Post by: Yareet on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 20:38*
No, because they have still got those trophies and titles with their tarnished name against them. Obviously the trophies cannot be awarded retrospectively, but something like when Lance Armstrong was stripped of titles gained by cheating would be better in the history books, rather than allow cheats to go down in history as the best club ever etc etc.
So which EPCR rule did they break?
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 20:59*
Ring-fencing doesn't have to be in perpetuity, but the Premiership is putting actual proper teams with proper crowds and proper grounds in financial difficulties, let alone the minnows in the lower tiers.
Out of interest, how would you see the Premiership/clubs/players overcome this scenario?
Post by: T-Bone on Sunday 18-Oct-2020, 21:11*
SHC did pretty well in the few games he played for us. A few decent performances, and I think a couple of average / poor ones. I'd happily have kept him on but I don't think it was ever on the cards. I'm pleased to see he seems settled and is doing well for them. We've done pretty well with Steele I reckon - just Llandajo who's a bit disappointing.
Anyway, good to see two English teams doing well in Europe. Bristol I'd say are less of feel good story. They've largely just thrown money at it. I know they've found some gems along the way, but they've also to a certain extent bought in a team. Their social media guy annoys me too, as does the fawning over them by the likes of Flatman & Co. Having said that, they play some really attractive rugby - I'd love to see us put in performances like that on a regular basis.
It'll be interesting to see what that performance does for Russell's Lions chances. I'm sure he'll go, and I think Sexton should and will miss out. Russell, Farrell and Biggar seems likely. With players like Russell and Cipriani, when it comes off it looks great and it seems they can single-handedly win a game. On the other hand, when it goes wrong, they can more or less lose a game on their own too. That's why I like players like Ford, Smith and Simmonds - they have the ability to create something special but don't tend to regularly go for the really high risk plays. They're a happy medium between the likes of Russell/Cirpiani and Farrell/Biggar.
Post by: Banstead Quin on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 09:50*
A more maverick 10, however, might be better against the Boks as they showed in the RWC final that a structured game plan can be easily nullified.
That said, you can't throw intercepts at that level. Looking forward to the Lions debates in the new year.
Post by: Neil Quinnock on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 11:08*
I can't say I really remember people on here saying that Maunder wasn't good enough, but then I don't really remember him being talked of as a possibility.Pretty much agree with all of this. I think Joe Simmonds should be a serious contender to start at fly half for England this Autumn after his performances in the last few weeks. A 10-12-13 of Simmonds/Farrell/Slade would be exciting. Sam Simmonds must also be in the mix for a back-row start, but where you fit him in I'm not sure. A Willis/Underhill/Simmonds back row would be pretty destructive with Dombrandt on the bench ? I'm not convinced Vunipola or Curry (either) make the starting team on current form.
SHC did pretty well in the few games he played for us. A few decent performances, and I think a couple of average / poor ones. I'd happily have kept him on but I don't think it was ever on the cards. I'm pleased to see he seems settled and is doing well for them. We've done pretty well with Steele I reckon - just Llandajo who's a bit disappointing.
Anyway, good to see two English teams doing well in Europe. Bristol I'd say are less of feel good story. They've largely just thrown money at it. I know they've found some gems along the way, but they've also to a certain extent bought in a team. Their social media guy annoys me too, as does the fawning over them by the likes of Flatman & Co. Having said that, they play some really attractive rugby - I'd love to see us put in performances like that on a regular basis.
It'll be interesting to see what that performance does for Russell's Lions chances. I'm sure he'll go, and I think Sexton should and will miss out. Russell, Farrell and Biggar seems likely. With players like Russell and Cipriani, when it comes off it looks great and it seems they can single-handedly win a game. On the other hand, when it goes wrong, they can more or less lose a game on their own too. That's why I like players like Ford, Smith and Simmonds - they have the ability to create something special but don't tend to regularly go for the really high risk plays. They're a happy medium between the likes of Russell/Cirpiani and Farrell/Biggar.
Post by: Yareet on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 13:11*
Pretty much agree with all of this. I think Joe Simmonds should be a serious contender to start at fly half for England this Autumn after his performances in the last few weeks. A 10-12-13 of Simmonds/Farrell/Slade would be exciting. Sam Simmonds must also be in the mix for a back-row start, but where you fit him in I'm not sure. A Willis/Underhill/Simmonds back row would be pretty destructive with Dombrandt on the bench ? I'm not convinced Vunipola or Curry (either) make the starting team on current form.
Curry would start on form for me. But not that Curry.
Unfortunately Ben's injured
Post by: raedarius on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 13:27*
Post by: JammyGit on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 14:14*
So which EPCR rule did they break?
Qualification rules.
Post by: JammyGit on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 14:15*
Out of interest, how would you see the Premiership/clubs/players overcome this scenario?
Now? I'm really not sure. Ringfencing makes sense. An upper cap on wages per player to go with the salary cap. But COVID could genuinely turn the whole thing inside out; these are not healthy businesses.
Post by: Yareet on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 15:11*
Qualification rules.
Not really given that qualification is based on league positions.
It’s not EPCR’s place to overrule leagues’ disciplinary decisions.
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 15:43*
Now? I'm really not sure. Ringfencing makes sense. An upper cap on wages per player to go with the salary cap. But COVID could genuinely turn the whole thing inside out; these are not healthy businesses.
As a comparison, this is a bit cats and dogs, but in terms of average match attendances, the Premiership rugby has a similar number to an amalgam of Championship and League 1 football ~ 18,500-5,000 (rounding up). Of course, football leagues are larger and play many more games in the upper/mid level leagues, to which we compare on attendances.
* The average (Football) Championship wage is a staggering £29,000/week or £1.5m/year (highest is £68,000/week or £35m/year.
* The average wage for a League 1 player equates to about £4,750/week or ~ £250,000/year - without bonuses,
* For League 2, the average wages are £2,200/week or £115,000/year.
(888.sport.com and https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/leaked-report-reveals-how-much-18169396)
What is average wage for Premiership rugby player? Would that increase if the league were fully/partially ring fenced?
Prior to COVID (game changer all round), how many Football clubs were/are still in a precarious position?
How do football clubs stay solvent and rugby clubs constantly miss profits (except Exeter and, occasionally, Saints)?
Simple comparison, I know, but rugby still has plenty to learn, it seems.
Post by: Domestos on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 16:35*
What is average wage for Premiership rugby player? Would that increase if the league were fully/partially ring fenced?
On the assumption that is not a rhetorical question.
Harlequins list 43 players in the senior squad, according to the website. i don't think Academy players are counted - are they?
43 players less 3 marquee players equals 40. Divide that into seven million pounds, is it? Equals £175,000, but there must be a wide variance between the top earners and the low end.
Not bad earnings, but not exactly untold wealth.
If my calculations are up the creek, someone will tell me, I am sure.
Post by: Mayor West on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 17:01*
Post by: JammyGit on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 17:56*
Not really given that qualification is based on league positions.
It’s not EPCR’s place to overrule leagues’ disciplinary decisions.
You mean league position that they got by cheating?
There's really no mileage in suggesting that Saracens' cheating didn't affect their European qualification or seeding.
Post by: MadMax on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 19:17*
You mean league position that they got by cheating?
There's really no mileage in suggesting that Saracens' cheating didn't affect their European qualification or seeding.
Exactly. It's just amazing how many people can't (or don't want to) see that.
Post by: JammyGit on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 21:57*
Puts it into perspective. If they were truly legal they'd be mediocre, like us :)
Post by: JammyGit on Monday 19-Oct-2020, 21:58*
Prior to COVID (game changer all round), how many Football clubs were/are still in a precarious position?
I think a fair few? Certainly I recall teams in danger of going bust last season outside of the top flight.
Quote
How do football clubs stay solvent and rugby clubs constantly miss profits (except Exeter and, occasionally, Saints)?
Massive sponsorship and TV deals. Rugby doesn't have the same appeal as football.
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 09:53*
Post by: Yareet on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 12:35*
You mean league position that they got by cheating?
There's really no mileage in suggesting that Saracens' cheating didn't affect their European qualification or seeding.
I’d argue that there’s an equally insignificant level of mileage in suggesting that EPCR would ever overrule any of the leagues regarding which teams have qualified.
For clarity, I’m not for one second suggesting that Sarries didn’t cheat. Nor that their cheating didn’t improve their position.
However, whatever we would like to have happened at the time, there were seen by the Premiership as a team that had qualified for the Champions Cup.
Once they were accepted by EPCR as a qualified team, Sarries have (to the best of my knowledge) not broken any of the rules of the European competition.
Post by: never sleep on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 13:10*
I’d argue that there’s an equally insignificant level of mileage in suggesting that EPCR would ever overrule any of the leagues regarding which teams have qualified.Wow Yareet - I have read this sentence a few times now and there isn't much clarity :-)
Are you saying that there’s an unequally significant level of mileage in suggesting that EPCR would be better not to ever overrule any of the leagues regarding which teams have qualified?
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 14:35*
I don’t think you can compare football with rugby as the squad sizes are different. I’m not fully sure of football squads but I would think that 30/35 would be the number on the payroll. Rugby squads will be ten or so higher so less money has to go round more People. Rugby’s problem is that not enough people are watching or paying to watch it to cover the costs. The economics are that costs need cutting. The fact that wages are higher than most clubs can sustain without wealthy owners putting extra money in shows how fine the balance is. I believe that in the EFL you have to run your clubs finances without losses being incurred. It’s apples and pears.
I started my reply to JG with "...its a bit dogs and cats" and finished it with "its a simple comparison": I know its not the same, but there are similarities.
Using average salaries takes out the squad size differences.
The number of games played is the main difference that I can see: we get ~ 30-odd games a season with cups before knock out stage; Football Championship, Leagues 1 & 2 play 46 games before any knockout cup games: that's roughly 40-50% more then a Premiership rugby side - that would surely make a difference, provided you can keep the attendances high - to the P/L line in a club's annual accounts.
But that is not a likely scenario in rugby, unless you get bigger squads with more depth, which then increases the salary payments even further...
Perhaps if you made rugby union a 12 man game - no back row - same size pitch and 5 subs, 30 minutes each way. Faster, more tries as more space, greater entertainment...(holds head in hands/shame and waits for neutron bomb to detonate in NE Surrey area...)
;) :o ??? :P :-\ :D
Post by: Saintquin on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 14:46*
I’d argue that there’s an equally insignificant level of mileage in suggesting that EPCR would ever overrule any of the leagues regarding which teams have qualified.If they abided by the laws in the country which they play, they may not have even been in that competition. Think that is the reason we can say they cheated to win it.
For clarity, I’m not for one second suggesting that Sarries didn’t cheat. Nor that their cheating didn’t improve their position.
However, whatever we would like to have happened at the time, there were seen by the Premiership as a team that had qualified for the Champions Cup.
Once they were accepted by EPCR as a qualified team, Sarries have (to the best of my knowledge) not broken any of the rules of the European competition.
Though we will never know what would have happened if they didn't cheat
Post by: Yareet on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 16:05*
Wow Yareet - I have read this sentence a few times now and there isn't much clarity :-)
Are you saying that there’s an unequally significant level of mileage in suggesting that EPCR would be better not to ever overrule any of the leagues regarding which teams have qualified?
Never use one word when 15 will suffice! 🤣
I’m saying EPCR are unlikely to overrule a league as to who has qualified.
If Prem Rugby say a team has qualified, EPCR will always agree with this decision.
By saying that qualification is based on the position achieved in another competition, EPCR absolve themselves of responsibility for deciding who has qualified.
Which throws up a side question for next season’s Champions Cup.
If the top two seeds from England are the finalists and Wasps have to withdraw from this weekend’s game, who is the second English seed? Do Bristol become one of the top 2 seeds? It would appear so because of Prem Rugby, not EPCR rules.
Back to the Sarries question, one factor which Exeter’s win has removed is the Sarries (fans’) claim that they needed an illegal squad to compete in Europe.
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 17:35*
Post by: Brown Bottle on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 17:46*
I would expect that EPCR will keep Wasps as one of the Tier 1 seeds. After all, they have already made it to the final, hence are going to finish either 1st or 2nd. Bristol are defeated SF-ists, so will be classed as a Tier 2 seed even if they pay in the final. As for the final itself, *if* Bristol have to replace Wasps, I hope that they don't put the trophy & title on the outcome. Bristol were well beaten by Wasps. Sure, have a "final" as the end of season bash, but Exeter should be crowned as Champions if Wasps are unable to participate.
I'm not sure that works. AFAIK if Bristol replace Wasps they will be contending for the Premiership. However, is the seeding done including the play-offs or just on league position anyway?
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 18:12*
Post by: Mayor West on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 18:29*
I started my reply to JG with "...its a bit dogs and cats" and finished it with "its a simple comparison": I know its not the same, but there are similarities.
Using average salaries takes out the squad size differences.
The number of games played is the main difference that I can see: we get ~ 30-odd games a season with cups before knock out stage; Football Championship, Leagues 1 & 2 play 46 games before any knockout cup games: that's roughly 40-50% more then a Premiership rugby side - that would surely make a difference, provided you can keep the attendances high - to the P/L line in a club's annual accounts.
But that is not a likely scenario in rugby, unless you get bigger squads with more depth, which then increases the salary payments even further...
Perhaps if you made rugby union a 12 man game - no back row - same size pitch and 5 subs, 30 minutes each way. Faster, more tries as more space, greater entertainment...(holds head in hands/shame and waits for neutron bomb to detonate in NE Surrey area...)
;) :o ??? :P :-\ :D
Call it 13 a side, 40mins each way and I think you’ve got a deal. Up north anyway.
Post by: Yareet on Tuesday 20-Oct-2020, 18:56*
Actually, I think you may be right and wrong! IIRC, the winner of the Premiership is usually classed as top seed from their competition, but the rest end up based on the table. So, if Bristol were to win, they could be in Tier 1, but if they lose, they's remain in Tier 2.
The rules I saw had the 1st and 2nd seed as the league winner and the beaten finalist respectively
Post by: Fearless Fred on Wednesday 21-Oct-2020, 09:18*
Post by: MadMax on Wednesday 21-Oct-2020, 12:09*
well, it's all moot now anyway, as Wasps have been given the all clear to play in the final.
Hopefully mute as well :)
Post by: Saintquin on Wednesday 21-Oct-2020, 14:53*
well, it's all moot now anyway, as Wasps have been given the all clear to play in the final.I'm really please they're good to go ahead as they've earned the right to play in the final.
Now I just hope Exeter stuff them out of sight!
Post by: Boonie on Friday 23-Oct-2020, 11:14*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54658504