ComeAllWithin

Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: Quaking Quin on Monday 17-Sep-2018, 21:33*

Title: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quaking Quin on Monday 17-Sep-2018, 21:33*
Round 4 of the premiership and Quins face a season-defining match against Bristol.

Lose - then Quins are clearly relegation fodder.

Win - then it's squeaky bum time until 23rd November and the away game with Wuzz.

May the force (or balls) be with our HoR.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Monday 17-Sep-2018, 21:48*
Cheer up.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: SiB on Monday 17-Sep-2018, 22:12*
I do love the Glass half full approach
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quins Head on Monday 17-Sep-2018, 22:58*
What a load of Bs
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quaking Quin on Monday 17-Sep-2018, 23:31*
Neither 'glass half full' or 'B****s' - just a realist.

One thing for certain is that both Bristol and Wuzz will be taking Quins as must-win games.

 
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 00:54*
I can see Quins losing the next 3 games quite easily based on what we've seen so far this season. Relegation fodder might not be that unrealistic.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: honkytonk on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 08:21*
At some point in the season (For the past few years) there have been people saying "cant see us getting anything from our next xx games, we are poor etc"  next game or so we then go and win!!!  Lets hope that happens.  Worcs, Bristol, Saints, Sale, Bath, Newcastle and us are all in the relegation mix.  Still cant see past Worcs for the drop.  Ours was never a quick fix but I have seen enough to show me that we will be fine (and depending on how quickly we move under Gustard 6th is an outside chance).  It is a big game for us this weekend in the fact that we have lost our last two but there has been positives in both defeats.  When we have got ball in hand and attacked we look dangerous.  Defence is looking more solid.  Despite not being at our best we have been in both games right up until the final play.  I think we have shown some character and desire which is always a good sign.  It looks to me as though the players are buying into what is being asked (which I don't think you can say was true of the last few years). 

Id say Gustard has some big decisions to make this week re his team. The "game changers" have performed well when they came on.  Marler, South, Bothma, Lang, Mulchrone and Laskie have all played well when on. 

AS said before, I am much more contented than I was in recent times being a Quins fan
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 08:25*
I'm pretty sure "clearly relegation fodder" after 4 matches is a bit silly.

Anyway, here's to enjoying the season eh?
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Everyones a Quinner on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 08:34*
I know its said every year but this year looks like it will throw a good few suprises and Im expected the unexpected, shock results will be common for all teams this year I think. So am not worrying myself based on a couple of games in
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Bucksquin on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 08:46*
I can see Lang starting this week, based on Marcus' struggling performance last week and Lang's first-rate performance the last two weeks. Marcus would be a potential game-changer against a tiring defence, as is (clearly) Lasike. You heard it here first. 
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: DOK on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 08:56*
If things go to plan, as the season goes on we finally learn how to defend. At the moment we know the theory but it's not second nature. It's like when you learn to drive and your brain is overloaded trying to remember everything. In the end much of it becomes second nature and doesn't require conscious thought.

Based on improved defence, our attack starts to function properly and stops breaking down as soon as we're in the oppo's 22. Then we'll start to beat teams that last season we didn't have a hope against. So although it looks rocky right now, it's all going to be plain sailing after Xmas. Exactly the opposite of last year. You believe me, don't you?
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 08:56*
I can see Lang starting this week, based on Marcus' struggling performance last week and Lang's first-rate performance the last two weeks. Marcus would be a potential game-changer against a tiring defence, as is (clearly) Lasike. You heard it here first.

I banged on about the same thing in the pub, Lang was very good, Marcus was trying too hard again, his kicks were snatched and he put himself under too much pressure.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: poorfour on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 09:03*
I can see Lang starting this week, based on Marcus' struggling performance last week and Lang's first-rate performance the last two weeks. Marcus would be a potential game-changer against a tiring defence, as is (clearly) Lasike. You heard it here first. 

I like that; Marcus seems to go best when he has a couple of big carriers to pop the ball to.

So far, I'd say Marler, Elia, Collier, Baby Chis, Robshaw, Wallace, Tapuai, Marchant, Earle and Morris have all done enough to be automatic picks if fit, though a fit Sinck could force his way in. That's a pretty decent spine to the team. Having Horwill back will make a big difference, I think, and I wonder how much we are missing Brown.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 09:03*
Assuming he's fit, Marler to start on Saturday. I'd start Lang and Mulchrone, Smith & DC on the bench.
While I'd like to see Bothma start, Chis minor has played well & I can't see him being dropped. Robbo if fit is one of the first names on the teamsheet, and I don't think we would have a back row of Bothma, Chis & Robbo. There's too much "sameness" in that combination.
Centres I'm happy with whoever Gussie picks (and that's the official spelling from the program of Gustard's nickname, so I'm staying with it!). Walker I think needs to drop to the bench, & have Ibitoye startimg. Walker's looked off his game so far. Ibitoye offers the same speed, but more weight in both attack & defence.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: honkytonk on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 09:15*
If Walker drops out the starting 15 id leave him out the squad.  Im liking Laskie on the bench. 
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: marlowish on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 09:41*
I cannot see how anyone think we will not be involved in relegation.

If we lose to Briz we are in trouble - if we play like we did last week we will struggle to beat anyone
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: DOK on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 09:45*
very true, but we played all 80 minutes and were close to catching them last week. I see a different spirit in the team from the end of last season.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 09:51*
I cannot see how anyone think we will not be involved in relegation.

If we lose to Briz we are in trouble - if we play like we did last week we will struggle to beat anyone

Well I don't think we will - our defence showed clear signs of improvement in the first two games, we had a massive screw up in the first 40 mins at the weekend.

We've got some players who are really stepping up -- Morris, Tapuai, Lasike, Chisholm, Bothma, Elia, Lang, etc.

And we've got more to come back from injury.

Team spirit clearly changed -- we'd never have fought back last season.

Change takes time but you can see how the side can be good. That hasn't been clear for three years.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 11:07*
That different spirit we've seen already appears to be on the wane. Sure they fought hard for the last 10 minutes but they did that many times last season. The game against Bath was virtually identical to last season's typical game - play like jessies, defend pathetically, concede a stack of tries, then fight back when it's too late and the opposition have taken their foot off the gas.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: T-Bone on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 14:02*
Not sure what Wallace has done to be first choiuce really.

Agree though that it would be good to see Lang get a start, maybe Mulchrone too. I'd probably swap Walker for Ibitoye too.

We're crying out for a decent second row partnership. I've been pretty underwhelmed by Symons so far, but very early doors.

Lambert really looked like he was struggling on Saturday. I love the guy but think time is catching up with him, so it'd be good to get Boyce back.

I'm not sure who I'd have in the back row. Robshaw and Chisholm, but then no-one is making a great case for themselves. It would be so good if Clifford could come back, stay fit and regain his old form
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 14:19*
Not sure what Wallace has done to be first choiuce really.

Agree though that it would be good to see Lang get a start, maybe Mulchrone too. I'd probably swap Walker for Ibitoye too.

We're crying out for a decent second row partnership. I've been pretty underwhelmed by Symons so far, but very early doors.

Lambert really looked like he was struggling on Saturday. I love the guy but think time is catching up with him, so it'd be good to get Boyce back.

I'm not sure who I'd have in the back row. Robshaw and Chisholm, but then no-one is making a great case for themselves. It would be so good if Clifford could come back, stay fit and regain his old form

Lambert has had a very bad start to the season, mullered two weeks in a row and hauled off on Saturday - we won the scrum once Joe was on.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: RodneyRegis on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 16:50*
Yes, Mark is struggling I think.

Wallace picks up a couple of turnovers but is otherwise pretty ineffectual. His attempted tack for Fiji Joe's try was woeful.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Chipstead Quin on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 17:07*
I think the attitude has been good and defence tons better , my main area of concern was that both Saints and Bath hit hard down Charlie Walkers channel . Marcus bailed him out a couple of times against Saints and Wallace and Marchant likewise last weekend .

He seems exposed in defence , for all his good work ball in hand

Mike Brown covered the wing well against Sale and Earle looks fine on the other side , but with MB out Im not sure who is more solid ?

Ibitoye is the obvious choice but Im not convinced his defence is great , Visser and Alofa haven't troubled the selectors .. I wonder if Semi Kunatani could do a job there ?
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: honkytonk on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 17:19*
Need to sort our line out as well
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 17:54*
I think the attitude has been good and defence tons better , my main area of concern was that both Saints and Bath hit hard down Charlie Walkers channel . Marcus bailed him out a couple of times against Saints and Wallace and Marchant likewise last weekend .

He seems exposed in defence , for all his good work ball in hand

Mike Brown covered the wing well against Sale and Earle looks fine on the other side , but with MB out Im not sure who is more solid ?

Ibitoye is the obvious choice but Im not convinced his defence is great , Visser and Alofa haven't troubled the selectors .. I wonder if Semi Kunatani could do a job there ?

While Walker was off, Marchant covered the wing and did a reasonable job! I think the issue is what sort of winger partnership do we want? Gussie seems to prefer the Eddie Jones style of one out&out speedster, and a heavier, power runner on the other side (Walker & Earle on Saturday). Visser & Earle are too similar if that is what we're going for. Ibitoye has the extra speed, but isn't an automatic pick for First XV games.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: honkytonk on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 18:04*
What about Semi, hes a winger as well!!!!!
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quaking Quin on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 21:14*
The point of my post was to look at the results from a statistic perspective.

I wish Gustard every success. 'Balls on bags' was his highly publicised coaching innovation but balls are now needed from him to get results in any way he can.

Unfortunately for Gustard he starts from a low base and time is not on his side. He does not have a season or two to find a successful formula - good results must come quickly.

If Quins are to finish in the top six they need to win 9 out 11 home games and must start winning away games against teams that finished last season in the 6 to 11 positions.

Sale was a good start but loses to Saints and Bath do not bode well.

While Blucherquin may think it 'silly' to interpret a loss to Brizz early in the season as making Quins relegation fodder - regrettably it does. Perhaps he, or anyone else, can suggest where the away wins will come from if Quins cannot win away against the promoted team or Northampton?

Having now lost to Bath at home it also means Quins must find a replacement home win against Sarries or Exeter to make up lost ground.

As I said objectively back in August, we will have a very good idea of Quins fate this season by the end of October given the way the fixture list falls.

 




Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: DOK on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 22:09*
A team in transition or cause for concern for Quins? (https://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/sport/16886471.a-team-in-transition-or-cause-for-concern-for-quins/)

Danny Care says that Harlequins were 'beat up' by Bath (http://www.ealingtimes.co.uk/sport/16883454.danny-care-says-that-harlequins-were-beat-up-by-bath/)

Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: InsertQuinsPunHere on Tuesday 18-Sep-2018, 22:57*
That first linked article talks a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: A222Quin on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 07:48*
I cant say I expected a finish in the top 6 but the Bath game was a source for irritation and slight worry. A performance against Bristol is needed but Im not pushing the panic alarm after 3 games.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Fearless Fred on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 08:01*
I wish Gustard every success. 'Balls on bags' was his highly publicised coaching innovation but balls are now needed from him to get results in any way he can.

That's stretching it a bit. He used the phrase in training with the team which was captured on video & posted on YouTube. Even then, he was describing to a specific player how he wanted said player to change his stance during a ruck. Neither he nor any member of the team or wider coaching staff have come out & said something like "this is our new style. You've heard of the Wolfpack? This is Balls on the Bag!".
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 09:06*
The point of my post was to look at the results from a statistic perspective.

I wish Gustard every success. 'Balls on bags' was his highly publicised coaching innovation but balls are now needed from him to get results in any way he can.

Unfortunately for Gustard he starts from a low base and time is not on his side. He does not have a season or two to find a successful formula - good results must come quickly.

If Quins are to finish in the top six they need to win 9 out 11 home games and must start winning away games against teams that finished last season in the 6 to 11 positions.

Sale was a good start but loses to Saints and Bath do not bode well.

While Blucherquin may think it 'silly' to interpret a loss to Brizz early in the season as making Quins relegation fodder - regrettably it does. Perhaps he, or anyone else, can suggest where the away wins will come from if Quins cannot win away against the promoted team or Northampton?

Having now lost to Bath at home it also means Quins must find a replacement home win against Sarries or Exeter to make up lost ground.

As I said objectively back in August, we will have a very good idea of Quins fate this season by the end of October given the way the fixture list falls.

I really don't think balls on bags is a coaching innovation, it's just something he said in a training video when telling someone to have a low body position.

Top 6 is fantasy land given the work needed to repair a club in total chaos. Our aim this season should be avoiding relegation and not being a team full of quitters who don't trust each other - and to show signs of a rebuilding process. If you're trying to measure progress on if we're likely to make top 6 I just think you're not acknowledging how badly broken Quins were last year.

And I said it's silly because it's a long season, we've only won away three times in two years and haven't been relegated in either of them - and because we've only just started the process of creating a new side, which by January may well be operating better than it is now.

Not relegated and not terrible should be our aim this year - and so far I think there have been indications that the rebuilding process has begun.

Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Now ex-Navyquin on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 09:09*
I would like to see Visser given the nod over Walker, apart from that Marler if fit would got straight back to the starting team with Lang at 10.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quins Head on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 09:38*
Ibatoye has been outshining Visser in the A league in my view so deserves a chance oh as has Chisholm
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Chipstead Quin on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 10:45*
LOL Blucherquin - you've nailed our mantra for this year  ' not relegated and not terrible is our aim - I know what you mean and I agree with you , we should get them to put it across that big flag they unfurl before games !
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Marler on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 11:01*
I expect to see a few changes for the Bristol game. Marler in for Lambert, Lang for Smith, Ibitoye for Walker and possibly Bothma for Wallace. Should Brown be available, he'll get the nod over Ibitoye. We'll need to be a lot more physical early on if we want to come away with a win.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Fearless Fred on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 11:17*
I expect to see a few changes for the Bristol game. Marler in for Lambert, Lang for Smith, Ibitoye for Walker and possibly Bothma for Wallace. Should Brown be available, he'll get the nod over Ibitoye. We'll need to be a lot more physical early on if we want to come away with a win.

I'm not sure a back row of Bothma, Robshaw & Chisholm offers enough variation in terms of carrying, breakdown skills, etc. Chis & Smash are too similar to play alongside each other without a more specialised 7, I'd suggest.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 11:19*
LOL Blucherquin - you've nailed our mantra for this year  ' not relegated and not terrible is our aim - I know what you mean and I agree with you , we should get them to put it across that big flag they unfurl before games !

As as a slogan I think it's terribly English and sets our sights exactly where they should be this year.

Maybe that should be the tattoo for the person on the other thread.

Like "Earth: Mostly harmless"
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quaking Quin on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 23:00*
I can't believe Gustard got the HoR job by saying to the board his aim was to avoid relegation and for team not to play terribly.

A minimum objective each season for any head coach has to be a top six finish - unless you are in charge of the newly promoted team.

John Kingston said on his departure that he left the club with its best ever squad. It is certainly stuffed full of internationals and there is no reason why the form they sporadically show in games cannot be more consistently applied to give a top six finish.

As I said before, we should have a good idea of the season to come by the end of October.

Coaches like to break the season down into sets of five or six games with an associated series of targets. Losing to Bristol and/or Wuzz would be a mini disaster and require a serious change of plans by the coaching team.

May the force be with our rookie HoR.

Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Wednesday 19-Sep-2018, 23:49*
Do you mean Glos, who we play away on the 29th? If we lose both things will be looking grim.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Rocker on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 00:01*
Can't say that I'd see losing to Glos would be a disaster the way they are playing. I think that they could end up in the top 4.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 00:58*
No disgrace losing to them, it's just that if our bunnies beat us at home for once, plus losing away to Briz and Glos, then we'll be in a rather perilous position 6 games in with only one win.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: never sleep on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 08:27*
Losing games (especially away games) is no big deal as long as we pick up losing bonus points along the way.  e.g. at the moment, we are top half of the table despite losing 2/3 of our games.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 08:27*
Sorry so now we should be worried if we lose away to Gloucester?

That's unbeaten Gloucester who everyone are tipping for the play-offs and a potential shot at winning the Premiership this year?
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: AJQuin on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 09:33*
I can see Lang starting this week, based on Marcus' struggling performance last week and Lang's first-rate performance the last two weeks. Marcus would be a potential game-changer against a tiring defence, as is (clearly) Lasike. You heard it here first.

Apologies I tried to like this post but my fat thumbs pushed the dislike button and I dont seem to be able to change it. I agree entirely with your post!
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Brown Bottle on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 09:44*
There should be an "Undo Rating" link on the right.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 10:11*
Just add several positive ratings.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 11:23*
Sorry so now we should be worried if we lose away to Gloucester?

That's unbeaten Gloucester who everyone are tipping for the play-offs and a potential shot at winning the Premiership this year?

I think I'm the only one who mentioned losing to Gloucester, so no, we should not be worried about losing to Gloucester as a single event, but as per my post (which I'm sure you read in full!) if we end up losing 5 of our first 6 games we will be in a perilous position.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: never sleep on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 11:56*
But, you are missing the importance of Bonus points.
You can win 1 game out of 6 and pick up 15 points.
On the other hand, you could win 4 out of 6 games and only get 16 points (i.e. one more). 

You can get as many points in two losses as you may get in one win.  Basically, the team need to make sure that they keep racking up bonus points.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinten Poulsen on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 12:08*
That's true - if we pick up 2 points per game for the rest of the season I can't see us going down.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Gone on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 12:09*
But, you are missing the importance of Bonus points.
You can win 1 game out of 6 and pick up 15 points.
On the other hand, you could win 4 out of 6 games and only get 16 points (i.e. one more). 

You can get as many points in two losses as you may get in one win.  Basically, the team need to make sure that they keep racking up bonus points.

Yeah indeed -- we completely failed on bonus points last year and that put us in a really bad position. As above, we don't need to win away, but we need to pick up points.
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Comet on Thursday 20-Sep-2018, 20:04*
I agree with the maths and the sentiment of ensuring LBP and try bonus points keep ticking over. However, the psychological bonus of an away win would be a real shot in the arm. Especially given the close finales of the last 2 games. Last year's mentality of accepting defeat is being challenged this year but needs constant work.

 That magical away win could have come against Saints but they put us under too much pressure and we conceded too many penalties. So, the next (and arguably best) opportunity for that psychological boost comes on Saturday against Bristol.

We won against Glaws 2 seasons ago in the last few minutes. It was great. Last season's defeat was hard to take and the Glaws fans were bemused by our poor showing. It will be difficult but we will give them a game, especially if we come away from Bristol with a win.

Getting excited already! 10 points from 2 away wins! Then 50+ points on Sarries!

I've gone too far!
Title: Re: Balls on Bags
Post by: Quinston Churchill on Friday 21-Sep-2018, 08:35*
I agree. Results aside, Im taking encouragement from our added resilience to keep going which has given us 4 points we wouldnt have got last season.

That said, we really should be aiming to beat Bristol. I know they have some good players and I know its away from home, but if were aspiring to be mid table or better, a losing BP or two would be a disappointing return from this fixture.

Id take a win of any description, even if it is as ugly as sin.

Ive watched both of Bristols televised games so far and while Id admit to being fairly impressed, Id also like to think we can beat them.