ComeAllWithin

General Category => Everything not rugby related! => Topic started by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 10:32*


Title: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 10:32*
Knock yerselves out kids....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RodneyRegis on Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 10:55*
Ha ha we wun
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 13:32*
Ha ha we wun

The Brexit vote?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Thursday 25-Oct-2018, 19:19*
Think I'll just leave this here: https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Assuming anyone actually takes the time to educate themselves, you'd think the contents of this link would mean a stop to uninformed, naive Remainer-bashing and a return to some sort of pragmatic debate. But for some reason I predict a slightly different response...

Still, this whole Brexit thing is good fun isn't it? ;D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 26-Oct-2018, 10:35*
Well from what I can make of it, that was quite biased to the Remainers side of things although it does make some good points. I seriously hope that all these shark infested "Treaties" are a little easier to renegotiate than is being mooted. After all, it is a Treaty conversion not a completely fresh start.

I did vote in the referendum and see no reason to have changed my mind either way.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 26-Oct-2018, 12:52*
Well from what I can make of it, that was quite biased to the Remainers side of things although it does make some good points. I seriously hope that all these shark infested "Treaties" are a little easier to renegotiate than is being mooted. After all, it is a Treaty conversion not a completely fresh start.

I did vote in the referendum and see no reason to have changed my mind either way.

I voted Remain and would do so again.  But that's not because of any particular love for the EU.  In fact, the EU itself is a pretty grotesque beast of an organisation, and the Brussels elite are well out of touch with reality - it really is another world over there.  The days of big-man politics are over.  I'm actually naturally Eurosceptic and have always been massively against our possible joining of the Euro.

But I voted Remain because the ideas proposed by the Leave campaign, IMO, were low calibre, reactionary, and offered no real positive and realistic vision of an alternative.  Our press has blamed the EU for so many of our self inflicted ills.  Issues now require global co-operation and work - cutting ourselves off from such an organisation seemed folly to me.  Leave politicians are protest politicians - but like the Greens and others, it's far easier to campaign for change o specific areas, but if/when given power and authority to implement them they wouldn't be able to do the first thing.

I think a no-deal Brexit would be absolutely bonkers.  It is the most stupid proposition - you simply cannot just cut off 40 years of co-operation and regulatory and legal alignment like that without killing the patient.

What is the answer then?  Call it off? - I can't see that working.  Keep delaying? - that won't wash either.

Norway is probably the only practical solution to not disrupt trade/jobs/flights/NI border.  Would that appease the Brexit ultras - probably not?  But it's probably the only workable compromise in the timeframe.

Norway, or Remain?  What is it going to be?

P.S - as an aside I find it deeply amusing that Ireland, for so long the oppressed neighbour, is holding all the cards here.  The NI border situation is complex and has always been the spanner in the works.  British Imperialism - this one is for you.




Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brown Bottle on Friday 26-Oct-2018, 15:25*
Quote
I seriously hope that all these shark infested "Treaties" are a little easier to renegotiate than is being mooted. After all, it is a Treaty conversion not a completely fresh start.

I think the problem is the existing treaties were negotiated by the EU whereas the new ones will have to be negotiated by the UK alone with countries who still have a treaty with the EU. I don't think we'll be in much of a position to play hardball.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Sunday 28-Oct-2018, 09:57*
I do think we underestimate the power of our own economy in all this. We import quite a lot into our wealthy consumer society and this factor alone is enough to make people want to sit down and talk. It is not entirely a one way street.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brown Bottle on Monday 29-Oct-2018, 11:15*
So negotiating on our own we are stronger than with the other 27 EU member states?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Monday 29-Oct-2018, 18:12*
I find it hard to see any tangible economic benefit from any form of Brexit. Every time I ask how things will be better the answer is either fantasy or simply not economically based. IMO the problems identified simply arenít caused by the EU, could have been addressed whilst part of the EU, and certainly wonít be dealt with any differently/more easily post Brexit.

Iíve struggled to accept that peopleís desire for Brexit is based on something more than economics. And that they are prepared to accept short term pain for something longer term. To me that makes no sense, looking at the facts.

Iíd simply love to hear a proper rational argument for Brexit - how it will make us all more prosperous, with a brighter future than we have now. I find it incredibly tragic that no-one is able to articulate this better. If they did, and I caveat this by saying it must be reality based, theyíd be Prime Minister. The country needs it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Monday 29-Oct-2018, 22:25*
Basically, BB's post + alexfromlondon's post = my thoughts. My main issue is that we are OVER-estimating our position. We aren't the empire anymore (thank whatever god you want). And guess what, maybe we do have a superior economy vs individual EU countries (aside from Germany and France maybe) but we don't have a superior economy to the lot of them combined. Who really thinks we do? Seriously? That's the rhetoric - it's actually nuts. Our bargaining position is weak - I'd love Everyone's a Quinner to convince us otherwise. Disliking our posts is one thing but if your only reason for Brexit is "sovereignty" or "we voted on something 2 years ago therefore it doesn't matter if something completely different is actually going to happen" then I'm none the wiser. So help us. What is this all about? Really.

Sovereignty doesn't do it for me personally because do you genuinely, REALLY think anything will actually change for the better with the numpties we have running this country? And that's completely ignoring the benefits we get from the EU... Oh, but it's better to ignore those - doesn't fit the brexiteer argument that we actually gain economically from the EU, does it?

If it's immigration then at least have the balls to say so. I'm sorry but I haven't been convinced it's anything else. Personally, I'd love to think that if I wanted to move to any other landmass in the world then I'd be welcomed like a fellow human being, but maybe that's too much to ask. Such a sad world we live in. The more I live, the more I think humans (and particularly us white people - yup, that's what I said, deal with it) are a pathetic bunch. It is about "the other" when you boil it all down. For me, anyway. You won't convince me otherwise just by crying "just because we're saying this doesn't mean we're racist".

The funniest part is I used to consider myself patriotic when I was a kid - because I'd go to Twickenham and roar my little heart out as Rory Underwood rocketed down the touch line. That's what I thought patriotism was all about - was my only frame of reference. Now it's harder to feel that. Which is quite sad really.

For some context:

Yup, I'm a millennial. I've also been disabled since birth - have a rare neuromuscular condition. Have never walked, have full body muscle weakness. I rely on personal care assistants to help me do the basics day-to-day. Guess what? Haven't found a single British chap who wants to wipe my bum on the daily. Currently employ 3 Hungarian guys. Who knows how this will affect that - but that's not your worry, it's mine. Except I didn't vote for this. Hence I'm angry - that other people have put me being able to get out of bed in the morning in jeopardy because they don't like Polish people living nearby. Or people with a different skin colour. Maybe not you reading this - maybe you really did vote for other genuine reasons - but I knew a lot of people who voted that way for that reason. "Knew" because I no longer want to know a single thing about them. Disgusting as far as I'm concerned - and not just because it affects me. The reality seems to be that it's going to affect far more people than anyone realises.

And "disgusting" why? Because my girlfriend, who is black (and was born here and considers herself British in every sense) has been treated to some seriously threatening abuse and behaviour ever since this rise in right/alt-right rhetoric. And yes, I do consider Brexit to be simultaneously a symptom and a cause of that fever. There's no plausible way you can deny that - that's utter ignorance.

So when anyone talks about being patriotic I just can't get behind it. What is there to be patriotic about? I'll cheer on the England rugby team but I realise now that that has nothing to do with patriotism in the true sense of the word.

And then there's the fact that Brexit is a mess anyway - so whatever you voted for, whichever side you're on, you're not getting it. None of us are happy, has anyone noticed that?

Baffling.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Tuesday 30-Oct-2018, 00:44*
Basically, BB's post + alexfromlondon's post = my thoughts. My main issue is that we are OVER-estimating our position. We aren't the empire anymore (thank whatever god you want). And guess what, maybe we do have a superior economy vs individual EU countries (aside from Germany and France maybe) but we don't have a superior economy to the lot of them combined. Who really thinks we do? Seriously? That's the rhetoric - it's actually nuts. Our bargaining position is weak - I'd love Everyone's a Quinner to convince us otherwise. Disliking our posts is one thing but if your only reason for Brexit is "sovereignty" or "we voted on something 2 years ago therefore it doesn't matter if something completely different is actually going to happen" then I'm none the wiser. So help us. What is this all about? Really.

Sovereignty doesn't do it for me personally because do you genuinely, REALLY think anything will actually change for the better with the numpties we have running this country? And that's completely ignoring the benefits we get from the EU... Oh, but it's better to ignore those - doesn't fit the brexiteer argument that we actually gain economically from the EU, does it?

If it's immigration then at least have the balls to say so. I'm sorry but I haven't been convinced it's anything else. Personally, I'd love to think that if I wanted to move to any other landmass in the world then I'd be welcomed like a fellow human being, but maybe that's too much to ask. Such a sad world we live in. The more I live, the more I think humans (and particularly us white people - yup, that's what I said, deal with it) are a pathetic bunch. It is about "the other" when you boil it all down. For me, anyway. You won't convince me otherwise just by crying "just because we're saying this doesn't mean we're racist".

The funniest part is I used to consider myself patriotic when I was a kid - because I'd go to Twickenham and roar my little heart out as Rory Underwood rocketed down the touch line. That's what I thought patriotism was all about - was my only frame of reference. Now it's harder to feel that. Which is quite sad really.

For some context:

Yup, I'm a millennial. I've also been disabled since birth - have a rare neuromuscular condition. Have never walked, have full body muscle weakness. I rely on personal care assistants to help me do the basics day-to-day. Guess what? Haven't found a single British chap who wants to wipe my bum on the daily. Currently employ 3 Hungarian guys. Who knows how this will affect that - but that's not your worry, it's mine. Except I didn't vote for this. Hence I'm angry - that other people have put me being able to get out of bed in the morning in jeopardy because they don't like Polish people living nearby. Or people with a different skin colour. Maybe not you reading this - maybe you really did vote for other genuine reasons - but I knew a lot of people who voted that way for that reason. "Knew" because I no longer want to know a single thing about them. Disgusting as far as I'm concerned - and not just because it affects me. The reality seems to be that it's going to affect far more people than anyone realises.

And "disgusting" why? Because my girlfriend, who is black (and was born here and considers herself British in every sense) has been treated to some seriously threatening abuse and behaviour ever since this rise in right/alt-right rhetoric. And yes, I do consider Brexit to be simultaneously a symptom and a cause of that fever. There's no plausible way you can deny that - that's utter ignorance.

So when anyone talks about being patriotic I just can't get behind it. What is there to be patriotic about? I'll cheer on the England rugby team but I realise now that that has nothing to do with patriotism in the true sense of the word.

And then there's the fact that Brexit is a mess anyway - so whatever you voted for, whichever side you're on, you're not getting it. None of us are happy, has anyone noticed that?

Baffling.

TomBuckQuin and others it may concern.

Iím from the 1990ís and come in peace.
I would love to sit here on my sofa and explain to you what this is all about, by this I am assuming you mean the mess our PM and her aides are conjuring? The honest fact is I donít know, much like you, what is going on at the moment because of the atrocities of how this is being handled by BOTH sides. I voted to leave for a great many reasons, not that I have to explain myself to you but to name a few:


General principals and trade:
I am sick to death of our country being a big contributor to the EU in many ways, and yet when big decisions are made we aren't given our fair input into the decision making process for example laws, taxes, joint ventures, trade, immigration, economics and more. We are taken for fools with big money pockets to burn. We are not taken as we should be, a big contributor to the EU. You look even now and our country and our PM along with her team arenít respected by the other EU negotiating team. The Irish border is used as a bully boy European barganing tool; to which, a wise Irishman I know of put it perfectly regarding the Irish Border. Southern Ireland are part of the EU, Northern Ireland are going to be leaving, BUT they do not want a hard border. A big part of this is working out taxes on goods going from one part of Ireland to the other. Hereís an example, they already have trade agreements and already work out taxes quite easily. Why, for example: Guinness Beer. Itís brewed in the South of Ireland (EU for those asking) then itís transported over the boarder to Northern Ireland (UK for those asking) where it is both bottled, then transported back to the South of Ireland and then guess what: exported GLOBALLY. And the lorryís between these two parts of Europe cross freely. Point being theyíve worked out very easily the right tax/procedures, why does this now have to be different and become a big issue and a bully boy bargaining tool by the EU.

The whole original point of the EU was to help trade between European nations become much easier but in the end its evolved to quite the opposite and much more, becoming more controlling (even to the point where they now want an European Army Force, for what reason one rightly asks).

Immigration: Itís not stopping people coming into this country, itís about opening up the opportunities to everyone worldwide, giving everyone an equal opportunity in achieving things in our country instead of it mainly being about giving preference to Europeans (who I donít have a problem with). Itís also about having better control of immigration, controlling it like Australia does; having people come over who can work and have a profession, and having a better system which puts less pressure on services such as social benefits and housing.

When you say we arenít the empire anymore, I agree nor would I like to be part of one, which my friend is why I donít like where the EU is going. Itís Europe these days which is becoming and acting more of an empire than we do.

I feel some Remainers cry out for unity (I donít blame them) not fully understanding that leaving the EU has nothing to do with getting along just swell with our neighbours. We can all still play together, just work in different offices. Some Remainers say that by leaving the EU we canít get along anymore. Why?! We can all get along, we donít have to be making daisy chains to do so. We have the whole world to be friends and trade with. Why oh why is it just restricted to the EU and if we leave it will incur doom to us all!!! It wonít!!!!! The world is our oyster.

To be perfectly honest with you, like I have said before it is a great shame that in the case of Brexit, Parties and MPs from different Parties canít come together at one round table, share their good ideas, feed off of the people with good ideas and then go about their separate lives afterward so should they wish. Like him or loath him, people like Farage, Rees-Mog etc: you donít have to like someone to agree with someone or take advice from them. They have sometimes good ideas and itís a shame these people or at least their opinions arenít being listened to or considered by PM and the team in charge of Brexit at the moment because they are too worried about what people would think of them for talking cross-party interest wise.

You my friend I am afraid, are portraying yourself as a bit hypocritical by shooting at the hip at me and others who voted leave, branding us as part of the blame in the rise of ďright/alt-rightĒ etc when you donít even know me/us, then stand there and blame all of the disgusting and atrocious behaviour you and your girlfriend have been dealt with on ďpeople who voted to leaveĒ. I donít condone that behaviour one bit and I have many close Polynesian, Black, Asian, American, Caribbean, Canadian, South African and European (YES, European) friends who would back that up. Just because I voted to leave doesnít mean you can tarnish me or others with that brush. I am sure there are people out there who are racist and voted Remain too. There are many forms of racism and I take kindly to none. I am sorry to hear you have been subject to the vile behaviour that is racism, I too have been subjected to racism a few times myself growing up. Being someone who voted to Leave doesnít mean I can be stereotyped and labelled as something Iím not. TomBuckQuin you and your girlfriend have my full sincere thoughts and support and itís not nice to hear of this dispicable behaviour. I stand in unison with any other being in defending each other from that travesty.

Please understand that on both sides of the referendum vote fence, there are many types of Leavers and Remainers with different views and ideas and visions of the future. I am merely just one of them, these views are my own and I respect everyoneís opinion. At the end of the day I just want to have a better Britain and make things better for us in our little cluster of island and parts of the country that form the UK. I donít like to be stereotyped as Iím sure you can appreciate. Please letís try to understand that everyone is different and that you/we canít judge a book by whatís written on the cover. We canít judge, mock or label a human being by voting to Leave or Remain. It doesnít promote the unity people wish for and preach for by doing so.

I come in peace and leave in such manor.

I hope this gives you an insight into why I voted this way, and again I am sorry if I offend anyone. I certainly donít wish to do so. I write this in a calm tone and please portray it as such.

We are all Harlequin



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Tuesday 30-Oct-2018, 09:06*
COYQ!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 01-Nov-2018, 16:52*
More twists and turns. Aaron Banks today....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 02-Nov-2018, 09:45*
What'd he say?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Friday 02-Nov-2018, 10:08*
It wasn't me guv.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RodneyRegis on Sunday 04-Nov-2018, 20:10*
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11/03/09/5722482-0-image-a-16_1541236196197.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Sunday 04-Nov-2018, 20:36*
Interesting graphic. Pivotally Scotland and NI both Remain.

I find what is revealed when you drill into the vote very interesting. The splits and division are prevalent throughout the U.K.

My reading is on the whole:

Young - Remain; Old - Leave
University Educated - Remain; Others - Leave
Urban - Remain; Rural - Leave

I guess itís hardly a surprise that the younger, more upwardly mobile (and inherently more likely to have been in education longer) are doing better under the current system and have voted for the status quo. Than those older (more likely to be having a strop about the local pub being turned into a Polish Deli) and the working class struggling with employment and opportunities under the current system voted for a reactionary leave.

David Cameron really really messed this up and divided the country like no one else has.

Yes Brexit is happening but it absolutely wonít heal those divisions. It will make them worse and the country will be poorer and angrier than before.

Tragedy.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Tuesday 06-Nov-2018, 08:57*
Well hopefully we will be able to try and find our own solutions to these problems without having to run it past a group of unelected self interested people.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 06-Nov-2018, 09:08*
Well hopefully we will be able to try and find our own solutions to these problems without having to run it past a group of unelected self interested people.

Wow - you have a magic solution to get things past the May's Tories and the DUP?  Let's hear about this system?  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 06-Nov-2018, 09:17*
Well hopefully we will be able to try and find our own solutions to these problems without having to run it past a group of unelected self interested people.

Seriously though - this is kind of the unhelpful rhetoric that defines much of the nation's views on Brexit and the EU.

There are consequences to everything.  The world is small now and especially wen it comes to regulation, trade, law, policy etc. there are a number of setters.  Europe is the biggest one nearest us and the one we do by far the most business with, such is life.

Being out of the EU we are still going to have to fully comply with all of their regulations if trade and business wants to survive - e.g. financial services, car industry, agriculture - whatever you can think of that might involve even the smallest amount of cross border trade/co-operation.  We will have no say in shaping these going forward

So my challenge to this kind of opinion - is how, practically, do we move forward in such a weaker position?

My other challenge to this type of argument is - what laws specifically have we tried to pass but the EU has frustrated us and not allowed?  Can you detail any of the EU regulations and laws that we have had no say in and are causing us harm?

Free movement is a red herring - we have never taken as many asylum seekers as the rest of the EU; and we have chosen not to enact the regulation that requires EU citizens to leave if they are not settled with a job after 3 months.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 08-Nov-2018, 10:21*
I obviously have more faith in the British spirit than some. Observing rules to export somewhere is what we do all round the world already. It may even be a healthy thing to be freed of the Euro shackles so we can plow our own furrow around the world. There are plenty of takers. I can see the argument that to change and improve the Euro Block it is easier to do so from within but frankly I feel there are just too many self interested parties for that ever to happen the way it is currently configured. There is no reason we cannot rejoin the EU at a subsequent point in history, on our terms, with hopefully a much stronger grip on trade around the world to bring to the table. Its what we do.

On immigration, when we are out of the EU, followed closely probably by Poland and possibly Italy we can initiate a sensible policy that encourages anyone from anywhere round the world with skills and required abilities to settle here whilst stopping the flood of economic migrants that we cannot support. These people are a global problem and its not just down to us to resolve the issue. We can help of course but its not something we can do alone.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Thursday 08-Nov-2018, 12:20*
I obviously have more faith in the British spirit than some. Observing rules to export somewhere is what we do all round the world already. It may even be a healthy thing to be freed of the Euro shackles so we can plow our own furrow around the world. There are plenty of takers. I can see the argument that to change and improve the Euro Block it is easier to do so from within but frankly I feel there are just too many self interested parties for that ever to happen the way it is currently configured. There is no reason we cannot rejoin the EU at a subsequent point in history, on our terms, with hopefully a much stronger grip on trade around the world to bring to the table. Its what we do.

On immigration, when we are out of the EU, followed closely probably by Poland and possibly Italy we can initiate a sensible policy that encourages anyone from anywhere round the world with skills and required abilities to settle here whilst stopping the flood of economic migrants that we cannot support. These people are a global problem and its not just down to us to resolve the issue. We can help of course but its not something we can do alone.

Deadly hitting many nails on the head. A open and one world and more options than we will have had in decades 👍🏽
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 08-Nov-2018, 16:58*
I obviously have more faith in the British spirit than some. Observing rules to export somewhere is what we do all round the world already. It may even be a healthy thing to be freed of the Euro shackles so we can plow our own furrow around the world. There are plenty of takers. I can see the argument that to change and improve the Euro Block it is easier to do so from within but frankly I feel there are just too many self interested parties for that ever to happen the way it is currently configured. There is no reason we cannot rejoin the EU at a subsequent point in history, on our terms, with hopefully a much stronger grip on trade around the world to bring to the table. Its what we do.

On immigration, when we are out of the EU, followed closely probably by Poland and possibly Italy we can initiate a sensible policy that encourages anyone from anywhere round the world with skills and required abilities to settle here whilst stopping the flood of economic migrants that we cannot support. These people are a global problem and its not just down to us to resolve the issue. We can help of course but its not something we can do alone.

I hope I donít come across as being deliberately argumentative. Itís not the intention. I really enjoy the discussion and want to get to the bottom of things. Happy to continue this with those that are jnterested!

So...my queries on this are:

1) Is it not the case that a lot of the good trade we do outside of the EU is done on EU trade deals? What makes you think weíd do better alone? What about the significant period (years) it can take to negotiate even one?
2) Migration - what about the point that we already do have powers to restrict movement of EU citizens but choose not to do so? And the fact that itís proven that on average EU migrant are net contributors fiscally? Donít we already have control over ROW migration (that wonít change)?
3) Given so much of our trade an industry is intertwined with the EU, do you have any idea of the quantum needed from ROW new trade to compensate for cutting ourselves off from our EU partners? What might that look like and what industries?

The above questions IMO are somewhat rhetorical, but Iíd love to know your thoughts.

Sadly so much of the argument against the EU Iíve seen in the press stems from a big misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 08-Nov-2018, 19:40*
I think the EU need us just as much as we need them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/the-largest-economies-in-the-world


If those links don't work, what I am trying to say is that the UK is 5th largest economy IN THE WORLD and we stand at 5th also on the list of top Gross Domestic Product. The rest of Europe must be worried about losing our contributions.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 08-Nov-2018, 20:03*
I think the EU need us just as much as we need them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/the-largest-economies-in-the-world


If those links don't work, what I am trying to say is that the UK is 5th largest economy IN THE WORLD and we stand at 5th also on the list of top Gross Domestic Product. The rest of Europe must be worried about losing our contributions.

Youíre dead right. They absolutely need us and we need them just as much.

One of the other tragedies is that the EU, in their recent handling of Britain, have demonstrated all of the characteristics that have irritated Brits over the years. They should have taken the chance to be more up front and do a bit of soul searching as to how things have gone so badly wrong. They are equally flawed.

On the other side they must be so frustrated with us. For years we have had wasters like Farage over there, chewing the fat, making a newsance, and wasting space that could have been filled with progressive influencers that could have helped change the behaviour of the out of touch political elite riding the Brussels gravy train.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 08-Nov-2018, 21:26*
Thats a good point. Maybe look at it as Farage riding the gravy train of voters here who have only a knee jerk reaction to issues such as immigration, fisheries, sunbeds etc...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Saturday 10-Nov-2018, 07:44*
Iíve found this guyís blogs extremely interesting. An adamant Brexiteer, he often hits the nail on the head with the criticism of the EU and whilst the tone can sometimes by aggressive - itís good stuff.

http://peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-real-brexit-dividend.html

What Iíve learnt most over the last few months is that we are at risk because of ultras from both sides hijacking the debate. Remainers need to get on with it and shape the future relationship with Europe positively, and Brexiteers need to grasp the technical challenge and stop bickering amongst themselves.

I wish we could just get on with it in a moderate and sensible way that doesnít create chaos.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Sunday 11-Nov-2018, 01:06*
Iíve found this guyís blogs extremely interesting. An adamant Brexiteer, he often hits the nail on the head with the criticism of the EU and whilst the tone can sometimes by aggressive - itís good stuff.

http://peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-real-brexit-dividend.html

What Iíve learnt most over the last few months is that we are at risk because of ultras from both sides hijacking the debate. Remainers need to get on with it and shape the future relationship with Europe positively, and Brexiteers need to grasp the technical challenge and stop bickering amongst themselves.

I wish we could just get on with it in a moderate and sensible way that doesnít create chaos.

Likewise
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Sunday 11-Nov-2018, 10:43*
Yes it is an opportunity to really reorganise the way we do things and there is nothing like a deadline to make things happen. There is generally a resistance to change and a liking for the status quo but this is being forced on us and I remain very confident that we will make a good fist of it. Particularly as we can do it our way.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: A222Quin on Wednesday 14-Nov-2018, 11:07*
Yes it is an opportunity to really reorganise the way we do things and there is nothing like a deadline to make things happen. There is generally a resistance to change and a liking for the status quo but this is being forced on us and I remain very confident that we will make a good fist of it. Particularly as we can do it our way.

I wish I held your optimism. The lack of Political ability, a frankly irresponsible press and a group of people endlessly repeating slogans such as "out means out" etc etc means that I'm not that optimistic that the outcome will be as good as we hope.

It's disappointing for me that our involvement in the EU has ended this way. The blame is firmly routed on both sides - the likes of Juncker and Verholfstadt and many predecessors and the likes of Farage who are a divisive stain on the country and hark back to an era that barely existed and certainly isn't the reality any more.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Cookie on Wednesday 14-Nov-2018, 12:12*
All of these Brexiteers moaning about the deal. Don't they realise Brexit means Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 14-Nov-2018, 12:49*
Quite. My view is that this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. It is the beginning of a new self controlled era.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mandator on Wednesday 14-Nov-2018, 15:28*
Brexit? Is this a Rugby matter on this site? I think not. What else is going to be discussed the price of petrol etc!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Admin on Wednesday 14-Nov-2018, 18:56*
This is the area for everything non rugby related. And although brexit might affect rugby, it makes more sense for it here than on the rugby message board.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Wednesday 14-Nov-2018, 20:22*
Brexit? Is this a Rugby matter on this site? I think not. What else is going to be discussed the price of petrol etc!

The clue is in the title of this part of the forum "Everything Non Rugby Related".
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 15-Nov-2018, 14:37*
What a total mess the last 24 hours have been.  They've not even got to first base without falling apart.

I don't think it's right that there is one, but I think there will be a second referendum now.  There's no way out and there's no way through this.

Britain's had its mid-life crisis - made a mistake, got drunk, had a fling, got a stupid car and jacket and made a fool of itself amongst its friends and family.  Now get over it, grow up, apologise and go back to your wife and kids and make it work like a real grown up.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 15-Nov-2018, 19:38*
Regardless of my views on it, hats off to Theresa May for fronting up to all those MP's wanting a soundbite for their own Constituency's ears.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Thursday 15-Nov-2018, 22:40*
She is the "only real man" among them.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 16-Nov-2018, 09:47*
So what is the sequence now? Is it put the deal to EU for approval then put it to the vote in our Parliament? Presumably a General Election if the deal is voted down here?

We don't even start the real Trade Deal negotiations till after March 2019 which is when you might see some splinters in the EU facade.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 22-Nov-2018, 08:45*
Some splinters already! Spain want Gibraltar and France want fishing rights.....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 22-Nov-2018, 21:55*
My understanding was that it has to be approved by parliament here and also the EU.

Not looking good on either side.

Canít see it being accepted at home. So with no-deal off the table (that wonít get voted for either) where do we go from here?

A general election? Another referendum?

And then it needs accepting by the EU.

Remember...this is the easy bit. We havenít even started on the complex negotiations on the future relationship and trade deal. Thatíll take years.

Is it worth it? Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Sunday 25-Nov-2018, 13:13*
So the EU have ratified the deal today. Now the finest brinkmanship is required to get it through our Parliament.

Interesting times!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Sunday 25-Nov-2018, 19:41*
Time for a few to "put their money where their mouths are", as you say, interesting times.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Monday 26-Nov-2018, 18:39*
I have watched the last two "debates" in Parliament featuring Mrs May. On both occasions she has spent literally hours fielding antagonistic questions from all corners. I came to realise that it was all just an exercise in allowing individual MP's a chance to put on record their opinion for the benefit of their Constituency Party.

Ultimately it looks like the gambit will be, back the deal on the table because the alternative is unacceptable....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Monday 26-Nov-2018, 20:03*
Thatís her g@mble. Itíll probably win through shear incompetence and apathy, as no-one will be able to come up with anything better. Itís this or remain and I think there will be one last hard push for a referundum or to call it off.

In all honesty itís a bit of a travesty how badly itís gone. But they were warned.  Virtually no one is standing up and saying this is a good thing. Weird times.

We really are terrible neighbours. Europe must be sick to death of us.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 05-Dec-2018, 12:59*
Been watching the news with interest these last couple of days.

Legal advice has now been published and the Tories are really in disgrace.  It's a very, very poor show to be held in contempt of parliament.

My interpretation is, still that you cannot have a hard Brexit without breaking up the UK because of NI.  If that happens Scotland will become independent in due course.  Is it worth it?

I still think the only solution if Brexit is to be implemented in an EEA/EFTA option like Norway.  There is simply no other way through.  The top brass don't want that as it's perceived to be the worst of both worlds
 (even though it isn't).  Are we ambitious and flexible enough for this compromise?

Some have been warning of this for some time...

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Wednesday 05-Dec-2018, 21:58*
My head hurts!

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 07-Dec-2018, 09:49*
Well the way I see it, the Meaningful Vote next Tuesday is not the end of it. It is not even the beginning of the end etc..

Labour want a General Election, SNP & Plaid Cymru want Independence, Green Party who knows, DUP want their cake and eat it, Lib Dems are currently irrelevant and there is schism in the Tory Party. We don't handle change very well.....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Friday 07-Dec-2018, 12:07*
Common themyis of course that they are all politicians and oh interested in their own agendas, Brexit per we is almost irrelevant.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fearless Fred on Friday 07-Dec-2018, 16:07*

I still think the only solution if Brexit is to be implemented in an EEA/EFTA option like Norway.  There is simply no other way through.  The top brass don't want that as it's perceived to be the worst of both worlds
 (even though it isn't).  Are we ambitious and flexible enough for this compromise?

Some have been warning of this for some time...

Any thoughts?

That's doubtful to say the least. Norway is sounding like they'd block that...

Link (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/norwegian-politicians-reject-uks-norway-plus-brexit-plan)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 07-Dec-2018, 22:15*
Reccomended Reading :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 14-Dec-2018, 12:51*
Good to see everything is still going so well!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Friday 14-Dec-2018, 23:01*
I get the distinct feeling that the public and the politicians are poles apart on this topic at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Saturday 15-Dec-2018, 11:05*
As I understand it, this could go several different ways. What is the point at which the EU cave in?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Monday 17-Dec-2018, 19:21*
Project reality - this from Phillip Hammond:

ďA responsible government must prepare for all scenarios, which is why I have made more than £4.2bn available for EU exit planning since 2016. In the coming days, @hmtreasury will allocate a further £2bn of that money to government departments to bolster #Brexit preparations.Ē

Worth it?

When do the ďdividendsĒ come?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 10:10*
I suppose the dividends are self determination, self rule and independence to trade anywhere. They are coming at quite a cost though. I do think the arbitrary 2 years to negotiate with the EU after we crash out is not enough time though.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 11:11*
I suppose the dividends are self determination, self rule and independence to trade anywhere. They are coming at quite a cost though. I do think the arbitrary 2 years to negotiate with the EU after we crash out is not enough time though.

Seem to recall the Brexiteers propaganda machine were telling us negotiating trade deals should take a matter of a few weeks.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 12:51*
ďFreedom to tradeĒ ?

Is this not one of the big Brexit myths that has been busted? We already globally trade under eu negotiated deals. Brexit will restrict our global opportunities whilst we deal with the uncertainty as to what extent these deals may be replaced?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 13:00*
IMO itís time Labour grew up and opposed. Was pleased to hear there was talk of no confidence going ahead but they seem to have messed that up, which is very much their way.

This is probably as good as it gets. Take it or leave it?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 20:17*
Seem to recall the Brexiteers propaganda machine were telling us negotiating trade deals should take a matter of a few weeks.

I swear I remember seeing something that discussions with other countries outside of the EU such as NZ, Canada and the US to name a few happened months ago but I could be wrong
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 20:19*
ďFreedom to tradeĒ ?

Is this not one of the big Brexit myths that has been busted? We already globally trade under eu negotiated deals. Brexit will restrict our global opportunities whilst we deal with the uncertainty as to what extent these deals may be replaced?

Your point about already trading globally maybe so but leaving the eu gives us more freedom, not less.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 21:03*
Your point about already trading globally maybe so but leaving the eu gives us more freedom, not less.

How exactly? What countries do you foresee that we will boost our trade with through a preferential arrangement to the one we currently have? And to what extent will that exceed the trade we lose through cutting ourselves adrift from our biggest market?

What jobs might these deals create to replace the ones that might be lost due to lack of single European market access?

Would love to hear a positive spin. But sadly thereís no economic argument for leaving.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 19-Dec-2018, 01:58*
How exactly? What countries do you foresee that we will boost our trade with through a preferential arrangement to the one we currently have? And to what extent will that exceed the trade we lose through cutting ourselves adrift from our biggest market?

What jobs might these deals create to replace the ones that might be lost due to lack of single European market access?

Would love to hear a positive spin. But sadly thereís no economic argument for leaving.

I, like you Alex, do not hold all of the answers. These things come with time. You canít predict either way how worse or better off we will be. Anyone who tells you our world in the UK is going to cave in is spouting out utter fear mongering nonsense, much the same for people who can somehow give dead certain assurances (at this stage)  we will do better off. What I can say is what I said above which is so clear; be free of the EU means less constraints to how we trade and who with. Itís obvious. One less leache holding us back. I can see us striking deals with many countries. Itís all about our country having a backbone in this process and having faith in ourselves and our country. We are leaving, now we must all bind together more than ever and do whatís best for our country in these circumstances. What doesnít help is the mainstream media choosing what they report to sway the general publics knowledge with one sided views and cloaking the other side of things, the Gary Linekers who really should stick to their day jobs, a number of the big money business bosses who seem to be afraid of Brexit in more personal terms than what it means to our country and the select group of Remainers who havenít and canít let go of the result a democratic decision. I neither like or loath Piers Morgan for example but he makes a grown up point. He wanted Remain but believes both in democracy and since Leave won the vote we should as a country get behind it, pull together no matter what side of the fence we did sit on or still do, unify and make the best of what we can. The lack of spirit some people/media outlets show does not help. We are spineless and need to find our bite again.

We are in such a strong position if we left with no deal. If someone punches you, you punch twice as hard. For instance if the EU wants to charge us £6 to visit the EU, great we will charge them £12 to visit us. Theyíll soon change their minds. Donít tell me they wonít because Europe as a business and as a tourism perspective will always want links with the UK. If we let the EU keep punching us and we donít stick up for ourselves who will, and why would the EU stop. They are doing it for them, not for us remember! Donít let people bully you, it took me years to learn that growing up and the same applies here. It really does. A great number of my European friends agree that it is quite honestly disgusting how our country, our PM (whether you like her or not, she needs to be shown respect by the EU), our government and our people are being treated. They too agree that we should be sticking up for ourselves more and that we really donít seem to be expressing much believe or faith in our country or itís people, and that we should be much more headstrong.

Itís so clear in the water, these coming days you can see members of the European Parliament starting to quake in their boots. Itís written all over Guy Verhofstadt, Jean-Claude and others faces, you can see it in their behaviour, body language, what they say, what they tweet. They can see the storm coming and the nation getting fed up, we donít want to be shafted and we can smell a bad deal when one is presented and we are getting fed up of being bullied by the EU. Enough is enough and as we as the peopleís of the UK are starting to show this, European Parliaments fear grows. If we leave with no deal, we save £39 billion. We would be a free trader much like New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Canada to name a few. We can pretty much tear up tariffs and taxes on non EU imports, regain control of our fishing almost immediately. The taxes on these goods go straight to the EU. We will become better off as UK people by getting rid of these taxes and tarrifs by leaving the EU. Yet more money saved.

The European Parliament see this and they do not like it, not one bit, and are trying to put us off leaving on WTO terms as much as possible. And they make out as though this is the best deal which it is no where near a good one. It really baffles me seeing as we are in a much better position. If we leave on WTO terms they will come running afterwards for our business. It is a given. And once we do so you will see more countries in Europe wanting to follow suit. Italy, Hungary, Holland are already liking the idea of leaving, the people of France are finding their voices slowly but surely and are coming to realise how low Europe is sinking, and believe me it is sinking. As are the people of Spain, Portugal and Greece. New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Singapore are counties on WTO schemes and free trade who demonstrate good democracy and in turn have great economies. Letís join them. The same canít be said for much of Europe.

Thatís what I can tell you Alex. Our country has become too ďpolitically correctĒ in recent years and too spineless. We need to stand up for ourselves, we are in a much better position than Europe and they need us a heck of a lot more than we need them. We leave with no deal and you watch... they will be biting at our ankles afterwards joining the queue of other countries wishing to do so. And we will not forget the way our country, itís government and itís people have been treated by the EU in all of this.

A big problem with this whole situation is many peopleís perception which isnít helped by the media being so biased and amplifying a one sided story. Many of our countryís people perceive this whole thing rather wrongly. ďGive it to me nowĒ ... ďShow me nowĒ, people wonít believe something until they see it and unfortunately that canít always be the case. We need to snap out of this weakness and believe in ourselves, take this big leap of faith and then we will see what will happen. I am not a fortune teller but what I have faith in is our great country and itís amazing people, our history of willingness to pull through, work hard and go into things positively and headstrong. Believe in something and show trust in ourselves, that is a big factor in what has historically made us successful and what I believe will make us successful!

Letís keep positive, show some fighting spirit and do the business! Mange Tout, Mange Tout
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 19-Dec-2018, 09:08*
I think, fundamentally, I canít agree on a couple of key areas. And maybe this sums up where the country is divided:

1) Europe holds us back in trade opportunities - it doesnít, it creates opportunities (see the Japan, Canada and South Korea deals)
2) They need is more than we need them - they donít (just look at the numbers - there are a lot more of them than us)
3) Itíll be ok if we just believe - it wonít (we need people to engage with the technical detail and challenge - the ignorance about what the Eu is and how it operates from the public, media and politicians is flabbergasting)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 19-Dec-2018, 09:53*
This is also a good read regarding trade and EU etc

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/08/why-the-uk-trade-deficit-with-the-eu-is-woeful-and-widening
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 19-Dec-2018, 10:19*
Troops on the Ground! Don't back us into a corner!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 19-Dec-2018, 20:14*
Here is an excellent article. Itís a bucket of cold water in the face of some of the fantasy garbage being spouted by many on both sides.

But in short, make no mistake about it - Brexit is going to be hard, time consuming, costly, make us poorer and give us much less global influence than we enjoy now (IMO!)

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Wednesday 19-Dec-2018, 20:51*
Have a listen to this, No Deal Brexit bit is sixty minutes into the programme.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p06rhy1l
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 20-Dec-2018, 10:18*
69 minutes....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Thursday 20-Dec-2018, 12:01*
69 minutes....

Yes, a bit of waffle at the start.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 15-Jan-2019, 21:21*
So what now I wonder?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 16-Jan-2019, 18:36*
Win the Confidence vote, talk to MP's on all sides, fail to find a concensus, crash out with No Deal on 29th March.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Wednesday 16-Jan-2019, 20:38*
Difficult to see any other outcome.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 08:38*
Whoa. Seriously? Only a small % of MPs support no deal. Itís way too disruptive on even the most basic day-to-day level. I canít see no deal being accepted by parliament.

Therefore....the problem is there isnít much time to sort anything else out. Article 50 wonít be rescinded but will have to be delayed. The only way the EU will agree to extend it is for an election or a referendum and itís clear an election wonít happen right now.

Therefore IMO itíll break down at the last minute and the only way out will be for an exasperated May to extend article 50 with the promise of a referendum.

Iím fuming that both sides couldnít compromise. An EFTA style arrangement would mean we have close ties and can strike independent trade deals. Weíd be out of the EU.

Anything else is bluster. Remainers should have worked harder to pursue a more mutually agreeable compromise; leavers should have acknowledged the narrow margin of victory and the need to engage and compromise and that their vision of the U.K. in the 1950s is a warped fantasy.

Bunch of idiots.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 10:16*
Problem is that there is no concensus for any alternative to the "deal". Corbyn holds the key to it all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 10:18*
Corbyn showing his true colours...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Boonie on Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 11:45*
I'd still like to know exactly what deals we are going to strike with other countries.

Compared to where we were forty or fifty years ago, we have little or no manufacturing. Yes, we have some high end stuff, but no mass manufacturing, that's all far east or eastern Europe these days. We have an excellent service economy, but for things like Financial services, we already trade with pretty much everyone we need to. The EU is far and away our biggest trading partner, and we're in the enviable position of having a free trade deal with no painful Customs checks (I've been in international logistics for over 30 years, and I remember only too well the additional work involved in import/export before the borders came down in the early 1990s). As a member of one of the world's largest trading blocs, we are insulated from a lot of the issues around security of supply of both goods/utilities and currency fluctuations. As an isolated state, we are not.

Example - after the Neverendum Referendum, I heard someone saying something about "at last, we'll be able to buy New Zealand lamb again". We already do; almost half of all our lamb comes from NZ already. But we don't eat the kinds of lamb we produce in the UK; a massive proportion is sold to the EU because they eat cuts that we don't. That's just one example.

Others - I asked a serious question about the benefits of Brexit to a staunch Leaver. The argument eventually boiled down to not liking energy saving lightbulbs "imposed on us from Brussels", and that the EU was run by "bandits". Boris has talked about straight bananas, conveniently forgetting that prior to joining the Common Market, we had something called the Weights and Measures Act which defined all the same things - the EU version is a cobbled together version of our Act plus some of the other EU country versions. I hear problems about us being "rule takers". If we leave with no deal, and we want to trade with our biggest trading partner, we will have to obey all those tiresome EU directives that have aggravatingly led to safer products, reductions in harmful chemicals, lead paint on children's toys, and a hundred other inconveniences such as not being able to pump raw sewage onto leisure beaches and rights for workers. As soon as you leave, you become a rule taker; if you are inside, then you have a say as to what is in those rules, and when you implement them.

The EU is far from perfect. If the choice had been to leave the political elements of the EU but retain the Customs Union and Free Market, I'd have taken that...but the baby has well and truly been thrown out with the bathwater here, and despite protestations, I am not sure that every single person who voted to leave considered all of the implications. Staying in would always have left the option of leaving at a future date. Leaving burns your bridges - the chances of getting back in with all the elements we negotiated is unlikely.

The worst aspect is the paralysis of government over the last three years. So much more positive stuff could have been done if we had not been mired in this utter shambles.

Anyway...I await the next chapter with a barely concealed yawn and no expectation of anything good coming from this.

Rant over.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fearless Fred on Thursday 17-Jan-2019, 12:30*
The problem with that scenario is that an extension to Art 50 requires the agreement of the other 27 EU members, and they've already said that they will only agree to that if the extension is for a) UK Parliament to sign off on the current WA or b) a change in the UK Gov negotiating position (removing or altering the UK-defined red lines enough to mean that a significantly different WA can be agreed. They may agree in the case of a referendum on the final deal, but if a General Election were to be called, there's absolutely no guarantee that the EU27 will agree to an extension. A revocation of Art 50 requires only the UK Government.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 18-Jan-2019, 11:07*
It seems that the assumption is people who voted Leave have now been better informed and many will now vote to remain. Is this not possibly true vice versa?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 18-Jan-2019, 11:12*
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/13/poll-one-in-five-private-voters-have-changed-their-mind-on-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Friday 18-Jan-2019, 12:45*
Yes Iíve met people who have since changed both from Leave to Remain and from Remain to Leave. Many people on Iíve met both sides of the fence are also fed up with channels like the BBC reporting and showing a clear and blatant one sided view of things which only pushes people further away.

General consensus Iíve come to find is people just want the government and MPís do whatís best for the country, drop party bias and get on with leaving and working together to find the best solution/s to do just that
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 18-Jan-2019, 13:32*
I talk to a few colleagues about Brexit a bit, who have been pretty engaged with it.  Other conversations have been with just close friends and family.  I don't know anyone that has changed their mind and this includes leavers and remainers, aside from one who voted remain who is fed up with EU inflexibility and threatens to vote leave if there was another vote.  not sure he would actually do so though when push comes to shove.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 18-Jan-2019, 13:44*
It seems that the assumption is people who voted Leave have now been better informed and many will now vote to remain. Is this not possibly true vice versa?

Whilst I don't have evidence to support this, my guess is probably yes.  I think the EU hasn't shown itself in a great light dealing with this process, and they haven't engaged and tried to understand what the problem was and reached out better to avoid a mess (whether they should have or not is another question - but I think they should have).  They don't get/understand Brexit - and they've made no attempt to understand what led to it.  Then there's the whole hard line their taking with Italy and problems in France etc - wouldn't surprise me if people had been turned off the concept!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Sunday 20-Jan-2019, 09:42*
WEll if there is another referendum I will deffo vote to Leave even though I'm a Remoaner becuse that respects the original democratic vote.
Should such a referendum return yet another Leave result whither Parliament?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Boonie on Sunday 20-Jan-2019, 20:23*
General consensus Iíve come to find is people just want the government and MPís do whatís best for the country, drop party bias and get on with leaving and working together to find the best solution/s to do just that

But what if "doing what is best for the country" and "leaving" are at opposite ends of the spectrum? What if leaving is not the best thing for the country? There are clearly many MPs who are conflicted because of this.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Tuesday 22-Jan-2019, 07:36*
But what if "doing what is best for the country" and "leaving" are at opposite ends of the spectrum? What if leaving is not the best thing for the country? There are clearly many MPs who are conflicted because of this.

Boonie, with the greatest of respect my friend, what is for certain is that we are leaving. What I mean/t by ďdo whatís best for our countryĒ is to do whatís best with the options we have, itís up to the MPís/Gov/Parliament to come together and do whatís best for their country with what they have to choose from in terms of leaving and moving forward.

Iíll get slated for this and I do understand it is a complete different subject and context but in reality the decision making process and finding of solution remains the same:
Fruit pastels.
Many peoples 1st choice is the strawberry flavour, a good many other peopleís 1st choice is the blackberry flavour. Once those two are out of the picture or packet, there leaves us more meet in the middle options to chose from. There is only lemon, orange and lime left to choose and collectively they and we have to decide whatís best out of those options both in terms for our country now and also going forward into the future.

A big thing through all of this from the start on both sides was belief in our country and unity. Both of these things are needed going forward. We will get through this and prosper, no matter how much some selected media channels like to tell us we wonít.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Thursday 24-Jan-2019, 16:42*
One way of ensuring a No Deal Brexit is to constructively work towards a deal instead of all of this playing politics.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 29-Jan-2019, 08:55*
If we are into analogies then my favourite is the Lego one. Imagine you and your 27 classmates have been building a city out of Lego for many years. Itís large and complex. Suddenly you decide to tell your classmates you donít want to play any more and you want your blue Lego bricks back. You expect them to immediately accommodate you even though taking the blue bricks away will destroy some of the things that youíve all agreed to build together. Instead of being accommodating and pragmatic about arranging this and taking responsibility for the difficulties your decision has caused others you kick up a real tantrum and demand your bricks back immediately and say that you never ever want to play with them again, even though there are a number of other games that you enjoy. You expect them to clear up the mess and do the hard work in rearranging things for you. Youíre a bit of a **** really and need to grow up.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Tuesday 29-Jan-2019, 14:43*
If we are into analogies then my favourite is the Lego one. Imagine you and your 27 classmates have been building a city out of Lego for many years. Itís large and complex. Suddenly you decide to tell your classmates you donít want to play any more and you want your blue Lego bricks back. You expect them to immediately accommodate you even though taking the blue bricks away will destroy some of the things that youíve all agreed to build together. Instead of being accommodating and pragmatic about arranging this and taking responsibility for the difficulties your decision has caused others you kick up a real tantrum and demand your bricks back immediately and say that you never ever want to play with them again, even though there are a number of other games that you enjoy. You expect them to clear up the mess and do the hard work in rearranging things for you. Youíre a bit of a **** really and need to grow up.

That doesnít really reflect on what is going on though does it. Nor is that helpful in any way. And I wouldnít call 2 years immediate either. When itís something as trivial as a game then yeah I can see how that would be unreasonable however in real adult life we are having to follow EU sanctions and regulations to which we have in part had enough of.

The direction the EU is going regarding armies etc isnít where we want to go. Also everybody has a right to change their mind, just because you are a part of something doesnít mean you canít have a freedom of choice to change your mind. I find that way of thinking unhelpful and disruptive towards actually progressing through this in a positive and grown up manner. We arenít asking for all our money back (or bricks). The money (or bricks) we have already given to the EU (or in your case, a little toddlers tower), they can keep that. We are simply not wishing to keep building this little toddlers tower higher than its own good, as  itís looking ready to topple. We do not wish to carry on in this way and do not wish to be a part of the European Union. It doesnít mean we arenít part of Europe in itself.

To conclude things by saying ďYouíre a bit of a **** really and need to grow upĒ is both very immature, very unfair and very aggressive for someone who is just voicing an opinion, like we are all free to do. Iíd like to also point out that your concluding comment really does mirror your whole paragraphs attitude and manner in which youíve voiced this with a lack of any decency or maturity.

Weíll agree to disagree. Regards
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 29-Jan-2019, 19:55*
Really sorry you read it that way and for any offence caused - I didnít mean anything personally and the toddlers in the analogy were the Rees-Moggs and Farages of this world who are responsible for this garbage rather than anyone here!!

I still think my analogy is a good one though...!

Britain, in my opinion, has done itself so much harm on the global stage through this process and itís reputation as a solid and reliable partner is in shatters.

Sorry for those that made an informed choice on Brexit. You must be tearing your hair out.

The level of political and general pig ignorance from the public and our political leaders is staggering. Absolutely staggering. Sky did a poll and 26% apparently thought no deal meant we stay in the EU.

I give up. Itís shameful.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 30-Jan-2019, 08:41*
Still in deadlock even though some claiming victory and clarity after last nightís amendments.

We really seem to be learning nothing.

Last night was really just negotiating amongst ourselves to come to a position that is in conflict to the agreed withdrawal position last year. The ďsolutionĒ is incompatible with our own and the EUís red lines it seems.

Absolutely baffling.

British exceptionalism at itís weird and incompetent best.

The world is split between those laughing at us and those pitying us. How are we ever going to be able to negotiate trade deals when we have such a fundamentally basic lack of understanding of the treaties that we helped forge, and renege on our commitments and constantly change our minds?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 30-Jan-2019, 09:56*
Looking ahead I can see a time when our exit has decimated our economy and we are going through a depression with massive unemployment and garbage piled high in the streets with no government agencies functioning properly and no effective Social Security payments being made and the NHS closing every other hospital. Or not.
Should this scenario come to pass, we will lickedy split be begging to rejoin the Common Market ( as it should be...). Time is a healer they say.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Wednesday 30-Jan-2019, 11:19*
No doubt applying to rejoin without the concessions we enjoy at the moment no doubt.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 30-Jan-2019, 12:58*
You are Jeremy Corben and I claim my £5! Repeating yourself.....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 30-Jan-2019, 13:04*
I have just watched (endured) PMQ's and I have to say that tempers have cooled a lot since the vote a couple of weeks ago. There was a lot more nodding of heads from both sides and Jeremy Corben has been put in a position where he really has to get involved, or at least be seen to try and get involved, rather than just heckling from the sidelines and voting against absolutely everything.

Main point. Yes the House voted against a No Deal Brexit last night but it also voted on accepting the deal with a tweak on the backstop and voting for the deal is ultimately the only way to avoid a no deal.

Unless the House is unilaterally going to ignore the outcome of the referendum......
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Wednesday 30-Jan-2019, 17:03*
You are Jeremy Corben and I claim my £5! Repeating yourself.....

The ultimate insult.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 01-Feb-2019, 08:57*
Incredibly amused by reports that even if things go as smoothly as they can, there wonít be enough time to pass all the legislation to actually leave on 29 March and therefore Article 50 will need to be extended.

Experts eh?

It sums up the incompetence and sheer fantasy of some.

The stench of corruption is growing. May promising Labour MPs funds in exchange for votes on deal.

We are a banana republic and if this was happening anywhere else in the world weíd all be sneering about it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 01-Feb-2019, 09:00*
In any normal democracy Brexit wouldnít and couldnít happen until the differences have been resolved and the sort of Brexit we were going to have had been defined, decided and agreed on by all. We are years away from this. Well done Tories. Well done UKIP. Youíve royally messed everything up.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Friday 01-Feb-2019, 11:24*
Like him or loathe him or loaf him even 🍞:

The article 24 scenario is an interesting one which Farage suggested while in Europeon Parliment a couple of days ago. Juncker, Verhofstadt and Co. are normally seen sneering at anything Nige says however they seemed to have been caught unusally listening to him properly here, all the while looking expressionless, almost as though they fear that solution too as it makes things much easier and simpler. And they donít like other countries like Italy warming to the idea of leaving too now do they.

A link for the video below:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XR2snMKWbUM



Iím not saying every word he says perfect, but boy didnít it make Juncker, Verhofstadt etc shut up and listen quietly
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Saturday 02-Feb-2019, 08:22*
Guessing that would require cooperation and agreement with other WTO members. That in itself is a bit of a lionís den and other big members have already indicated that theyíd not accommodate U.K. exceptionalism.

In fact the whole WTO option is really bizarre. Most of those advocating it have no idea what WTO is and how it operates. Couldnít name one WTO regulation and what our place in WTO would look like. Weíd be bulldozed politically every single time.

Sums up how badly informed and ignorant many are of the legal and political reality of or situation that again stems from a misplaced sense of our position in the world.

Worrying.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Thursday 07-Feb-2019, 14:39*
Like him or loathe him or loaf him even 🍞:

The article 24 scenario is an interesting one which Farage suggested while in Europeon Parliment a couple of days ago. Juncker, Verhofstadt and Co. are normally seen sneering at anything Nige says however they seemed to have been caught unusally listening to him properly here, all the while looking expressionless, almost as though they fear that solution too as it makes things much easier and simpler. And they donít like other countries like Italy warming to the idea of leaving too now do they.

A link for the video below:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XR2snMKWbUM



Iím not saying every word he says perfect, but boy didnít it make Juncker, Verhofstadt etc shut up and listen quietly


That didn't make me loaf him (or this weird idea that the UK is somehow just entitled to have every cake and eat all of them that he peddles with so many Brexiteers) any less. The "arrogance" Tusk has been accused of this week shows just how deluded some of our politicians are. I know much of it is politicking but if any of them do actually believe 27 other countries should bend over backwards for us after we, ourselves, asked for this... well... game over. UK politics is officially dead in that case.

I think what's consistently censored from all arguments around Brexit on this weird island they once called the United Kingdom is that Ireland and the EU have every right to strike a deal that works for them too. It's like we're trying to redefine the word "negotiation" over here. Do Brexiteers just expect the EU negotiators to ignore the fact that 27 countries are relying on them to get this right for all of them? 1 vs 27. If you were one of those wielding influence during the referendum campaign who was somehow ignorant that those would be the odds (or worse, like most people with half a brain, you knew they would be) but still hurled us into this mess then yes, there should be a special place in hell for you because you're either clinically insane or just an utter imbecile.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Monday 18-Feb-2019, 14:33*
Ford, Honda, Nissan, Dyson - all moving investment and jobs overseas.

Whilst car industry changing surely Brexit partly to blame. There will be a knock on impact on connected jobs and industries in supply chains that feed into these places.

Brexiteers, what do you say to those losing their jobs? Where will the investment and industry come to replace them and make use of expertise?

Project reality - the turkeys wishing for Christmas.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: never sleep on Tuesday 19-Feb-2019, 09:30*
Honda is not Brexit related. There are people on this board that know the situation at Honda very well.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 22-Feb-2019, 09:03*
So it comes down to legal semantics. A form of words that pleases everybody re the backstop. Can't be that difficult shoorly?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Friday 22-Feb-2019, 09:29*
It shouldn't be but there are politicians involved so not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 26-Feb-2019, 08:35*
Labour officially mentioning second referendum now. It could actually be on.

Donít blame them though if it falls apart. The division within the Tories is solely to blame for not being able to bring the country together in a reasonable compromise.

Never trust a Tory. Every decision they make, everything they deliver, is only for the benenfit of them and their mates.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 26-Feb-2019, 14:57*
Are you seriously suggesting that Corbyn and his mates are any different?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 26-Feb-2019, 15:29*
Are you seriously suggesting that Corbyn and his mates are any different?

Where did I assert that?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 26-Feb-2019, 20:25*
"Never trust a Tory. Every decision they make, everything they deliver, is only for the benefit of them and their mates"

You might have said "Never trust a politician"
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Tuesday 12-Mar-2019, 17:43*
Looks like Terry M is going to take another kicking this evening. What happens after she gets spanked in Unmeaningful Vote 2.0? We must be heading towards a General Election or another referendum, surely?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 12-Mar-2019, 18:18*
A General Election wouldn't solve anything regarding Brexit. How could the likes of Rees Mogg and Irritable Duncan Syndrome seriously campaign on the same platform as someone like Ken Clarke & Dominic Grieve wrt Brexit? They are diametrically at odds. Similarly in Labour, for all his protestations I think that Magic Grandpa still hankers for Lexit so that he can found a true socialist paradise, which would be completely antithetical to the likes of Cooper & Starmer etc. Throw in that a General Election is fought on multiple issues combined with the FPTP that leads to pretty much every government in the last 30 years being elected by a minority of the voters who voted, and no-one can claim a real mandate for whatever their Brexit manifesto pledge is.

In five years time I think we will be looking at a fundamentally different political landscape. Neither of the two main parties is going to survive this whole fiasco unscathed. I think the Tory splits will be larger than Labour, but I can see both parties splitting.

I was chatting to a colleague at work about all this today as we were trying to work out what we would need to do with a shipment of products that is currently making its way by container from China for us to distribute globally after they land here in early April. we both came to a realisation that perhaps the best thing for the country is that the two large edifices of the Tory & Labour parties have left us fossilised in early 20th Century politics. It would be far better for there to be more parties, spread out across the various political spectra, and that Governments were formed of multi-party coalitions after elections, rather than a single party in control of the Executive and the Legislative arms of government. I know it's easy to say "Yeah, but Italy...". True, their system is chaotic, but Germany seem to do okay with that sort of system, as do the Scandiwegians, Belgians, etc. Forming a consensus that the majority can agree to may not be good "TV Punch & Judy" politics, but it is surely better than what we have at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 12-Mar-2019, 19:45*
I agree FF, although the LibDems paid a heavy price in the last election, I for one thought that the coalition worked well by curbing the extremes of both parties.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 12-Mar-2019, 19:48*
Itís a very very tricky situation. I didnít expect it to be this bad, and for the deal to be so comprehensively disliked....It is after all only the first stage of the departure and gives a platform to build the future relationship.

I still donít think anyone really knows what they want, why they want it etc. in relation to Brexit.  Itíll never get resolved. Itíll never be accepted. The division is too profound.

Last year I was convinced people might settle on a soft Norway style relationship that would be a good compromise. We are some way off that.

I agree with whatís been said about political reform. We need a new type of activism and intelligent engagement with the process.

Iím sorry for those that may be disappointed but I just canít see Brexit happening now any time soon...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 11:15*
I voted Remain.

To say nobody knows what they want in my view is a comment restricted to Politicians. In my view every politician knows exactly what they want and is self evident.
The people know exactly what they want too and have already said so.
If there is a second referendum I will vote but I will vote Leave because I passionately believe that it is anti-democratic to ignore an existing mandate simply because it is not the answer you wanted.

Further down the line you can revisit the whole imbroglio, hopefully in a more measured and informed way. As Remoaners have been stating that the referendum result is flawed because all those silly brexiteers were ill informed and easily swayed by propoganda promises, so it will be good to have experienced operating as an independent nation outside the EU so we can all make a truly valued judgement.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 13:45*
I voted Remain.

To say nobody knows what they want in my view is a comment restricted to Politicians. In my view every politician knows exactly what they want and is self evident.
The people know exactly what they want too and have already said so.
If there is a second referendum I will vote but I will vote Leave because I passionately believe that it is anti-democratic to ignore an existing mandate simply because it is not the answer you wanted.

Further down the line you can revisit the whole imbroglio, hopefully in a more measured and informed way. As Remoaners have been stating that the referendum result is flawed because all those silly brexiteers were ill informed and easily swayed by propoganda promises, so it will be good to have experienced operating as an independent nation outside the EU so we can all make a truly valued judgement.

The problem is though that "leave" was not clearly and consistently defined, and the implications of doing so weren't known.  The way "leave" was defined and voted for by many is completely inconsistent with the political and legal reality of the situation we are in.  It's cake-ism.

A referendum or cancelling Brexit probably is the right thing to do, IMO, now.  There was no mandate for the deal Theresa May has presented (everyone hates it and no-one will vote for it).  There is no alternative other than no-deal, which would violate our existing international commitments, which we can't do.

Why is more democracy, i.e. confirming that people still want to proceed with a decision through another referendum, so undemocratic?  It has been proven that we can't have what was promised, therefore the decision to leave that was made on that promise is invalid.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 17:46*
The problem is though that "leave" was not clearly and consistently defined, and the implications of doing so weren't known.  The way "leave" was defined and voted for by many is completely inconsistent with the political and legal reality of the situation we are in.  It's cake-ism.

A referendum or cancelling Brexit probably is the right thing to do, IMO, now.  There was no mandate for the deal Theresa May has presented (everyone hates it and no-one will vote for it).  There is no alternative other than no-deal, which would violate our existing international commitments, which we can't do.

Why is more democracy, i.e. confirming that people still want to proceed with a decision through another referendum, so undemocratic?  It has been proven that we can't have what was promised, therefore the decision to leave that was made on that promise is invalid.

Alex,
Where you say the implications of Leave arenít known, you could say the implications of remain arenít known either. No one knows where we would be 5 years down the line if we were to have remained or left. We can have what was promised, which was ďleave the European UnionĒ.

ďReferendum on the United Kingdomís membership on the European Union
_______________________________

Vote only once by putting a cross [ X ] in the box of your choice
_______________________________

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
_______________________________

REMAIN A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION [  ]
_______________________________

LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION [ X ]Ē

That was what was promised Alex. In the words of David Cameron at the time:
ďIt will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave.

Your decision.

Nobody elseís.

Not politiciansí.

Not Parliamentís.

Not lobby groupsí.

Not mine.

Just you.

You, the British people, will decide.

At that moment, you will hold this countryís destiny in your hands.

This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

And it will be the final decision.Ē

That was what was promised. It just goes to show, the Leave side could dig up many instances of what now look like to be lies.

I voted Leave and if I had to again vote I would. Democracy would be no more in this country if we were made to vote again, and I believe in democracy. Any trust our great nation would have had in our politics and democracy would be lost if Leave isnít honoured. Not a half in half out. Leave
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 19:48*
Ironic now, as the so called expert MPís who naysay Leavers by claiming anyone who voted Leave didnít know what they voted for, are now the MPís who donít know what they are voting for or have voted for.

They've tried to take away the one major bargaining chip we had in the negotiations. Not to worry, itís non binding and the next legal step is leaving with no deal on 29th March 2019.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 20:01*
Lols at no deal. Itís off the table now and was never going to happen.

Their own stupidity has wrecked the possibility of Brexit. Lack of understanding about trade, the EU, law. Could have been possible to have a moderate and sensible compromise but everyone was too stubborn and entrenched.

Itís over folks. At least for a few years.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 20:07*
Lols at no deal. Itís off the table now and was never going to happen.

Their own stupidity has wrecked the possibility of Brexit. Lack of understanding about trade, the EU, law. Could have been possible to have a moderate and sensible compromise but everyone was too stubborn and entrenched.

Itís over folks. At least for a few years.

Lmao oh but we are leaving. And if a select group of sour Remoaners stopped trying to steel the wheels off of the locked up bike, securing both a great deal and getting on with it wouldíve happenend.

Thereís a danger of getting over excited here. Itís non binding and we are leaving legally as it currently stands on 29th March 2019
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: TomBuckQuin on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 21:10*
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I wait in hope.

Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical past you...

We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit undone.

And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.

I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you were at least honest about that I could have respect for you. Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 13-Mar-2019, 23:31*
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I wait in hope.

Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical past you...

We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit undone.

And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.

I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you were at least honest about that I could have respect for you. Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.


I believe we will leave on the 29th of March. I have great faith we will as the government is too shambolic to come together to meaningfully sort something in the mean time, even if they think they have something to work off. In any case, you are as deluded as this government if you believe we wonít leave at all.

Because a democratic decision has been made, we should stand by it. The problem isnít the decision to leave itself, itís the donuts in charge and how to leave. Every referendum doesnít have a 2nd referendum just because one side doesnít like it, or because the people running the show havenít done the best job in getting us to leave. Things which hamper this whole operation is Remoaners, dishonest and immature MPís, opposition in Jeremy ďCanít make my mind up, oh wait I know, Iíll just keep calling for general electionsĒ Corbyn, and somewhat putting remainers in charge of leaving in the first place. The problem you have with your precious and possessed idea of a second referendum now is that not much of the country is interested, the country doesnít need it nor will it be healthy for both sides or for democracy itself. If you lack that vision, try to see that itís due to intrusive niggling that we havenít excelled in working out a better deal in the first place. If we had have got on with it with the right people and if the MPís acted with some honour and hadnít have tried to clamp our moving wheel, we would be off and already in the right direction. Itís undemicratic to have another vote, I could turn round and do a Remoaners after tonightís 312-308 and say ďoh well given as that was so close and me and my side doesnít like the way itís gone, thatís not fair, letís have another oneĒ. Silly childish behaviour and games.

Itís undemocratic because of the principle; people from both sides see this and will then ponder what will become of democratic votes in governments and so forth in the future, what is the point of having a vote if itís final decision gets changed. People wonít end up voting as they feel like no matter what even if their vote won, it can be so easily overturned now. This will be the start of the flood gates opening, once done here you will see repeats of this stupid petulant behaviour in the future. And it wonít always go your way. Thatís poker for you, at some point youíll trip on your own game.
You may call a 2nd vote democratic if it went your way but how should that vote prevail over the first one when they were both held in the same format and democratic way. Think about it. You canít have your cake and eat it, democracy when it suits you. When push comes to shove youíll discover that most of those MPís who oppose Brexit and putting it at risk are doing it for their own career and party interests and the keys to No10.

Of course as a Leaver Iíd fear not leaving, itís what I BELIEVE in and what I voted for. And of course because of this meddling and sabotage I would fear for democracy itself. Look at you for pointing out the obvious and mocking fear. Like youíve not been sat in it before. Does that make you feel big or something?

That sums you up ďIím loving the chaos tonightĒ. That sums up pretty much how adult thinking you are on this subject, you donít get your own way in the OG vote so you throw your power rangers out your pram. You mock others for what they believe in and throw out insults because you canít see that we actually believe in our country and its people if we were to Leave. You fail to see that there were lies on both sides, you fail to see the scaremongering, you fail realise this behaviour from our MPís will now be extremely damaging to the peopleís little faith they already had in politics and leave a foul taste in peopleís mouths, you fail to just accept the OG and final result, you fail to respect the people who voted for it or recognise that we are all different people; no one is the same and for you to brandish every Leaver as ill informed, racist, dumb.. I find that rather inflammatory. We all have many different reasons for wanting to leave and there are many, I donít have to keep listing them. Urgh, take a bath and rinse yourself of your biast stupidity. Itís you I pity.


Tom, you seem like a really nice bloke generally and I value your opinions on the Harlequins topics. I hate to address your comments in the same manner youíve shown me, but this just doesnít stick with me. You mock me and others from the very start in an attacking stance just because you want an asnswer for everything I or other Leavers do, believe in or say. You will never change your mind and I will never change mine. We donít have to agree on everything. I would like to think we could meet for a drink (a cola for me as Iím donít like alcohol) some time at The Stoop, enjoy rugby conversations, agree about how much we like Mike Brown and not so keen on Elliot Daly at 15 for England, and accept that we donít see eye to eye on Brexit. Iím ok with that fact.

Letís leave it here and how about instead of hoping for our separate sides to win, letís instead hope for mutual respect, and in the long term success for our country. You might even find that patriotism again.

I take my leave.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 09:18*
Even the MP's who are Brexiteers are voting against the deal? WTF? The deal is not i-deal but it is a compromise worked out between two opposing sides with disparate approaches. It's not all about us, there is another party to this deal. Why on earth can't we just take what is the best we can currently get at this moment in time then do what we do best which is work to gradually improve various aspects over the coming years?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 13:47*
Even the MP's who are Brexiteers are voting against the deal? WTF? The deal is not i-deal but it is a compromise worked out between two opposing sides with disparate approaches. It's not all about us, there is another party to this deal. Why on earth can't we just take what is the best we can currently get at this moment in time then do what we do best which is work to gradually improve various aspects over the coming years?

I agree with this.

But it comes down to ignorance and naivety.  Leavers don't like the deal because it doesn't meet what they fantasised about and were promised.  That's because they were lied to.  That's because the implications of leaving weren't understood.

The reality is it's never going to get any better than this.  This is the deal we've got.

If it's not what you wanted and is damaging to the country there's nothing to re-open, nothing to re-think.  You accept this and the damage it creates, or call off Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Thursday 14-Mar-2019, 14:11*
Makes my head hurt watching this fiasco rumble on. I voted to remain but fully accept that we should now leave I just want the politicians to get on with it. I believe that we would be in a very weak position if we were to remain so we need to bite the bullet and sort it out. No deal exit "feels" wrong as those advocating it were the same people saying that the EU would come crawling to us looking for a deal. Is The May Deal that bad, I don't know enough about it?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Friday 15-Mar-2019, 13:16*
We won't leave on 29th and you know it - no matter how much you try and deny it to yourself. I'm loving the chaos tonight. One step closer to another referendum. One step closer to remain. I wait in hope.

Why can Brexiteer/leavers not answer the question Alex put forward HONESTLY? The question I'm talking about: why is it undemocratic to revisit democracy? Let me run a hypothetical past you...

We have another referendum. The turnout is HIGHER than it was before (you don't expect that, I know, because it doesn't suit your story). The country votes 52% - 48% the other way (to remain). And guess what? Parliament has a majority. Brexit undone.

And that's the crux isn't it? You KNOW that would be, by definition, democratic. You KNOW that this cohort of voters would have voted based on an actual knowledge about what Brexit looks like with flesh on rather than the lies, rhetoric and lowest-common-denominator-bear-baiting tactics that were peddled previously. And you're scared of that - just admit it.

I'm being a bit inflammatory, but that's how I view you. And I don't know how you can convince me that's not your fear. If you were at least honest about that I could have respect for you. Unfortunately, every time a Brexiteer tells me it's the death of democracy to take it back to the people, they can wave goodbye to that respect I wish I could have for them. But it's a catchy line and Theresa May has trotted it out robotically and you've bought it. I guess I shouldn't blame you - I should pity you.

I've only just stared reading this thread - lunchtime, taking a break from working, no team selection to comment on etc. So, apologies of my points have been brought up previously.

For the record, I didn't vote in the referendum for purely logistical reasons. But I would have voted to leave. Had the result gone the other way I'd have been willing to simply move on, much as I do after each General Election. You buy a lotto ticket, but you're not guaranteed to win.

I will be disappointed if there is a delay to Brexit, because it seems that since the referendum there has been a concerted effort by many people to simply derail it from day one. I also think it would be massive slap around the face for voters if there were a second referendum - a kind of "you got it wrong, vote again" scenario. But here is my question, in the light of your hypothetical scenario: IF there were a second referendum with a higher turnout, what would happen if the result were the same, or even with a higher margin? It seems that everyone crying out for a second vote is certain that the result would be reversed, but the same people would have been equally certain of a different outcome first time around, I feel.

As regards mainstream politics, I think there needs to be a big change. Not necessarily the way of proportional representation, but in the actual people involved. Too many MPs are career politicians with no experience of real life; too many seem intent only on tripping up and disrupting the other side, and too many are seemingly on massive ego trips whilst sneering down at those that they don't agree with.

Much like the police, NHS, local councils etc, I just want people who will get the job done, not the career-driven, PC, self-serving out-of-touch swine that we see all too often.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 15-Mar-2019, 19:38*
Itís only my opinion, but I just canít see how another referendum would be undemocratic.

We now know what Brexit will look like, itís complex and challenging and there are implications that we didnít know to sure. It is only right to reaffirm for those that voted Brexit that this is what they wanted and still the best for the country.

I actually think itís a bit outrageous to deny that opportunity, considering how many lies and untruths were told by both sides and continue to be told.

Now we have reality, not fantasy. Take it or leave it. Itís the right thing to ask again, considering the magnitude of the decision.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Friday 15-Mar-2019, 21:12*
Itís only my opinion, but I just canít see how another referendum would be undemocratic.

We now know what Brexit will look like, itís complex and challenging and there are implications that we didnít know to sure. It is only right to reaffirm for those that voted Brexit that this is what they wanted and still the best for the country.

I actually think itís a bit outrageous to deny that opportunity, considering how many lies and untruths were told by both sides and continue to be told.

Now we have reality, not fantasy. Take it or leave it. Itís the right thing to ask again, considering the magnitude of the decision.


I understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent, but to be fair though, whoís to say we know for certain what implications we would have had in the future if we were to Remain? Just my opinion but I donít like the things the EU wants to do in the future and I donít like the direction itís taking in its ventures etc.

No one can fully say what something looks like in the future, for example all the doom and gloom predictions that were being amplified to the public about chaos ensuing the very day the votes decision was clear, but most predictions proved to be wrong after the referendum result. Either way, you can never be 100% sure
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Monday 18-Mar-2019, 12:59*
It is an odd one. We all seem to agree that ignoring the referendum result is undemocratic (except Alex who has a bumblebee in his knickers about it..:) ) yet Mrs May, who I greatly admire for sheer British Bulldog spirit, is able to keep recalling a vote on her deal until she gets the result she wants.

I also would like to point out that there are just as many ill informed "Remain" voters who, for example, seem happy for the EU to edge closer to being a Republic with its own Armed Forces and its own Foreign Minister plus we won't be able to stay out of the EU Monetary system for ever. Not to mention the unelected bureaucracy and the £billions of waste and duplication.

As somebody said above you cannot predict the future and you should deal with the current facts at hand and act accordingly. There was ignorance on both sides of the Leave/Remain divide but even as a person who voted Remain I now think of myself as a Leaver because we have had the vote and it is time to move on. All this uncertainty is far more damaging to Business and Commercial interests which in turn creates jobs than any Brexit will. Get on with it!!!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Tuesday 19-Mar-2019, 09:57*

I understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent, but to be fair though, whoís to say we know for certain what implications we would have had in the future if we were to Remain? Just my opinion but I donít like the things the EU wants to do in the future and I donít like the direction itís taking in its ventures etc.

No one can fully say what something looks like in the future, for example all the doom and gloom predictions that were being amplified to the public about chaos ensuing the very day the votes decision was clear, but most predictions proved to be wrong after the referendum result. Either way, you can never be 100% sure

Have received your PM but having trouble replying as the system keeps changing your user name to lower case.....hopefully Kim Il DOK will be able to advise...?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Boonie on Tuesday 26-Mar-2019, 12:21*
Haven't read too much of this thread as I'm sick to death of the whole thing, but just a minor point on the referendum - there is precedent for second votes. Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6% (53% turnout). The second referendum in 2009 approved it by 67.1% to 32.9% (59% turnout). That could actually be construed as a third vote, as in 2001, they rejected the Treaty of Nice by 54%, with a 35% turnout. Earlier than that, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992; it was rejected by 50.7% of voters with a turnout of 83.1%. Then in 1993 it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.

So, it is neither undemocratic nor unprecedented to have a follow-up vote based on the latest information that is available. It is not unreasonable either; a great deal of information has come to light that was either not available or not publicised in the first round of rhetoric and insults; we know far more about the detail of what leaving means and what the different shades of leaving mean.

Of course, there is still a great deal of misinformation; for example there are those who would have you believe that GATT 24 will ride to the rescue; however, if we left with no deal, then GATT 24 would simply not apply.

All I know is that 30+ years working in the international supply chain industry leaves me with huge concerns about the entire situation; there are so few positives and so many negatives for supply chains, and whenever that happens, the only thing that goes up is prices.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 08:41*
Wel we are clearly not going to leave tomorrow....And I canít see anything changing between now and April or May so the can will keep getting kicked down the road.

Yesterdayís votes show MPs canít agree and donít seem to know what theyíre doing.

I go through ups and downs with hope and justification for another referendum. My enthusiasm and hope for it is building now - I think itís the only way out of this mess. The momentum is behind it now, I think.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Thursday 28-Mar-2019, 08:46*
Haven't read too much of this thread as I'm sick to death of the whole thing, but just a minor point on the referendum - there is precedent for second votes. Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6% (53% turnout). The second referendum in 2009 approved it by 67.1% to 32.9% (59% turnout). That could actually be construed as a third vote, as in 2001, they rejected the Treaty of Nice by 54%, with a 35% turnout. Earlier than that, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992; it was rejected by 50.7% of voters with a turnout of 83.1%. Then in 1993 it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.

So, it is neither undemocratic nor unprecedented to have a follow-up vote based on the latest information that is available. It is not unreasonable either; a great deal of information has come to light that was either not available or not publicised in the first round of rhetoric and insults; we know far more about the detail of what leaving means and what the different shades of leaving mean.

Of course, there is still a great deal of misinformation; for example there are those who would have you believe that GATT 24 will ride to the rescue; however, if we left with no deal, then GATT 24 would simply not apply.

All I know is that 30+ years working in the international supply chain industry leaves me with huge concerns about the entire situation; there are so few positives and so many negatives for supply chains, and whenever that happens, the only thing that goes up is prices.

Agree with all of this.

Just to add in my professional life Iíve not met one client or sector that is happy about Brexit. Itís been disruptive, costly, and will negatively impact growth and prospects over the longer term. Whilst not a fatal disaster in any individual sector, itís a big ask for people to suck up more austerity, more job uncertainty, higher prices and less growth.

If Iíd met even one that was optimistic - seizing the opportunities - excites about the prospects - my views would be different - but in 3 years Iíve not met even 1.

Itís not worth it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Friday 29-Mar-2019, 13:52*
Haven't read too much of this thread as I'm sick to death of the whole thing, but just a minor point on the referendum - there is precedent for second votes. Ireland, for example, rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6% (53% turnout). The second referendum in 2009 approved it by 67.1% to 32.9% (59% turnout). That could actually be construed as a third vote, as in 2001, they rejected the Treaty of Nice by 54%, with a 35% turnout. Earlier than that, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty in 1992; it was rejected by 50.7% of voters with a turnout of 83.1%. Then in 1993 it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.


Some might say that this is an example of having more votes until the "right" result is achieved...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Friday 29-Mar-2019, 13:57*
Agree with all of this.

Just to add in my professional life I’ve not met one client or sector that is happy about Brexit. It’s been disruptive, costly, and will negatively impact growth and prospects over the longer term. Whilst not a fatal disaster in any individual sector, it’s a big ask for people to suck up more austerity, more job uncertainty, higher prices and less growth.

If I’d met even one that was optimistic - seizing the opportunities - excites about the prospects - my views would be different - but in 3 years I’ve not met even 1.

It’s not worth it.

Firstly, I have a question (which I've posted previously):

IF there were a second referendum with a higher turnout, what would happen if the result were the same, or even with a higher margin? It seems that everyone crying out for a second vote is certain that the result would be reversed, but the same people would have been equally certain of a different outcome first time around, I feel.

Secondly, I hate to buck the trend but I'm excited about the prospects post-Brexit.

I am concerned about your predictions though: "more austerity, more job uncertainty, higher prices and less growth". "...will negatively impact growth and prospects over the longer term". I don't know what you do for a profession, but I'd question your ability to be so certain about these things. Before you suggest that many experts have stated these as certainties, that can be countered by other experts suggesting different or opposite outcomes.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Friday 29-Mar-2019, 16:44*
Wel we are clearly not going to leave tomorrow....And I canít see anything changing between now and April or May so the can will keep getting kicked down the road.

Yesterdayís votes show MPs canít agree and donít seem to know what theyíre doing.

I go through ups and downs with hope and justification for another referendum. My enthusiasm and hope for it is building now - I think itís the only way out of this mess. The momentum is behind it now, I think.

What question(s) would you suggest (I can imagine you need 3), and how would the winner be declared, a simple majority as per the last one? I just cannot see this working.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 02-Apr-2019, 13:05*
Am actually starting to think a no deal Brexit would be a good thing. It would mean the existing losers in charge would have to face up to their actions and would have no one to blame. It would give the country a massive education as theyíd realise swiftly what theyíd thrown away. Thereíd be a period of hardship, depression, probably civil unrest. But would lead to a cold hard dose of reality and humility for many.

I think it might lead to a better politics in the future, born out of the hardship this created, and a more engaged and fair politics in the future.

The irony is the next generation will probably be begging to rejoin the EU 10-15 years down the line.

Iím mentally prepared for this carnage now and have completely given up on the current wastes of space in Westminster.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 03-Apr-2019, 11:51*
We definitely need to move to a much more consensual political system and get away from this unworkable and stupidly confrontational 2 party system with its constant blame culture.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: A222Quin on Wednesday 03-Apr-2019, 13:23*
Brexit has really shown how little in common some at each ends of the 2 main parties have with each other. Agree with the above on a less confrontational approach being desirable.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Tuesday 09-Apr-2019, 07:09*
So the Cooper-Letwin bill passes, reducing the risk of crashing out under no-deal. Can see the only way out being a long extension of a year or so for the country to get its act together. What happens in that period who knows?

I canít see a consensus being reached cross party as they are focussing on the wrong things - I.e freedom of movement, primarily; and are making a dogs dinner out of the rest of it.

The irony is that ďfree movementĒ is something we could have had more control over in the past within the EU but have chosen not to.

Another irony is the misunderstanding of immigration on a broader sense.

Regarding ďfree tradeĒ - I doubt anyone other than a tiny minority of disaster capitalists could quantify what these trade deals really mean for us. Also ironic, especially as we atte more powerful as party of a bigger group.

ďTake back controlĒ is a sadly misleading phrase for us.

Currently thinking that there wonít be another referendum or a dramatic revocation, but Brexit will slowly drift away from us over the next couple of years.

When March 29 passed, I felt a tinge if sadness and sympathy for those disappointed about not leaving on that date.

That feeling has gone, and Iím now back to the place where I think they just donít deserve any sympathy at all. The leading Brexiteers ran away when the going got tough. No-one had a plan. And no-one really understood what on earth they were doing and why they were doing it.

It has been middle Englandís mid life mental breakdown, as they have struggled to keep pace with the modern world. It is sad to watch.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fearless Fred on Tuesday 09-Apr-2019, 08:04*
The absolute cherry on the **** cake is Brexiteer Mark Francois MP (he of the "I was in the TA & learnt never to withdraw" fame) yesterday demanding, without a shadow of concern for the irony of it, that conservative MPs be allowed a second chance (vote) to pass a motion of no confidence in the OM as new information had come to light, and the "Will of the Tory MPs" has changed. You really couldn't make it up...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 15-May-2019, 11:44*
I'm a little confused over whether we can have a no deal exit or not? If BoJo gets in I imagine that's the first thing he will go for!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: marlowish on Wednesday 15-May-2019, 16:31*
Am actually starting to think a no deal Brexit would be a good thing. It would mean the existing losers in charge would have to face up to their actions and would have no one to blame. It would give the country a massive education as theyíd realise swiftly what theyíd thrown away. Thereíd be a period of hardship, depression, probably civil unrest. But would lead to a cold hard dose of reality and humility for many.

I think it might lead to a better politics in the future, born out of the hardship this created, and a more engaged and fair politics in the future.

The irony is the next generation will probably be begging to rejoin the EU 10-15 years down the line.

They will because they are stupid
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Boonie on Thursday 16-May-2019, 13:13*
Am actually starting to think a no deal Brexit would be a good thing. It would mean the existing losers in charge would have to face up to their actions and would have no one to blame. It would give the country a massive education as theyíd realise swiftly what theyíd thrown away. Thereíd be a period of hardship, depression, probably civil unrest. But would lead to a cold hard dose of reality and humility for many.

I think it might lead to a better politics in the future, born out of the hardship this created, and a more engaged and fair politics in the future.

The irony is the next generation will probably be begging to rejoin the EU 10-15 years down the line.

They will because they are stupid

They will because they will realise that isolationism and jingoism belong to a bygone era, and that in an integrated world, the isolationists simply get ever more isolated. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Tuesday 04-Jun-2019, 11:00*
Is Boris going to make it through the Tory MP's voting process on to the Tory Party Members voting process where he appears to be a big favourite?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Sunday 09-Jun-2019, 07:45*
I think he will win...

Iím also thinking it might be time to emigrate!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 12-Jun-2019, 17:08*
I donít know about you but Iíve enjoyed the last couple of months when Brexit hasnít been so prominently on the radar. The conversation seems to be coming back though.

Interesting that the upsides are no longer spoken of - itís about damage limitation and getting it done. And thereís still a bewildering lack of understanding about the EU and how to engage with them and build a future relationship. The people that should know, still havenít got a clue about what the WTO is.

Itís been nice to kick the can down the road a bit but nothing has changed, which is really worrying...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 11:07*
I'm guessing that should we Exit the EU in line with the result of the referendum the next thing will be rising calls for another referendum to take us back in again. This story has got real legs!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: dr_miles on Wednesday 26-Jun-2019, 12:41*
I'm guessing that should we Exit the EU in line with the result of the referendum the next thing will be rising calls for another referendum to take us back in again. This story has got real legs!

It was 1973 when the UK joined the EU in the form it was then. That too was decided by a referendum, and ever since then there has been disagreement about whether we should stay or leave.

Since the leavers continually lobbied for 43 years about leaving, I think that we can also expect that there will be discussions about rejoining for a similar timescale.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 23-Jul-2019, 13:10*
So now we know, we will be out of Europe by the end of October ........,.. or will we?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 24-Jul-2019, 16:52*
I am really not sure whether Bojo will deliver.

The words are comforting and reassuring (what is it about the U.K. that just accepts the words of a posh old Etonian without scrutiny or challenge) but the real test is when he is pinned on the detail and logistics. Sadly, his ďplansĒ will fall down at the very first challenging hurdle, so poor is his grasp of the detail and reality of our predicament, and how dreadful he is at maintaining and building relationship with our overseasí partners.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 24-Jul-2019, 16:56*
P.S I think the Tories should have gone for a younger, more progressive, collaborative, intellectual leader to unite the country. Boris seems to be nothing more than a more extreme divisive force than weíve had this far, akin to Trump in the USA. But I think we are more divided and complex than the USA and our issues are more challenging. I donít think that sort of figure would last as long as trump has.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Saturday 03-Aug-2019, 08:05*
Quite interesting mood shifts over the last few weeks.

Tory leadership pressing ahead with no deal prep. Whatever anyone says, no deal wonít happen. No one has the courage for it and itíll just be a catastrophe. The numbers in parliament donít stack up for it so Iím still reasonably confident that it simply wonít happen.

The ďdealĒ seems to have been ditched. Negotiations wonít be reopened and each sidesí red lines are the same. Forget it, and forget anything substantially different.

Where do we go from here now?

I think we are moving towards a collapse of government in the autumn. Then there will be another referendum with no deal vs remain on the ballot paper.

Interestingly this is what Blair predicted not so long ago...

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Monday 05-Aug-2019, 10:13*
Quite a believable scenario but who knows in these strange times. I wouldn't risk any money at the bookies.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Thursday 08-Aug-2019, 07:58*
I think the Boris approach is spot on. IMO the mistake that Theresa May made was to try and find a deal to keep everyone happy, and in so doing the deal presented made pretty much nobody happy.
Brexit is too divisive for any compromise. Better to satisfy the majority and allow the minority to suck it up. If that leads to an election, then the people get to vote for their MPs and hence their government; another result which the minority will have to suck up.
Second referendum? That would be a disaster, especially with an option that has already been rejected.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 09-Aug-2019, 20:27*
Pound on parity with Euro today. Congratulations Brexiteers, weíve finally joined the Euro single currency. You must be proud!

*Shamelessly stolen from Twitter

#ProjectFear
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Sunday 11-Aug-2019, 07:56*
I think the Boris approach is spot on. IMO the mistake that Theresa May made was to try and find a deal to keep everyone happy, and in so doing the deal presented made pretty much nobody happy.
Brexit is too divisive for any compromise. Better to satisfy the majority and allow the minority to suck it up. If that leads to an election, then the people get to vote for their MPs and hence their government; another result which the minority will have to suck up.
Second referendum? That would be a disaster, especially with an option that has already been rejected.

Thatís interesting. Actually I thought Mayís mistake was trying too hard to appease the right wing of her party and she therefore put up these incompatible and unworkable red lines. She was fixated by one issue (immigration), which in some ways is the easiest one to solve and could have been sorted within the EU.

I think if sheíd been a bit smarter, and a bit more moderate, the withdrawal agreement would have got through.

Lurching to one side or another isnít going to heal the division. Compromise and understanding is. Remainers have needed to accept the result and push, not for Remain, but for a future relationship out of the EU that would retain what they wanted and were concerned about losing outside of the EU. It can be done. Leavers need to accept that a huge % of the country is massively upset about this decision and feel that their rights, opportunities and prosperity have been taken away from them unfairly. Again, this can be dealt with, with smart leadership and intelligent thinking.

Reactionary belligerence is not going to solve this. Boris is not going to solve this. Heís a national embarrassment and the cabinet heís assembled is quite frankly scary. We need moderate, sensible, pragmatic compromise.

The way this bunch are going we will end up with a failing economy, troubles followed by a united ireland and an independent scotland. Will anyone be happy with this?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Monday 12-Aug-2019, 13:11*
Pound on parity with Euro today. Congratulations Brexiteers, weíve finally joined the Euro single currency. You must be proud!

*Shamelessly stolen from Twitter

#ProjectFear

I'd forgotten that currencies fluctuate... and that any negatives must be due to Brexit...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Monday 12-Aug-2019, 13:28*
Thatís interesting. Actually I thought Mayís mistake was trying too hard to appease the right wing of her party and she therefore put up these incompatible and unworkable red lines. She was fixated by one issue (immigration), which in some ways is the easiest one to solve and could have been sorted within the EU.

I think if sheíd been a bit smarter, and a bit more moderate, the withdrawal agreement would have got through.

Lurching to one side or another isnít going to heal the division. Compromise and understanding is. Remainers have needed to accept the result and push, not for Remain, but for a future relationship out of the EU that would retain what they wanted and were concerned about losing outside of the EU. It can be done. Leavers need to accept that a huge % of the country is massively upset about this decision and feel that their rights, opportunities and prosperity have been taken away from them unfairly. Again, this can be dealt with, with smart leadership and intelligent thinking.

Reactionary belligerence is not going to solve this. Boris is not going to solve this. Heís a national embarrassment and the cabinet heís assembled is quite frankly scary. We need moderate, sensible, pragmatic compromise.

The way this bunch are going we will end up with a failing economy, troubles followed by a united ireland and an independent scotland. Will anyone be happy with this?



I fundamentally disagree on much of what you are saying here. I don't quite how the "issue of immigration" could have been easily sorted within the EU. It's not a simple issue, and whilst there is freedom of movement (in and out) it's even harder to control. I also think you take a very simplistic view of the Withdrawal Agreement, and you overlook the fact that whatever she offered up to Parliament would have been rejected by some MPs.

Saying that "Remainers have needed to accept the result" sounds wonderful, but for a huge number that just won't happen until the deal is done. When you have elected politicians whose stated aim is to overturn the result of the referendum, regardless of the voting of their electorate, you have a problem. Those people will try to thwart any deal, by whatever means possible; and to say that a huge % of the country is massively upset, how do you think the even huger % feel when they actually WON the referendum??!!

I don't know why you're embarrassed about Boris - I'm certainly not. I believe he's exactly what the country need, and is already converting people with strong rhetoric. He'll need to deliver, and thet will take time - which undoubtedly he won't be given by those who are dead set against him - but so far he's talking a good talk and has chosen a cabinet that has the determination to deliver what's expected of them.

Personally I'd say there are many more things that the country should be embarrassed about - the current opposition, the way they treat visiting dignitaries, the inconsistency in how they treat others, the treatment of returning jihadis, the appalling way in which violent crime is addressed, our pathetic justice system, the level of hypocrisy from elected representatives (on all sides), the UK media and their blatant bias... I could go on, it's a long list, and seemingly growing.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 14-Aug-2019, 13:37*
I fundamentally disagree on much of what you are saying here. I don't quite how the "issue of immigration" could have been easily sorted within the EU. It's not a simple issue, and whilst there is freedom of movement (in and out) it's even harder to control. I also think you take a very simplistic view of the Withdrawal Agreement, and you overlook the fact that whatever she offered up to Parliament would have been rejected by some MPs.

Saying that "Remainers have needed to accept the result" sounds wonderful, but for a huge number that just won't happen until the deal is done. When you have elected politicians whose stated aim is to overturn the result of the referendum, regardless of the voting of their electorate, you have a problem. Those people will try to thwart any deal, by whatever means possible; and to say that a huge % of the country is massively upset, how do you think the even huger % feel when they actually WON the referendum??!!

I don't know why you're embarrassed about Boris - I'm certainly not. I believe he's exactly what the country need, and is already converting people with strong rhetoric. He'll need to deliver, and thet will take time - which undoubtedly he won't be given by those who are dead set against him - but so far he's talking a good talk and has chosen a cabinet that has the determination to deliver what's expected of them.

Personally I'd say there are many more things that the country should be embarrassed about - the current opposition, the way they treat visiting dignitaries, the inconsistency in how they treat others, the treatment of returning jihadis, the appalling way in which violent crime is addressed, our pathetic justice system, the level of hypocrisy from elected representatives (on all sides), the UK media and their blatant bias... I could go on, it's a long list, and seemingly growing.

Boris's quotes and comments display an incredibly lack of tact and sensitivity.  Almost verging on Prince Phillip standards.  It's a shameful reflection on Britain as a modern nation and the comments are a relic of another era.

So...whilst the referendum needs to be respected, why should it be done in a way that violates the UK's existing obligations under international treaties, in particular the Good Friday agreement.

What do you have to stay to Scotland, who voted for Remain, and will now push for another independence referendum?  Are you happy with pushing ahead with your extreme form of Brexit if it means the UK will break up?

What about Ireland?  Whilst there may be longer term solutions for the border on the horizon, what do you propose doing on 1st November?

Boris hasn't got a clue.  It's all rhetoric that'll be used to blame others when it all goes wrong.

None of the infrastructure required for no-deal can possibly be ready in time for 31st October.

The withdrawal agreement won't be amended and won't be accepted for the millionth time.  No deal is not physically possible to implement.  What is the solution?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Wednesday 14-Aug-2019, 16:28*
Boris's quotes and comments display an incredibly lack of tact and sensitivity.  Almost verging on Prince Phillip standards.  It's a shameful reflection on Britain as a modern nation and the comments are a relic of another era.

So...whilst the referendum needs to be respected, why should it be done in a way that violates the UK's existing obligations under international treaties, in particular the Good Friday agreement.

What do you have to stay to Scotland, who voted for Remain, and will now push for another independence referendum?  Are you happy with pushing ahead with your extreme form of Brexit if it means the UK will break up?

What about Ireland?  Whilst there may be longer term solutions for the border on the horizon, what do you propose doing on 1st November?

Boris hasn't got a clue.  It's all rhetoric that'll be used to blame others when it all goes wrong.

None of the infrastructure required for no-deal can possibly be ready in time for 31st October.

The withdrawal agreement won't be amended and won't be accepted for the millionth time.  No deal is not physically possible to implement.  What is the solution?

None of this is in my remit. I don't know the answers, but that doesn't mean I don't believe that the problems cannot be solved. I might as well ask you what you're doing to cure cancer, or ease traffic congestion.

If you find Boris's comments offensive, it suggests to me that you're a little thin-skinned. Tact and sensitivity are nice concepts, but in the real world they tend to slow things down, rather than get the job done.

Why should any obligations be violated? Why should the UK break up? Scotland voted remain, but they are part of a bigger entity that voted to leave. Unfortunately, Sturgeon can throw her toys out of her pram and threaten a referendum as much as she likes - they had one, and by voting to stay in the club, they run with the club decisions. Tails don't wag dogs.

There are many experts who say that a technological solution to the Irish border is not impossible.I personally don't have to do anything on 1st November.

You seem very confident of what's not possible. I disagree.I don't have the answers that you want, but I suspect that you wouldn't believe anyone who does. Brexit is a bitter pill to swallow, for the people who didn't want it. But perhaps if they accepted the reality, and helped to work towards a better outcome instead of trying to subvert it, we might be able to move forwards. Perhaps that is the solution.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Thursday 15-Aug-2019, 02:12*
You seem very confident of what's not possible. I disagree.I don't have the answers that you want, but I suspect that you wouldn't believe anyone who does. Brexit is a bitter pill to swallow, for the people who didn't want it. But perhaps if they accepted the reality, and helped to work towards a better outcome instead of trying to subvert it, we might be able to move forwards. Perhaps that is the solution.


Exactly Quinky 👏🏽
Togetherness, thick skin, optimism, belief in our country and itís people and our businesses. This whole ďI wonít believe it til I see itĒ negative, bitter attitude and sour way thinking paired with a lack of belief some people have in ourselves and our country going forward really grinds my gears.

The thing I often find with this is that a certain group of negative Remainers who donít want to accept the result is this: they were quick to advocate the idea of ďSay no to leaving Europe, we need to be joint at the hip in every way and show togetherness otherwise the world will crumbleĒ. Now, that way of thinking is all well and good, yet once the result concluded to Leave it was a big shame that the togetherness spirit they were promoting before the vote canít be applied going forward into Leaving. Where did the togetherness go to then in regards to ourselves and our country for the benefit of all going forward? Instead of carrying on with that spirit, the certain group of bitter Remainers all of a sudden want to drop that way of thinking and divide the U.K. and itís people further by hijacking everything possible to do with Leave. Sorry but I donít buy it. For example if I genuinely wanted more than anything to Remain and nattered on about togetherness in doing so, I would also honour those same values of Togetherness in relation to Leaving (instead dropping the whole Togetherness spiel because the vote didnít go the way I wanted it to). Itís not a good look and it really decloaks the disguise of the nicey nice teddy bear picknick way of thinking when things donít go the way they want.

I have a distant memory of a saying many of us used to love to bellow out associate it with Britishness. What was it again? Oh there it is....
ďKeep Calm and Carry OnĒ
We used to sell that on T-shirts to adverts, china mugs to posters on walls. We used to sell it to tourists visiting us; they must think we are crazy as a box of frogs looking at us now as many of us have clearly forgotten it and donít seem to promote that great saying we used to be so proud of. Where the heck did that british optimism go.


I would like to state that I donít mean to provoke anyone by saying this, but it has to be said because itís true. True colours are true colours and no matter what way you would like the world to be run, if you promote principles then apply the same principles to either way things go. Acting like salty football supporters after a loss, turning on their own team and giving lip to the opposition supporters isnít the way forward, acting like inclusive rugby supporters mixing with the opposition regardless of a win or loss, shaking hands, sharing drinks and toasting to the future for both teams is the way to go about it. Again not looking for an argument, just puzzled.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 08:50*
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? Youíve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. Thatís not my country and I want it back.

The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to repair now.

Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry, theyíve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess. Iím longing for the moment that the penny drops, these fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they havenít been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises theyíve made in relation to Brexit.

We shall see what happens on 31 October.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 09:54*
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? Youíve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. Thatís not my country and I want it back.

The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to repair now.

Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry, theyíve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess. Iím longing for the moment that the penny drops, these fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they havenít been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises theyíve made in relation to Brexit.

We shall see what happens on 31 October.

You assume too much. Settle down and donít believe what the biased BBC tells you and all of the fat cat CEOís of London who only care about their own pockets being hit and not yours. Because itís their personal bonus pockets that will get hit mostly, not yours.
Donít put all leavers in the same basket. Itís rude, obnoxious and darn right childish. I donít put all the remainers in one basket now do I? Itís not the right wing that has driven this, itís the oppressive left wing and their lack of respect to democracy that has done this. With respect
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 10:04*
Togetherness? Teamwork? Optimistic vision for the future? Youíve gotta be kidding. I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Putin, the extreme right wing disaster capitalists that have driven this. Thatís not my country and I want it back.

The damage done by leavers, and the vitriol and hatred spewed by the filthy press (Mail, Express, Telegraph etc) is too great to repair now.

Leavers probably want remainers back on the team because they know they need them on board to sort their mess out. But Sorry, theyíve burnt their own house down. They can clear up the mess. Iím longing for the moment that the penny drops, these fantasists are held to account and challenged as to why they havenít been able to deliver any one of the ridiculous promises theyíve made in relation to Brexit.

We shall see what happens on 31 October.

I see. This suggests that you are typically a part of the problem.

Let's hypothesise here. If we had a general election and, heaven forbid, Labour got into power by a narrow margin. Imagine, say, 48% of the populace "refusing to be a part of" a country led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al, then rebelling against anything that the elected government tried to do.

Can you see that going well? Not quite democracy, is it?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Sunday 18-Aug-2019, 11:09*
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for that % to rebel against them if they patronised them, lied to them, refused to engage with them, had broken electoral law to get into their position, and delivered something entirely different and more extreme to what was promised during their election campaign. Then I think it would be ok to object.

Holding politicians to account is not being a part of the problem. What many leavers donít understand is that having a strong robust opposition strengthens us as it holds those responsible to account to deliver a better solution. It shouldnít be a dictatorship

However Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc donít like that though because they know that when their ideas are challenged, they fall apart as the fantasy that they are.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Tuesday 20-Aug-2019, 09:56*
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for that % to rebel against them if they patronised them, lied to them, refused to engage with them, had broken electoral law to get into their position, and delivered something entirely different and more extreme to what was promised during their election campaign. Then I think it would be ok to object.

Holding politicians to account is not being a part of the problem. What many leavers donít understand is that having a strong robust opposition strengthens us as it holds those responsible to account to deliver a better solution. It shouldnít be a dictatorship

However Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc donít like that though because they know that when their ideas are challenged, they fall apart as the fantasy that they are.

You stated "I absolutely refuse to be part of a team with Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg". Unfortunately for you, these people are elected. You may not like how they got there, but more people voted for them than for anyone else. That's called democracy. You may decide that people have lied, broken promises, broken laws - but you are not judge and jury. You have no right to decide what they can or can't do. There is a due process for that, and again, if it's followed then you (along with the rest of the population) have to accept decisions that you may not agree with.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Wednesday 21-Aug-2019, 02:12*
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for that % to rebel against them if they patronised them, lied to them, refused to engage with them, had broken electoral law to get into their position, and delivered something entirely different and more extreme to what was promised during their election campaign. Then I think it would be ok to object.

Holding politicians to account is not being a part of the problem. What many leavers donít understand is that having a strong robust opposition strengthens us as it holds those responsible to account to deliver a better solution. It shouldnít be a dictatorship

However Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc donít like that though because they know that when their ideas are challenged, they fall apart as the fantasy that they are.


Alex, you have to understand that in this country there are different views and perspectives. You canít go around assuming and bellowing our that all Leavers are something, just because little old sour you voted the opposite which was to Remain. I highly respect your wishes were to Remain and I think itís admirable of you to stand by that. But that doesnít mean you have a right to naysay all Leavers all the while branding all of them stupid. No two people are the same, even if there is only two sides in Leaving or Remaining. There is no valid argument when people say ďLeavers didnít know what they wantedĒ or ďThe question should have been more specific on the ballot paper as there are so many ways of going about either leaving or remainingĒ. Because no two people are the same is the exact reason why it was a simple Leave or Remain vote. When you bring in other complexities to the question we will never get any where and people will be squabbling forever more with no clear answer because everyone has a different view on how to Leave or Remain. The vote was a simple question because of this. And with that simple question people took part in voting and the vote ultimately led to a Leave vote. How or why is the governments problem to sort out, the people did their bit in deciding and voting. The most democratic way to do this was two plain options, not 22 different ones. It causes more complexities and even more squabbling. It is not simple and confuses the country even more so, rather opposite to your claims that people didnít know what they wanted. Some people (Leavers and Remainers) didnít know how they wanted to either Leave or Remain and what deals/no-deals to be arranged, they literally just knew what they wanted and their feelings about about the EU were and why they either wanted to Leave or Remain. Thatís their feelings on the EU (the undemocratic corporation, not to be confused with the continent and itís people who are actually quite nice) just for clarification. Itís up to the government to sort out the rest, and to do that they completed the first steps whereby the democratic vote led to leave. The next steps should have been to do it in the way the government feels along with the deadline that if they couldnít decide what to do in the best interests of all involved, they would Leave via No Deal on March 31st 2019. Itís their problem if they didnít pull their fingers out until the final year of debating this as (if you like) and that they couldnít sort out a deal to your liking, you can blame it on them, not the Leavers. There was in this time of 3 years a general election regarding Mrs Mays tenure and direction in which she survived at the time, and then further along the line a vote of no confidence which failed, no wonder, with Corbyn behind it. What should have happened on the 31st March 2019 was to leave with no deal due to our governments (under May) failure to Leave with a deal which was put to vote and among other options where we ended up with people hijacking what was written in the law to leave with no deal. Since then the conservatives fairly had to vote for a new PM from their party, completely fine to do so as this issue is regarding Brexit and technically still their party leading the government for this time period until the next general election. Theyíve done that in Boris Johnson and now it looks finally like there is some clear direction in Leaving (we negotiate a fair and democratic deal for both sides of the U.K. & the EU. If we canít negotiate, where you will see that the UK is trying to but the unelected leaders of the EU do not want to, then we will Leave by November 31st 2019 with No Deal. Finally we have some sense of direction and also a back bone. The ball is now in the EUís court. If they do not want to renegotiate, then we have decided we do not like their current proposal and will leave with No Deal. Fair and square.

If you donít like that, then your chance to voice your opinion on it will be in the next general election where you will have a fair and democratic chance to vote for what you want to vote for, or moreover who. Until such time, you have to surf the wave you are currently on, whether you agree with it or not. Just like the time when the EU elections were cast, it was clear that most Leavers still want to Leave, as well as newly ascertained ones in people now of the legal age to vote, and by once Remainers now being converted to Leave. The vote happened when it happened and in a fair fashion, not brought forward or delayed unfairly. The same should happen in an general election, it should come about when itís due to, not before or after due to meddling of a petty group of select Remainers in government.

I recently read a post on social media which I will now consider going forward:

Before you argue with someone, ask yourself: Is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives?

Because if not, there is absolutely no point


Look I have high respect for you as Iím sure you are a good person, nice guy and you are right to have your views and to express them as is anyone, so long as they donít mean harm. I sincerely mean you no harm in my argument. But I cannot go on further if you canít grasp the concept of different perspectives. Or if you keep putting every Leaver under the sun in the same basket. We are not all horrible and we are not all far right, most of us just donít want to be in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Wednesday 04-Sep-2019, 04:26*
Great start for Boris...

Lied about talks with EU (there have been no fundamental changes taken forward).

Lost his majority.

Lost his first key vote which will, hopefully, take a mad no deal off the table.

Couldnít happen to a nicer bunch. This is the problem when all you have is tub thumping rhetoric.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Friday 06-Sep-2019, 06:47*
Meanwhile Jezza finally gets offered the general election he's been clamouring for since the last one, and declines it. Boris is doing a great job of showing him up to be what he is... A professional objector who hasn't moved on from the sixth form common room.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 06-Sep-2019, 08:59*
Boris needs to be given the opportunity to deliver the promises he has made. Itís only fair. An election would be a distraction and just pave the way for more nationalist run thumping. Unfortunately he has no plan to deliver anything and has lied and blagged his way from position to position. Only then have an election, when performance against promises can be put to the test. He will, of course fail.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Friday 06-Sep-2019, 13:59*
Boris needs to be given the opportunity to deliver the promises he has made. Itís only fair. An election would be a distraction and just pave the way for more nationalist run thumping. Unfortunately he has no plan to deliver anything and has lied and blagged his way from position to position. Only then have an election, when performance against promises can be put to the test. He will, of course fail.

Except he's been blocked from delivering on his promise to properly negotiate a deal, by having one option barred.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alexfromlondon on Friday 06-Sep-2019, 18:10*
Thatís sovereignty for you. Parliament is acting as it has been designed. This is what you wanted, thereís no EU to blame for this.

Still firmly believe a lurch to the right or left, any sort of extreme, is not going to work as the country wonít support it and it wonít get through parliament.

We need moderate sensible compromise, whether thatís staying in the EU or leaving. There have been ways this could have been achieved, but there has been neither the will, political skill, expertise or intelligence to do it.

If Brexit fails theyíve got themselves to blame.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Monday 09-Sep-2019, 14:32*
Thatís sovereignty for you. Parliament is acting as it has been designed. This is what you wanted, thereís no EU to blame for this.

Still firmly believe a lurch to the right or left, any sort of extreme, is not going to work as the country wonít support it and it wonít get through parliament.

We need moderate sensible compromise, whether thatís staying in the EU or leaving. There have been ways this could have been achieved, but there has been neither the will, political skill, expertise or intelligence to do it.

If Brexit fails theyíve got themselves to blame.
Thatís sovereignty for you. Parliament is acting as it has been designed. This is what you wanted, thereís no EU to blame for this.

Still firmly believe a lurch to the right or left, any sort of extreme, is not going to work as the country wonít support it and it wonít get through parliament.

We need moderate sensible compromise, whether thatís staying in the EU or leaving. There have been ways this could have been achieved, but there has been neither the will, political skill, expertise or intelligence to do it.

If Brexit fails theyíve got themselves to blame.

When you have a winner and a loser, you don't have a compromise. Also, this government will never get a deal through as there is an opposition which seems to serve one purpose - derail whatever the government try to do.

The solution is a General Election. See which MPs still have the support of voters after their actions of the past three years.

The suggestion of compromise is futile. It undermines the concept of "to the winner, the spoils". It's more "to the winner, a little appeasement; to the loser, a share of the prize".

Brexit must happen. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be listening to the musings of a three year old. Probably one with deeply considered views on gender politics.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Everyoneís a Quinner on Thursday 12-Sep-2019, 20:31*
In all of this and the difference in opinions we have, we must surely all agree on one thing:

The Labour Party have been and still are playing games with Brexit and putting Party before Country. In delaying leaving its costing £250m to keep us in the EU per week, they admit that their strategy and Brexit policy *should they win a future election where we would still be in the EU* is this - Go to the EU to try to get a better deal than Boris, proceed to have a referendum where Remain is an option and then campaign for Remain against their own deal which they would have negotiated with the EU. Bonkers
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Saturday 14-Sep-2019, 14:38*
In all of this and the difference in opinions we have, we must surely all agree on one thing:

The Labour Party have been and still are playing games with Brexit and putting Party before Country. In delaying leaving its costing £250m to keep us in the EU per week, they admit that their strategy and Brexit policy *should they win a future election where we would still be in the EU* is this - Go to the EU to try to get a better deal than Boris, proceed to have a referendum where Remain is an option and then campaign for Remain against their own deal which they would have negotiated with the EU. Bonkers

Agree 100%.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BedfordshireBoy on Tuesday 24-Sep-2019, 11:12*
Supreme Court ruling another twist to this never ending tale.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Carbonm on Tuesday 24-Sep-2019, 18:18*
In all of this and the difference in opinions we have, we must surely all agree on one thing:

The Labour Party have been and still are playing games with Brexit and putting Party before Country. In delaying leaving its costing £250m to keep us in the EU per week, they admit that their strategy and Brexit policy *should they win a future election where we would still be in the EU* is this - Go to the EU to try to get a better deal than Boris, proceed to have a referendum where Remain is an option and then campaign for Remain against their own deal which they would have negotiated with the EU. Bonkers

But no-one can get a deal through Parliament. Therefore the only options left appear to be no deal which could be disastrous or take the final choice back to the people to have the final say.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Bolly-Quin on Sunday 24-Nov-2019, 23:16*
When you have a winner and a loser, you don't have a compromise. Also, this government will never get a deal through as there is an opposition which seems to serve one purpose - derail whatever the government try to do.

The solution is a General Election. See which MPs still have the support of voters after their actions of the past three years.

The suggestion of compromise is futile. It undermines the concept of "to the winner, the spoils". It's more "to the winner, a little appeasement; to the loser, a share of the prize".

Brexit must happen. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be listening to the musings of a three year old. Probably one with deeply considered views on gender politics.

Democracy doesnít need to be a Boolean choice. With such a close result, there was an opportunity to find a balanced solution before views on both sides became too polarised.

Farage made two points in and around the referendum - that it might take two referenda to cement the choice and that living under a Norwegian/EFTA model would be fine. This now seems like the best solution all round (not in EU and closely linked) and comes from the (albeit recently recanted) arbiter of the leave movement. How apposite.

I'm not sure your Gender Equality thoughts (on this board and others) are wholly based on fairness.

Far too late to this thread, I know, but...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 29-Nov-2019, 10:43*
So BoJo is heading for a 68 seat majority. Brexit for Xmas everybody!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Quinky on Sunday 01-Dec-2019, 23:21*

I'm not sure your Gender Equality thoughts (on this board and others) are wholly based on fairness.


I'm yet to meet anyone (feminists especially) who seem to have a clear view of what "gender equality" really is. The usual diatribe is "more women" and "more money for women". No substance, no reasoning, just repetition of the mantra.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: dr_miles on Wednesday 04-Dec-2019, 09:18*
I'm yet to meet anyone (feminists especially) who seem to have a clear view of what "gender equality" really is. The usual diatribe is "more women" and "more money for women". No substance, no reasoning, just repetition of the mantra.

Luckily no one has done any work to define this at all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_equality
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 06-Dec-2019, 09:41*
Talking of tactical voting I shall nail my colours to the mast. I simply cannot support the essentially 2 party system we have here in the UK. We absolutely have to move to a more consensual form of politics with Proportional Representation. I normally look for a good solid Independent who understands and supports local issues and give them my support. However, because one must study the issues current at the time and really try to avoid voting along Presidential style politics for personalities, I shall be voting for BoJo. I voted Remain in the Referendum but this election is a single issue one about Brexit because the Establishment simply would not allow the voice of the people to be heard in the Leave result. I strongly believe that you cannot keep having another vote until you get your desired result so I will be voting BoJo to Leave to honour the result of the Referendum. Whether I will ever vote Tory again is another matter.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: deadlyfrom5yardsout on Friday 06-Dec-2019, 09:42*
 Oh, and if I hear one more person say that those who voted Leave did not know what they voted for I shall scream and scream until I am sick