ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: GP2110 on Saturday 01-Dec-2018, 00:09*
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Outstanding tonight.
When robshaw is back, I can see him slotting in at lock.
How good would the following be:
4. Horwill
5. Dombrandt
6. Robshaw
7. Clifford
8. Chisholm
Bench:
Merrick / Symons
Bothma / Kunatani
Our squad depth I s looking far stronger this season.
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Not sure that Clifford is a guaranteed starter over Dombrandt right now.
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I'm not sure what happens with our back row but Dombrandt was outstanding tonight.
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I couldn’t pick it frankly.
Dombrandt, Clifford and Chis were superb.
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Not sure that Clifford is a guaranteed starter over Dombrandt right now.
Dunno. I think he's been top drawer, getting better every week. He does so much.
Certainly a great problem to have. I'd agree on the lock point, not sure how you could keep any of the 4 off the pitch.
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The back row were great tonight and The Dominator was at the forefront. He's hard to kick out of the team right now.
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As both JK and Gustard mentioned after the game, Dombrandt is really not in shape. The footage from the dressing room backs this up. Would be interesting to see what he's capable of once we've fixed that.
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Put Robshaw in the second row Ive heard it all now
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As both JK and Gustard mentioned after the game, Dombrandt is really not in shape. The footage from the dressing room backs this up. Would be interesting to see what he's capable of once we've fixed that.
I think you’ll find Joe Marler simply calls it an “old school rig”
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Put Robshaw in the second row Ive heard it all now
Dombrandt not Robshaw.
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At the end of the BT coverage JK asked Gussy if he saw a young Nick Easter in Dombrandt ..... hadn’t thought of it like that but can see some similarities
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I think you’ll find Joe Marler simply calls it an “old school rig”
Yeah, guzzie was saying he was fresh out of uni and still had a university rig :)
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At the end of the BT coverage JK asked Gussy if he saw a young Nick Easter in Dombrandt ..... hadn’t thought of it like that but can see some similarities
I think a lot of what he meant was that he came to the game late.
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As both JK and Gustard mentioned after the game, Dombrandt is really not in shape. The footage from the dressing room backs this up. Would be interesting to see what he's capable of once we've fixed that.
He definitely doesn’t look like he is in shape, but in fairness to him, he was good for 80mins which suggests to me that he’s fitter than he looks.
He’s a real find. I’d definitely be open to us trying him at lock, but as raedarius said, he and Chis are probably more likely to keep their places when Robshaw returns with Clifford dropping to the bench. It’s a nice problem to have anyway.
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I think a lot of what he meant was that he came to the game late.
RR JK also added his ability to stay on his feet. For me that’s where his best potential lies. He looks to be a coaches dream. So much to come. Dombrant is on Fire!
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Apols, for those that care, a coachs’ dream......I’m so sorry.
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Apols, for those that care, a coachs’ dream......I’m so sorry.
You mean a coach's dream.
Honestly!!! 🙂
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You mean a coach's dream.
Honestly!!! 🙂
Thanks Quinky, but I did mean all coaches.
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But all coaches are represented by the singular concept of any one coach.
He’d have to be the dream of a collective group such as all the coaches at Quins to be “the coaches’ dream”
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A "dream of coaches" would be an apposite collective pronoun...
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After last years nightmare....
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Double page article on him in today’s Times. Barnes is impressed!
And 5 Quins in the Times team of the week - been a while since THAT happened!
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He's providing something we've been missing - a genuine carrying threat. Seems to have natural strength and balance, stays on his feet and good leg drive. Hope any "rig improvement" doesn't undo that, though you'd think he could only get stronger.
Not sure about shifting him to the second row - I think he'd get his hands on the ball less and you can't expect him to push in the scrums and maintain the carrying responsibilities. It's an option though if we can't get better resources at lock.
He's a young lad, so we shouldn't over-use him. Any 3 of Robshaw, Chis, Clifford and Dombrandt looks really good.
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Question for everyone: longer term, where do you see his best position being? For me, it's 8. In my mind, you want him to be our carrier off the base of the scrum given that's his greatest strength. The Nick Easter comparison is spot on for me - I realise we're still in the early days of his career here but he seems to have the same attributes. The question then is do you move Chisholm (our other best carrier, but with different attributes) to 6?
I, personally, definitely don't want to see Dombrandt shoved into the second row long term. He's too short (yes, I know, Goatman) and I'd rather we had two out-and-out locks in the engine room and allow Dombrandt much more time in the loose where he can do the most damage.
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Yes I agree TBQ
8 Looks a natural fit for him, thing is Chis Jr is so good there, but he might have enough bulk to make a decent 4/5 trouble is he then isn't a line out option (I don't think).
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And to be clear, Chis is consistently one of my favourite players and one of the first names on the sheet for me. Good dilemma to have I guess!
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I seem to remember a question on a thread about where Dombrandt's national allegiances would lie, given that he's already played for Wales U20. Obvs, you wouldn't want to jump too far ahead after 1 MotM and a handful of prem appearances, however The Guardian confirmed today that he is English and not qualified to play for Wales at senior level:
"Exeter’s first league defeat of the season was a deserved reward for Harlequins’s up-and-at-’em defensive enthusiasm and a personal triumph for the 21-year-old Alex Dombrandt, a back-row turning out for Cardiff Met University this time last year. At 6ft 4in and 19 stone the man of the match is a conspicuous force, despite not possessing the chiselled physique of most aspiring young pros. As his head coach, Paul Gustard, succinctly put it: “He’s still got a rig from university but the kid can play rugby.” Despite having represented Wales U20 in 2017 as a student the so-called “Dominator” is English and is ineligible for the senior Wales team. Quins, either way, are benefiting from his no-nonsense carrying and will now be targeting two more wins over Leicester and Wasps either side of Christmas to pull them clear of the increasingly dog-eat-dog relegation scrap."
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The other thing I like about him is that he is a Quin though and though. I believe that this is the team he used to come and support while at school.
Probably group him together with Marler, Chis brothers, Lambo, Brown, etc in this regard.
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Agree with the Easter comparison. Minty seemed to remain upright a lot of the time! Very hard player to put down.
As for Chis Jr, I think he's becoming as important to the team as Robshaw has been. The great thing is that they are still young and have plenty of years left, hopefully.
I can see us being in a position where we either rotate the back row to help with keeping the guys fit, or select different combinations depending on the opposition.
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England would be crazy not to look at ‘the dominator’ Alex Dombrandt
stuart barnes
Fewer than a handful of Premiership games under his belt for Harlequins and 21 years of age, the instinct is to laugh at the possibility of such a rookie bolting into international contention. You may chortle at the suggestion that Harlequins’ Alex Dombrandt could even be considered for the 2023 World Cup, let alone the one racing towards us in Japan. A half-chuckle might have escaped me, too, as I typed that. After all, what happened to the ten-match Barnes rule? Never judge a player until he has double-figure digits’ worth of professional games to his name.
I’ll tell you what happened to it. When someone so suited to the style of the national team turns up on a Friday night against Exeter Chiefs, you rip the rules up. Isn’t that the point of a law? Against one of the top two sides in England, Dombrandt delivered a performance that was tailor-made for the way that England play.
(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F4a898a58-f659-11e8-a7ad-f292e75f50c3.jpg?crop=2544%2C1696%2C0%2C0&resize=600)
Dombrandt, right, started his first league game for Harlequins last month
PATRICK KHACHFE/JMP/REX
The former Wales Under-20 international (he was available for the Six Nations as a resident student but is English born and bred) blasted into the resolute defence of Exeter and often came out the other side of their rigid line. Whereas the Chiefs’ choice of weapon is the stultifying pick and drive, inch by inch, the young blind-side flanker hurtled into the heart of the opposition.
Eddie Jones dismisses club rugby as a guide to the Test game for a few reasons. One is the perceived gulf, which is the most debated suggestion. The other is the sheer incapacity of some players to adjust from a game plan that is anathema to the national team’s mould. Men like Don Armand, Alex Goode and Christian Wade are examples cited by the England coach.
But the “dominator”, as it appears he was nicknamed and will continue to be known, is the exact opposite. His dramatic carrying game is made for Jones and his team. Wind back the clock to the England game against New Zealand last month. In the first 25 minutes of that match, England were every bit as good as Ireland a week later.
They played it about as near to “pure” as any English rugby style of play can be described. None of these slow, nurturing pods. Instead, big men running hard on to passes from the scrum half. The All Blacks, battered by the storming of their fringes, called reinforcements in from the wider channels and England found Chris Ashton in the most open of spaces to score their first try. That was the brand of English game which had the All Blacks reaching for their crash helmets in the second test of the 2014 tour to New Zealand.
It has not been easy to squeeze such dynamism from English carriers. Watch Leicester a day after the Harlequins victory and see Dan Cole, a veteran Test player, static every time that he touched the ball. There is an infestation of pods. It works for the latching men of Devon but it doesn’t necessarily translate into the Test arena — club forwards on their heels find the transition to on-your-toes Test rugby difficult.
This kid wouldn’t. He clearly doesn’t know any other way to play. Cardiff Met let his inner beast rampage and the mini online show reel from those days is impressive. The lines are sharp, the depth of his runs almost old-fashioned. He comes on to the pass at a rattle. That’s just student rugby. Yet on Friday night it was against one of the most niggardly defences in the land. Still he smashed his way over the gainline.
The rest of the 6ft 4in and 19st blind-side’s game was good but it was the cutting edge of his carries that was so compelling. Here is a natural weapon for England to refine. I am not suggesting that he is the best blind-side flanker in the country. I have only watched him closely the once. But on the grounds of that game, he is without doubt one of the most natural ball-carrying players available to Jones.
In countries like Australia, teenagers with barely any experience are often thrown into the Test arena because of the shortage of professional players. Sometimes, having as many professionals as England can be as much a problem as advantage. Jones comes from the Australian culture of making more of less. He flirted with Marcus Smith as an apprentice. He has brought Bath’s Zach Mercer through in a season. Is it so unbelievable that Jones will not want an immediate look at such a devastating runner?
The Harlequin would probably find the mental challenge of 80 minutes too much (although he went the distance without flagging against the Chiefs). However, as a 20-minute cameo, either battering opposition from the beginning or upping the speed and intensity of the carrying game in the last quarter, he gave notice that he could cause consternation in the most organised of defensive ranks.
He reminds me of my old Bath team-mate, the blind-side Jon Hall. Before knee injuries slowed him, Jon was the most incisive of carriers. Like Dombrandt, he possessed pace, power and timing; the holy trinity for a back-row ball-carrier. He will probably be compared more often to the old Harlequins legend, Mickey Skinner, but Dombrandt’s threat is on another dimension.
Conservatives will say it is mad to bring a kid into the squad after so little professional experience. Thinking of how England want to play, I’d say it would be insane to ignore him.
Dombrandt’s three games
v Newcastle Falcons
48 Metres made — more than any other forward in the match
16 Tackles made — second only to Jack Clifford’s 18
v Worcester Warriors
10 Tackles — the most of any Harlequins player
13 Carries — most among Harlequins forwards
v Exeter Chiefs
10 Tackles — more than any other Harlequin
57 Metres — most made by a forward
7 Defenders beaten — most by any player
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Wow! Barnes likes a Quins player?
He is seriously good, I just hope his natural athleticism and combination of pace and power doesn't get lost in the "professional" training.
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I feel sorry for him. The only thing that could be a worse kiss of death for his career is if Jeremy Guscott jumped on the bandwagon...
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Yeah agreed - I do wonder sometimes if Smith has lost that magic because they’ve made him look increasingly like a human’s head stuck on a toy weightlifter.
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Makes you wonder what the disadvantages of a 'University Rig' actually are? Interested if anyone has a view - if he becomes a gym monkey and had a 'professional rig' - will he be an even better player, more resilient, recover quicker, play more games? Played a full 80 on Friday and got MOTM so didnt seem to be a disadvantage so far!
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I think thats a good point by JJquin. Sometimes coaches etc have to remember what got a player to where they are in the first place. Different sport I know, but cricket as an example. Player scoring shed loads of runs for his county batting at 3, picked for his national side and comes in at 6 as he is not ready for international bowling up the order, then dont pick him. Youve picked a player based on his performances for his club, why then try and change him. Dombrandt played a blinder against a top side friday night. Armand, Ewers and Kvesic is a top quality back row and (in my own view of course) would not look out of place at international level as a unit.
Dombrandt is getting this good press based on what he is now, why try and change that.
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Makes you wonder what the disadvantages of a 'University Rig' actually are? Interested if anyone has a view - if he becomes a gym monkey and had a 'professional rig' - will he be an even better player, more resilient, recover quicker, play more games? Played a full 80 on Friday and got MOTM so didnt seem to be a disadvantage so far!
His centre of gravity will currently be lower than if he goes all gym monkey and beefs up his chest - currently harder to take down.
It's science...
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I have a recollection (which means I could be imagining it) of Alan Tait playing at centre for Scotland and the Lions. They basically ripped up his diet sheet because he used to eat loads of chips. It seemed the prepared diet just hindered him. He wasn't a bad player either.
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I have a recollection (which means I could be imagining it) of Alan Tait playing at centre for Scotland and the Lions.
You didn't imagine it - that did indeed happen. ;D
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Easter told the story of being aware that he was close to being cut from the squad before the 2007 RWC because of his BMI. So he sat next to the nutritionist on the plane and asked "What can I eat if I want to get down to my target weight by the end of the camp?". The answer he got was "Tuna and tomatoes". So that's what he ate for the entire camp.
Dedication. I couldn't have done that. For one thing, I hate both tuna and tomatoes...
But what Quins should do is find out whatever it was that Sarries did to Will Skelton, and do that to Dombrandt. Skelton went from being a scary physical presence but basically an immobile lump to quite an impressive athlete over the closed season. Imagine what they could do for a player who's already scary and mobile.
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You didn't imagine it - that did indeed happen. ;D
So I'm not going totally mad... I got one part right!
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Easter told the story of being aware that he was close to being cut from the squad before the 2007 RWC because of his BMI. So he sat next to the nutritionist on the plane and asked "What can I eat if I want to get down to my target weight by the end of the camp?". The answer he got was "Tuna and tomatoes". So that's what he ate for the entire camp.
Dedication. I couldn't have done that. For one thing, I hate both tuna and tomatoes...
But what Quins should do is find out whatever it was that Sarries did to Will Skelton, and do that to Dombrandt. Skelton went from being a scary physical presence but basically an immobile lump to quite an impressive athlete over the closed season. Imagine what they could do for a player who's already scary and mobile.
Well, I quite like both tuna and tomatoes. I need to lose some weight. Did he just eat tin after tin of tuna, or what?
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I think thats a good point by JJquin. Sometimes coaches etc have to remember what got a player to where they are in the first place. Different sport I know, but cricket as an example. Player scoring shed loads of runs for his county batting at 3, picked for his national side and comes in at 6 as he is not ready for international bowling up the order, then dont pick him. Youve picked a player based on his performances for his club, why then try and change him. Dombrandt played a blinder against a top side friday night. Armand, Ewers and Kvesic is a top quality back row and (in my own view of course) would not look out of place at international level as a unit.
Dombrandt is getting this good press based on what he is now, why try and change that.
Because he could be even better?
I don’t think I’d equate playing players out of position with improving their strength and conditioning from an amateur to a professional level. It’s a slightly odd idea that, coming out of a few years at uni into 3 premiership games, he’ll already be at his phyiscal peak and the coaches shouldn’t try to improve him for fear of ruining him
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Because he could be even better?
I don’t think I’d equate playing players out of position with improving their strength and conditioning from an amateur to a professional level. It’s a slightly odd idea that, coming out of a few years at uni into 3 premiership games, he’ll already be at his phyiscal peak and the coaches shouldn’t try to improve him for fear of ruining him
No sure, but I think it's just the idea that he's got great natural talent as a "stop me if you can" player that we hope that turning him into a gym-bunny protein monster won't ruin.
Smith looks like someone's inflated his body but forgot his head.
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Well, I quite like both tuna and tomatoes. I need to lose some weight. Did he just eat tin after tin of tuna, or what?
I think it's just that for every meal he was allowed a carefully measured portion of tuna and tomatoes - probably ensuring he got enough protein without piling on additional carbs. He might have been able to mix in a few onions and some greenery to make a faux salad nicoise, I suppose. Bear in mind he would also have been training 3 sessions per day...
As for Dombrandt, while there's a long and honourable tradition of No 8s whose impact is as big as their girth, ranging from Walrdom and Easter to Deano himself, he looks to me like he could comfortably lose half a stone and trade another stone for muscle, and be a faster and stronger version of what he is today. The trick is to know what body composition makes the most of each player's talents.
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I think it's just that for every meal he was allowed a carefully measured portion of tuna and tomatoes - probably ensuring he got enough protein without piling on additional carbs. He might have been able to mix in a few onions and some greenery to make a faux salad nicoise, I suppose. Bear in mind he would also have been training 3 sessions per day...
As for Dombrandt, while there's a long and honourable tradition of No 8s whose impact is as big as their girth, ranging from Walrdom and Easter to Deano himself, he looks to me like he could comfortably lose half a stone and trade another stone for muscle, and be a faster and stronger version of what he is today. The trick is to know what body composition makes the most of each player's talents.
Yeah exactly this.
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As both JK and Gustard mentioned after the game, Dombrandt is really not in shape. The footage from the dressing room backs this up. Would be interesting to see what he's capable of once we've fixed that.
Not in shape for what? Rugby? He was everywhere on Friday night, didn't tire and turned in an 80 minute MOTM performance! What more do you want? People obsess too much over shape, size and how much you can bench press. There are countless players out there that disprove this way of thinking!
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I don't think anyone his criticising his performance at all, nor is anyone obsessed with how much he bench presses. Gustard just made a jokey remark about how "he's been signed out of university - and he still has a rig from university". The fact that he's still got a way to go before being in the condition of an elite professional athlete is something to be excited about given the level at which he's already performing.
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But literally no one said he was out of shape
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Don't worry, he'll get injured soon :(
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make a faux salad nicoise,
There's posh for you.
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Not in shape for what? Rugby? He was everywhere on Friday night, didn't tire and turned in an 80 minute MOTM performance! What more do you want? People obsess too much over shape, size and how much you can bench press. There are countless players out there that disprove this way of thinking!
He was asked to do very little given our dominance of possession. He tired noticebaly against Wuss.
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There's posh for you.
Not unless you spell salade nicoise correctly.
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Not unless you spell salade nicoise correctly.
I think you'll find its 'salade niçoise'. :)
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Marcus seems to have bulked up a lot since last season but has rather stalled on his great start. Can we compare with Dombrandt and his ‘unpremiership’ fit look?
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1) "second season syndrome" is highly common and affects even great players like Itoje.
2) I'm not sure Smith is stalling at all. Just a mix of regression to the mean to a degree, more sensible and less forced management and underrating of how he is actually playing
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I'm definitely not underrating how he's actually playing. His kicking out of hand has been really really poor and cost us -- and he got hauled off at half-time last time he started.
He may well be a superstar but he's definitely having a wobble.
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Well I think it's (relatively) easy when you're an unknown to come in and show what you're made of. No-one expects anything, if you screw up people were expecting it, if you shine you shine brighter. Then you start to think about what you're doing... It's like trying to think about how you walk, it's never so effortless when you're consciously thinking of where your feet go, how you swing the leg, how you keep the arms in time etc... Marcus will come though this I'm sure.
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There's also the fact that after a breakout season, oppositions who were previously underestimating what a player can do, especially one his age, will now be up to speed with what he can do, where some of his weaknesses are, and alter their offense and defence patterns accordingly...
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There's also the fact that after a breakout season, oppositions who were previously underestimating what a player can do, especially one his age, will now be up to speed with what he can do, where some of his weaknesses are, and alter their offense and defence patterns accordingly...
Totally, I'm not on a massive downer on him, he's just having a wobble that's all - and as you say, needs to make the next step to work out what to do when people have sussed out the game that took him all the way to this level.