ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: Le Tiss on Tuesday 18-Dec-2018, 08:28*
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https://www.ruck.co.uk/harlequinss-greatest-players-is-this-quins-greatest-all-time-xv/3/
one or two surprising names here - Adam Jones for one?
and no i dont know how to put a link in correctly because i am technically stupid......good lord it worked :)
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Andrew Harriman, Paul Ackford, Bob Hillier, Daren O'Leary (if not just since the Pro-era) are missing in my opinion, at least from the discussion.
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The article is basically click bait, guess it's just the "biggest" names rather than any actual assessment of their contribution in that position for the club.
Jones is obvs one of the best ever and a total legend -- but none of that legend really comes from his time with us.
His greatest contribution for us has been turning Sink into the player he is now -- from not great at scrummaging "trouble" (media only) into England's best player of the autumn.
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Mind you, Bomb was also pretty spectacular when at very short notice he went from being on a weekend off to playing 74minutes on the Loosehead side against Northampton in the last season he played for us!
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- No Andre Vos either(!!)
- Nor Jamie Salmon. Keith 'Uncle Fester' Wood. Dan Luger was part of the 2013 RWC winning team too.
-Interesting, innit? - Brown vs Hiller (or Jim Staples?), Vos vs Robshaw, Moore vs Wood...…… etc etc
- One thing is sure, we'd have one hellova bench!
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I started coming to Quins in 1995. For me - it would be:
15. Brown
14. O'Leary
13. Carling
12. Greenwood
11. Monye
10. Evans
9. Care
8. Easter
7. Vos
6. Robshaw
5. Llewellyn
4. Kohn
3. Ross
2. Wood
1. Leonard
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The definitive list -
Brown, Williams, Lowe, Turner-Hall, Monye; Evans, Care; Marler, Gray, Johnston, Kohn, Robson, Fa'asavalu, Robshaw, Easter.
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Mind you, Bomb was also pretty spectacular when at very short notice he went from being on a weekend off to playing 74minutes on the Loosehead side against Northampton in the last season he played for us!
I was discussing that performance at a dinner just last night. Those 74 minutes are probably the fastest transition to legendary status I've seen in a sportsman. But if we consider him at loosehead I am not sure he'd displace either Marler or Leonard.
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Wood vs Moore is a real close contest, reflecting their real life rivalry ;)
https://youtu.be/qjxVHOrWc0w
Peter Winterbottom vs Robshaw would have been an interesting contest as well - I know they are both included here - but they really personify the differences in the amateur and the professional game for me. Natural flair and agression vs Pure work rate.
Disappointed that Ackford isn't in there as well. It won't be a popular view, I know, but I firmly believe that if Dooley and Ackford were pros now, they would absolutely pound a pairing like Etzebeth and De Jaager or Whitelock and Retallick, just on sheer agression alone.
Ah, the 80s. Them were the days.....
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Robshaw's skillset was a mile ahead of Winterbottom. Can't imagine Winters ever putting in the sort of all-court display that Robshaw would regularly produce at 7, and he was never as good an international flanker.
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Winterbottom was one of the hardest men I've ever seen on a rugby pitch. I'd love to have seen what he'd have been like under professionalism!
I'd definitely have him, Moore and Ackford in any pack. All RWC finalists.
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No David Wilson? Though competition at the flank is fierce. And I'd have Garrick Morgan and Ackford ahead of Kohn.
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The pack that got left out would be pretty useful:
Johnston
Wood
Mullins
Coker
Ackford
Wilson
Vos
Langhorn
And still no space for Mickey Skinner, Nick Easter, Tony Diprose, Chris Sheasby, Wavell Wakefield
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The pack that got left out would be pretty useful:
Johnston
Wood
Mullins
Coker
Ackford
Wilson
Vos
Langhorn
And still no space for Mickey Skinner, Nick Easter, Tony Diprose, Chris Sheasby, Wavell Wakefield
Blimey, I'd forgotten that Troy Coker was a Quin! Total legend in the '91 World Cup winning side.
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Winterbottom is first name in any England or Quins team for me. Dewy-eyed nostalgia to an extent, but based on the fact that he was quality, hard as nails and a real leader. Imagine if he had had a run in the professional era?
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How is nobody picking Mickey Skinner even if just for the banter and drinking games.
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Maybe we should have 2 teams: the best and the hardest. Front row of Claxton, Claxton, and Claxton would be my starter.
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For me Lowe takes it at 13
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I don’t know how you ever pick a best XV as it’s all down to who remembers who. The only way I can see how you would do it is to break it down into eras. Then pick out the outstanding player from each one . I think you would have to then split it between amateur and professional. Is anybody old enough to remember any players from the sixties backwards apart from Adrian Stoop? Nobody has nominated him as yet but from what I’ve read he’s a contender.
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These things are as frustrating and futile as they are fun!
Nobody mentioned Fuga? Some would choose Jones and Ross at prop, but who would overlook Jase? Gareth Llewellyn? Robshaw is a must... Isn't he? Look at the competition. For me he's definitely there. And what about Big Mo? Winterbottom was a hard player, but Mo...
Great fun, but absolutely impossible to judge!
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These things are as frustrating and futile as they are fun!
Nobody mentioned Fuga? Some would choose Jones and Ross at prop, but who would overlook Jase? Gareth Llewellyn? Robshaw is a must... Isn't he? Look at the competition. For me he's definitely there. And what about Big Mo? Winterbottom was a hard player, but Mo...
Great fun, but absolutely impossible to judge!
Ahhh good old Tani Fuga! He would be my choice! I remember his last competitive game when he took the kick! Great player and great all round guy
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As I say -- maybe we should do our own but let's not give the clickbait article the benefit. It's specifically designed to increase ad revenue.
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2006 for me so only counting players I've seen for Quins:
15- Brown. Consistently great at club level, effective even now as an Int, great attitude and legend
15- Monye. Shame about his one handed holding technique for the Lions, and having to play FB rather than Wing for England. But at his pomp singlehandedly gave Quins a competent kick chase
13- Lowe. Sadly ruined by injury but classy, smooth link in attack and one of the most underrated defensive centres in the AP when fit. Would have loved him to get a chance for England, had the mind to be a Conrad Smith style international 13.
12- Greenwood. Played even in the relegated team that I started supporting, and possibly England's best ever 12 (despite not wearing it).
11- Strettle. Now a steady, consistent winger with all round game, but at Quins his step was untouchable and he oozed flair in a way few English wingers did at that time.
10- Evans. Possibly the best long term import from the Southern hemisphere in the Premiership, at various stages offered match winning goal kicking, tactical kicking, drop kicking and game management but at all times was the amazing conductor of the Quins attack
9- Care. At his best, the metronome of our attack and an everpresent individual threat.
8- Easter. A unique 8 with his handling, positioning and approach to the carry (not power so much as refusal to go down), impossible to replace
7- Andre Vos. A giant of the game and another big reason in the repromotion of Quins.
6- Robshaw. Captained Quins to the title. Captained England and still an asset to them. Played a final basically all at 10 whilst doing an openside's job too. Only player to have won AP player of the year twice, happens to have been in 2 positions (6 and 7)
5- Horwill. Still his career with Quins is young but makes a huge difference when he plays and can deaf the team over the line by himself
4- Kohn. A monster whose power in the carry added much but also singlehandedly made Quins' Scrum dangerous and not from the front row
3- Ross. The turning point when Quins' scrums became a weapon not a liability for a while again
2 - Fuga. A warrior whose work around the pitch made him invaluable
1- Marler. Early Marler was weak in the Scrum but learnt quickly and carried with immense power and surprising pace and subtlety, as well as having soft hands. Late Marler is one of the best scrummagers in the world with a huge work rate and crushing defence.
16- Ceri Jones, 17- Gray (at his best), 18- Sinckler, 19- Robson, 20- Big Mo (I think James Chisholm will be though, and Clifford possibly in the mix), 21- Gomarsall, 22- Mehrtens, 23- Tom Williams (Marchant will be one)
Missing lots of big names from before then, but I can't really comment on players that I never saw play live
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For me it would be:
1. Marler
2. Moore
3. Leonard
4. Ackford
5. Dooley
6. Skinner
7. Winterbottom
8. Easter
9. Loveridge
10. Evans
11. Monye
12. Greenwood
13. Woodward
14. Harriman
15. Hiller
Subs
Mullins, Johnston, Morgan, Vos, Care, LeCroix, Carling, Brown
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First game of 2003 season was my first time at the Stoop, so based on players seen since then...
1. Leonard
2. Fuga
3. Ross
4. Kohn
5. Robson
6. Robshaw
7. Vos
8. Easter
9. Care
10. Evans
11. Monye
12. Greenwood
13. Lowe
14. Strettle
15. Brown
16. Tiatia
17. Marler
18. Johnston
19. Horwill
20. Skinner
21. Gommars
22. Burke
23. Keogh
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Robshaw's skillset was a mile ahead of Winterbottom. Can't imagine Winters ever putting in the sort of all-court display that Robshaw would regularly produce at 7, and he was never as good an international flanker.
Why the past tense?
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Unintentional, but anyway I don't think he has the same skillset now. The Robshaw that tore it up for so many seasons doesn't really exist any more - we don't see the creative side of his game these days.
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Well if we are talking about greatest as men, the 60 unavailable for selection when play resumed in 1919 must be up there.
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Do you really think we are?
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Well I have been thinking and this is my pick
15. Mike Brown
14. Tom Williams
13. Will Greenwood
12. Jordan Turner-Hall
11. Ugo Monye
10. Nick Evans
9. Danny Care
8. Nick Easter
7. Peter Winterbottom
6. Chris Robshaw
5. Paul Ackford
4. Ollie Kohn
3. Kyle Sinckler
2. Keith Wood
1. Jason Leonard
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If we're talking Quins form then I'd have JTH over Greenwood since I started watching regularly (2001/02ish). I always thought Greenwood was far better for England than he was for Quins -maybe something to do with having better players around him.
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Andy Harriman on the right wing, no contest.
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1. Jason Leonard
2. Brian Moore
3. James Johnston
4. Paul Ackford
5. Troy Coker
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Peter Winterbottom
8. Mickey Skinner
9. Danny Care
10. Nick Evans
11. Ugo Monye
12. Will Greenwood
13. Will Carling
14. Andrew Harriman
15. Mike Brown
16. Keith Wood 17. Joe Marler 18. Kyle Sinkler 19. Nick Easter 20. Wavell Wakefield 21. Nick Duncombe 21. Adrian Stoop 22. Darren O'Leary
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1. Jason Leonard
2. Brian Moore
3. James Johnston
4. Paul Ackford
5. Troy Coker
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Peter Winterbottom
8. Nick Easter
9. Danny Care
10. Nick Evans
11. Ugo Monye
12. Will Greenwood
13. Will Carling
14. Andy Harriman
15. Mike Brown
16. Keith Wood 17. Joe Marler 18. Kyle Sinkler 19. Olly Kohn 20. Andre Vos 21. Andy Gomarsall 22. Adrian Stoop 23. Jim Staples
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If we are pulling out names from the deep past, then Ronald Poulton would get into the centres.
England Captain of his time and the last player before Chris Ashton to score 4 tries in a game for England.
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/12823257/the-remarkable-story-ronald-poulton-palmer
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Last player to score 4 tries before Ashton in a Five/Six Nations game - Rory Underwood (vs Fiji) and Josh Lewsey (vs Uruguay) scored 5 in a game between those two.
Chris Oti (vs Romania), Neil Back (vs Netherlands), Jerry Guscott x2 (vs Netherlands - same game as Back, and vs USA) and our very own Nick Easter (vs Wales - World Cup warm up) all scored 4 in a game in that period.
If we are pulling out names from the deep past, then Ronald Poulton would get into the centres.
England Captain of his time and the last player before Chris Ashton to score 4 tries in a game for England.
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/12823257/the-remarkable-story-ronald-poulton-palmer
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Watching since 76/77
1. Jason Leonard
2. Brian Moore
3. Andy Mullins
4. Paul Ackford
5. Andy Haden
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Peter Winterbottom
8. Nick Easter
9. Danny Care
10. Nick Evans
11. Ugo Monye
12. Will Greenwood
13. Simon Halliday
14. Andy Harriman
15. Mike Brown
Was torn with choosing Will Darling and Kyle Sincker
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I think we're talking a motivated Andy Harriman, not the guy that skipped midweek training and just turned up for fun on the Saturday! :)
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I think we're talking a motivated Andy Harriman, not the guy that skipped midweek training and just turned up for fun on the Saturday! :)
I think a lot of them in those days skipped training or turned up pi$$ed (Brian Moore), or were unavailable as they were surfing in Hawaii (Chris Butcher), then again they weren't professional 😀
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1. Joe Marler
2. Brian Moore
3. Jason Leonard
4. Paul Ackford
5. Gareth Llewellyn
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Peter Winterbottom
8. Nick Easter
9. Danny Care
10. Nick Easter
11. Daren O'Leary
12 Will Carling
13 Will Greenwood
14 Ugo Monye
15 Mike Brown
With possibly one of the worlds best "Game Changing" benches@
16 Keith Wood
17 Kyle Sinckler
18 Adam Jones
19 Zinzan Brooke (Easter moves to 2nd row)
20 Andrew Vos
21 Nick Duncombe
22 Simon Halliday
23 Andrew Harriman
That said of the players I have seen it feel wrong to be leaving out: Mickey Skinner, Troy Coker, Thierry Lacroix, Laurent Cabannes, Dan Luger, Jamie Salmon, Chris Sheasby, Jim Staples, David Wilson, Adam Jones, Andy Mullins, Andrew Mehrtens, David Strettle, Pat Sanderson and not forgetting a personal favourite of mine David Pears