ComeAllWithin
Rugby => ComeAllWithin Board => Topic started by: TomBuckQuin on Tuesday 22-Jan-2019, 17:59*
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46965380
WHAT DOES MARCHANT HAVE TO DO?! >:(
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Play a more conventional style.
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His day will come I am sure.
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Eddie needs a 10!
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46965380
WHAT DOES MARCHANT HAVE TO DO?! >:(
Be injured for a long period and barely play a competitive game for your club.
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So he's replaced Farell with JJ a 10/12 with a 13? Further muddying the centre selection....
Looks like Shields is out too, bit early for Robshaw, guess Wilson might get the call?
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Shields out is hardly a loss. Would anyone notice?
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Marchant needs to improve game involvement.
If shields is out then surely the Dominator needs a call up.
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Marchant needs to improve game involvement.
If shields is out then surely the Dominator needs a call up.
Not really sure how much more involved you want the guy to be. In defence I'd say he has one of the best tackles made/missed ratios in the squad (wouldn't be surprised if it's in the 90+ percentile) and his pace means he never has to jump out of the line - he's solid as they come. In attack I really don't see that he has any weaknesses. He's electric. By far one of our most consistent performers too - and at the level he's performing, that's really saying something. He has international pace for sure, he's strong in the tackle, he has an engine that would see him through a game and a half... What more do you ask of a 13?
By "game involvement" I can only imagine that you mean he needs to work on winning turnovers or his kicking game? Sure, if he can add getting over the ball to his long list of strengths then all the better, but he does it occasionally and it's definitely not a glaring weakness. And I'd refute asking him to work on his kicking game - keep the ball in the guy's hands!
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He is a fantastic player, as Nonu was for the All Blacks, however he didn't stop improving, in the end he became a great all round centre with kicking one of his strengths.
At the moment, he does not have JJs defensive skills and short kicking game or Slades distribution and kicking ability. JJ is a proven international and Eddie trusts those that have performed for him in the past, hence the recall for JJ and even Clifford.
Marchant is still young but with a huge future ahead of him. The youngsters are starting to catch him up eg Dingwall from the Saints and the young kid Lawrence at Warriors.
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Agree to disagree on this one I think! Kicking was never one of Nonu's strengths for a start - so he didn't kick much and was very, very effective going forward. Obviously a 12 but still...
Also disagree that he doesn't have defensive skills equal to JJ. JJ often jumps out of the line and creates dog legs - Marchant rarely. Slade for me is the man to supplant - he's been great for England lately - but I'd have Marchant and Tompkins fighting it out in behind (assuming we're treating Manu as a 12). I don't care how proven JJ is - he's been injured the whole season. He played his first game of the season this weekend just gone. Clifford has at least strung a bunch of games together.
Dingwall is too light for now and Lawrence has a handful of starts for Warriors. They're nowhere near Marchant who, although still young, has been our Prem starting 13 ever since G-Lowe's unfortunate injury problems/retirement - and I can't remember him having a bad game. Honestly, I can't.
I'm not one to get carried away about our players but he is a natural class act.
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I remember watching Marchant play in the U20s alongside the son of a friend. While the commentators were getting all excited about Johnny Williams, it was noticeable to anyone who was actually watching the game that Marchant was creating the opportunities and was also the player the ball went to when England are in trouble. His reading of the game was clearly a class apart.
I'm surprised he hasn't been called up - though he would have got a chance 18 months ago or so but for his toe injury - but I imagine that Eddie feels he doesn't need to introduce new talent in the centres at this stage of the RWC cycle.
I'd expect him to have his chance this autumn, though. He'd make a good 23rd man, able to come on in the last 20 minutes and exploit tired legs after 60 minutes of Manu bashing it up.
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JJ is class - his defensive reads have both saved and created tries for England before. However...that was under PG's defence regime, not sure how he will fit into Mitchell's.
Plus, if Tuilagi is fit - Eddie won't be able to resist, so JJ, Slade, Marchant and Tompkins go into the queue - unless he goes with Manu at 12, in which case a distributor like Slade or Loz makes sense.
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I wouldnt mind Manu at 12 and Daly at 13
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I wouldnt mind Manu at 12 and Daly at 13
The back line I wanted to see before the WC:
9 Robson
10 Farrell
11 May
12 Tuilagi
13 Marchant
14 Cokanasiga
15 Brown
That set of backs has every kind of threat and wouldn't leak tries either (as long as Coka works hard on his defence).
But clearly I'm a dreamer. Oh well, 12 Te'o / 13 Tuilagi it is - who wants the wingers to see the ball anyway? Oh and just for good measure: Daly dropping balls and missing tackles at 15.
*Facepalm*
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EJ may surprise!!
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So he's replaced Farell with JJ a 10/12 with a 13? Further muddying the centre selection....
Looks like Shields is out too, bit early for Robshaw, guess Wilson might get the call?
What do you mean? Wilson is the incumbent - and injured.
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Agree to disagree on this one I think! Kicking was never one of Nonu's strengths for a start - so he didn't kick much and was very, very effective going forward. Obviously a 12 but still...
Also disagree that he doesn't have defensive skills equal to JJ. JJ often jumps out of the line and creates dog legs - Marchant rarely. Slade for me is the man to supplant - he's been great for England lately - but I'd have Marchant and Tompkins fighting it out in behind (assuming we're treating Manu as a 12). I don't care how proven JJ is - he's been injured the whole season. He played his first game of the season this weekend just gone. Clifford has at least strung a bunch of games together.
Dingwall is too light for now and Lawrence has a handful of starts for Warriors. They're nowhere near Marchant who, although still young, has been our Prem starting 13 ever since G-Lowe's unfortunate injury problems/retirement - and I can't remember him having a bad game. Honestly, I can't.
I'm not one to get carried away about our players but he is a natural class act.
Slade has been great for England? Tompkins?
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Henry Slade is so frustrating. He drops the ball so much after contact. I'm still yet to see him string together a few games where he has dominated his opposite 13. He got seriously outplayed against Munster.
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Slade has been great for England? Tompkins?
Yup, Slade was impressive in the autumn - came straight in and looked the business. Tompkins has been playing out of his skin for Sarries. He's in the mix I'm sure. Obviously I'd rather Marchant over all of them because he's our boy - and I do also think he's earned a call-up.
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Personally think JJ is only in the squad to bring him up to speed, with no intentions of him playing v Ireland - in the year he's had out England have got a new defence coach and a new attack coach, so much will be different so the more time he can have before the WC the better. He's been one of EJ's top performers since he took over the reigns in early 2016 and despite his year out is the joint top try-scorer for England under EJ (12, joint with Jonny May), he is an important cog for the WC.
Joe Marchant is one of the most consistent 13s in the prem, but test rugby is very different to premiership rugby, and we are pretty well stocked at 13 right now. He'll get his chance, but Manu, Slade, JJ, and Lozowski (Daly is another option and Te'o too if EJ plays Faz at 12 again), are all well above him in the pecking order. He's only 22, those four all have 3+ years on him, give him time and he'll be in and around there.
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Tompkins is really good now. Slade is such a luxury player, he's just not up to it.
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What do you mean by "luxury player"?
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I see what Jammy means. For me Slade is moments of greatness but also a lot of meh. I rate Tompkins a lot.
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I personally think Slade has improved a lot. When he moved to 13 initially he was very shaky and looked out of his depth - I was ready to write him off. Always thought of him as a 12 and wondered whether he might make an alright full back. Now I get it. He really keeps things moving in the wider channels. It's actually quite useful having a natural distributor in the wider channels these days - especially as there's less and less space in the middle of the field now that players are quite literally double the size they were 20 years ago. Having a bruiser like Manu inside him I think could work really nicely. Slade also has really good feet.
Either way, I'd have Slade + Marchant/Tompkins in the squad instead of Slade + Joseph at the moment. I'm sorry, I understand what people are saying about Joseph being the seasoned pro etc and being in and around the squad to pick up systems ahead of the world cup, but it's more about the precedent it sets. Nobody the likes of Joseph in his current and recent form should be able to just walk (or hobble) into an England squad. There's other players who deserve it more currently - and I mean that on the basis of Joseph's form before his injury lay off (don't know if everyone's forgotten but he was a shadow of himself, regardless of whether or not you can put that down to carrying niggles).
Now if we were talking about a player like Owen Farrell then it's potentially a different story, because he's clearly head and shoulders above the rest in his position - although you could press cases in favour of a Cipriani or a Ford depending on where your allegiances lie. Joseph, on the back of his pre-injury form, is not in that category. 2.5/3 years ago when he was really flying is maybe a different story.
Don't get me wrong, not saying I don't like Joseph as a player. At his best he really is one of the best 13s in the world. But he's not at his best and hasn't been for a while. Make him earn it.
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I personally think Slade has improved a lot. When he moved to 13 initially he was very shaky and looked out of his depth - I was ready to write him off. Always thought of him as a 12 and wondered whether he might make an alright full back. Now I get it. He really keeps things moving in the wider channels. It's actually quite useful having a natural distributor in the wider channels these days - especially as there's less and less space in the middle of the field now that players are quite literally double the size they were 20 years ago. Having a bruiser like Manu inside him I think could work really nicely. Slade also has really good feet.
Either way, I'd have Slade + Marchant/Tompkins in the squad instead of Slade + Joseph at the moment. I'm sorry, I understand what people are saying about Joseph being the seasoned pro etc and being in and around the squad to pick up systems ahead of the world cup, but it's more about the precedent it sets. Nobody the likes of Joseph in his current and recent form should be able to just walk (or hobble) into an England squad. There's other players who deserve it more currently - and I mean that on the basis of Joseph's form before his injury lay off (don't know if everyone's forgotten but he was a shadow of himself, regardless of whether or not you can put that down to carrying niggles).
Now if we were talking about a player like Owen Farrell then it's potentially a different story, because he's clearly head and shoulders above the rest in his position - although you could press cases in favour of a Cipriani or a Ford depending on where your allegiances lie. Joseph, on the back of his pre-injury form, is not in that category. 2.5/3 years ago when he was really flying is maybe a different story.
Don't get me wrong, not saying I don't like Joseph as a player. At his best he really is one of the best 13s in the world. But he's not at his best and hasn't been for a while. Make him earn it.
In theory I agree with your last paragraph but the massive factor for me is that we are in a World Cup year.
It’s almost too late to be adding new players into the mix. Eddie has this 6N to confirm his squad (injury permitting) so those who have been in and around the squad since the Lions tour are basically it.
Assuming therefore that Joseph is highly likely to be in the RWC squad, having him get to know new attack and defence coaches’ systems for the first time during the RWC warm up games feels negligent.
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What do you mean by "luxury player"?
He's the sort of guy you can't rely on but will now and then look amazing. Chiefs can carry him in the hope that he'll provide some sorely needed creativity, but England can't afford his brainfarts and his defensive howlers. He can look a million pounds but is usually a net negative.
TomBuckQuin: I appreciate what Slade brings and it's one of the reasons I like Loz as a 13, but Slade misses an insane number of tackles and makes a lot of errors.