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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: RodneyRegis on Sunday 31-Mar-2024, 14:04*
I'm not sure Borthwick is silly enough to think that Smith is responsible for the performance of his entire team, but you never know.

It also ignores the numerous England games where Farrell, despite his much vaunted leadership skills, has failed to change the course of games for England, either as 10 or captain, and has got on the wrong side of the ref. Care and green gave bath the ball for two of their 50:22 kicks. Lynagh and Herbst were solely to blame for their cards. Not sure Smith can be apportioned much blame for those 4 costly errors
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #16 on: »
Not much Marcus can do if Danny kicks it down Russell’s throat in midfield several times over.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: dittonquin on Sunday 31-Mar-2024, 10:18*
Quins don't seem to have that player at the minute with the character to put a rocket up everyone behind the posts having just conceded a soft try or two. Launchbury, Dommers, Lewies all seem a bit too passive. The person who probably gets the most animated when Quins are in that position is Marcus. I do think if he wants to fend off Fin Smith he needs to demonstrate that he can combine the wonderful stuff we saw in the first half with an ability to help the team wrestle back control and re-gain composure in difficult periods. Maybe making him captain could help him develop this area for both club and country and perhaps help to stave off the risk of a move to France at the same time?

In recent seasons it seems to have been Marler who bucks u the team.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #18 on: »
Have to question what was going on in Smudgers mind when he kicked to touch with seconds on the clock
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: SiB on Sunday 31-Mar-2024, 17:10*
Have to question what was going on in Smudgers mind when he kicked to touch with seconds on the clock

Indeed. And the commentary team saying it was a really good idea because bath had to go the length...
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #20 on: »
An interesting thread. I've a slightly different, more upbeat take:

1. It's focusing on the negative rather than the positive. The core of the team remains from the 2021/22 winning season. There are plenty of examples of us wrestling back momentum. This thread is focusing on a sample size of the last two games...

2. Lots of teams have taken a shellacking or two this season, particularly away from home. Sarries on Friday night... Exeter today...

I don't think this is a uniquely Quins problem, and I'd argue that we're one of the top teams of putting points on the board when momentum is with us (along with Saints and Sarries).

I get the calls for a totemic leader who, after conceding a try or two,  gathers the troops under the sticks and reads the riots act, but realistically who is that? I think that's an oversimplification and I'd point to point 2 above which would suggest no other team has got said leader either.

I enjoy our attacking intent and the Quins DNA, but what I would like to see is a noticeably different template when we play away from home against the best sides. We saw it away to Sale last season, with solid defence and Marcus kicking to turn.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #21 on: »
Leftfield suggestion but does the captain have to be the one reading the riot act?

If you have a player who is a guaranteed starter and gets on well with refs, make that person captain. They can do all the official stuff.

Somebody else can do the bollockings within the team.

My understanding is that this is to some extent the model Warburton used with AWJ for Wales and then POC with the Lions.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #22 on: »
Possibly. But I'm not sure it really works like that with quins for whatever reason. How many times have we seen a couple of top personnel missing and the rest look like lost puppies as a result?

Robshaw just seemed to the manner born as soon as he broke through, to the extent that I think he was debut 2008, player of the season 2009, captain 2010, off the back of bloodgate. A year letter a letter of apology to the fans for a woeful performance, before turning everything around? My memory is hazy at the best of times so may be chronologically nonsense. But either way.

Then England captain in his 2nd test?

Absolute Brierley character. That what quins players need.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #23 on: »
Quote from: Yareet on Sunday 31-Mar-2024, 23:52*
Leftfield suggestion but does the captain have to be the one reading the riot act?

If you have a player who is a guaranteed starter and gets on well with refs, make that person captain. They can do all the official stuff.

Somebody else can do the bollockings within the team.

My understanding is that this is to some extent the model Warburton used with AWJ for Wales and then POC with the Lions.

No it doesn't and you make a valuable point in that the best sides have multiple leaders. There isn't an over-reliance on a single individual.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #24 on: »
There’s a book called The Captain Class, which studied teams that had a long run of successful performance and found that the one thing they had in common was a captain who wasn’t necessarily the best player on the team, but was the hardest working and the one who the rest of the team knew would go into battle for them, whether with the opposition, the ref, or occasionally taking a penalty for the team.

Robshaw fit that mould almost perfectly - though you wouldn’t have seen him putting in a cheap shot. The current squad doesn’t really have anyone in that mould, at least not who is playing regularly. You could see Steph or Chis or even Lawday in that role; but none of them are regular starters at their current state of fitness.

Incidentally, the book was written by Americans, so it waxes lyrical about basketball players and ice hockey players and deigns to consider the occasional soccer player while glossing over the single best example of what they’re talking about in a single paragraph.

If you’re going to write a book about captains who have presided over an extended period of dominance in a team sport, you’d think that you’d do your research well enough to spend some time on Richie McCaw, wouldn’t you?
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #25 on: »
Quote from: poorfour on Monday 01-Apr-2024, 08:45*
There’s a book called The Captain Class, which studied teams that had a long run of successful performance and found that the one thing they had in common was a captain who wasn’t necessarily the best player on the team, but was the hardest working and the one who the rest of the team knew would go into battle for them, whether with the opposition, the ref, or occasionally taking a penalty for the team.

Robshaw fit that mould almost perfectly - though you wouldn’t have seen him putting in a cheap shot. The current squad doesn’t really have anyone in that mould, at least not who is playing regularly. You could see Steph or Chis or even Lawday in that role; but none of them are regular starters at their current state of fitness.

Would disagree with the idea the team doesn't have that person. Will Evans sure exemplifies doing the hard graft, under-the-radar stuff and goes about business. Gives 8/10 every single week. I don't know what he's like off the field of course but if you're going to pick Robshaw v2 then WEv would seem the obvious choice.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #26 on: »
He's a possibility, but I've not really seen him taking a leadership role on the pitch - he comes across as more of a get on and do it kind of guy. Not to say he couldn't step up, but we've not seen that from him yet.

Having finally got round to watching the Bath game, I wonder if Baxter is a potential future captain. Huge energy on the pitch and (I'm a little surprised to say) in that game Marler didn't add anything when he came on.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #27 on: »
That was Marler during the 6n too. Still a good scrummager, if not as good as he used to be, but offering less around the field. It's just an age thing I reckon.

Agreed on Baxter as a future captain. He's clearly a bright lad and already a "follow me" kind of player. I'm disappointed Dombrandt hasn't turned into the captain I thought he would be but he would make a good VC.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #28 on: »
I think Dommers still could, but he probably needs a bit of a rocket for various reasons. He's an absolute enigma, sometimes he's unbeatable, best player on the pitch by miles, sometimes his physicality and effort falls off a cliff for no discernable reason. Often from minute to minute during a game.
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Re: Lack of leadership
« Reply #29 on: »
A lot of good, and thought-provoking, comments above.

Dommers, yeah, I wonder how much the England in and out isn't helping him in this role. If he was a no for England, then I think he has a different approach and would be a good, consistent choice.

wEV, sadly won't be wearing the rose so could step up and take the mantle. Only consideration being that he is the one that get's pinged when the ref decides he doesn't like the breakdown but if he's the captain, does allow him to have the dialogue and may well change the ref's mind.

What I like about Baxter in this regard is his personality and dry sense of humour. He won't be as big a wind up as Joe and will paint better pictures. I think he's already highly thought of in the squad so could be a good captain in about 2-3 years once he's got the scars.

I think the multiple leaders is sometimes unhelpful, too many voices and you would still have that one leader. The aforementioned Farrell, as an example, I can't see anyone else in the 'leadership group' telling him he's wrong. Be a leader by doing your job well and be that example.
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  3. Lack of leadership