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Author Topic: Rumours  (Read 7274 times)

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Re: Rumours
« Reply #30 on: »
According to Paul Gustard there will be a clear out at the end of the season and we will have a smaller squad. I have the impression that he rates Lewis Boyce so not sure about the rumours that he is off. Lasike and Semi were both brought in cheaply to offer something different to the squad.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #31 on: »
I think that some of the views expressed here suggest that there is some misunderstanding about what it takes to actually gel a squad into a unit of people who function in the optimum way. I've said this before, but I would heartil recommend anyone who has the time to listen to JBs interview with Ben Darwin, whose main job is thinking about optimizing player performance.  You can hear it here;

https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-50bendarwin

For those who don't have the time to listen, the most salient point he makes, in my opinion is how long, on average it takes a player to be in a position,  both mentally and  physically to be an effective squad member.  He's looking at big datasets as well, from across world rugby. The best examples of this in the Prem I guess would be guys like Steenson, Dollman and Whitten at Chiefs, who perform the way they do because they have been allowed to stabilise their performances across a long period.   Consequently it just seems unreasonable to make any sort of judgement on someone like Kunatani as he hasn't been around the squad for 5 minutes and the Head coach (who has an idea of the way he wants his squad to gel) hasn't been around much longer.
Anyway, I offer this as a longer view.  Give the pod a listen if you have a chance. It made me change the way I look at the players here at Quins both as a fan and as someone interested in qualitative data!

Re: Rumours
« Reply #32 on: »
I thought it was generally accepted that it takes 3 years to build a squad. Pretty sure I heard Martin Johnson say it.
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Re: Rumours
« Reply #33 on: »
I thought it was generally accepted that it takes 3 years to build a squad. Pretty sure I heard Martin Johnson say it.

Also John Kingston, but I don't think anyone really listened to him...

But Ben Darwin's point is subtly different - his analysis of players moving teams suggests that it takes 18 months or more for them to fully integrate into a side and start performing at the level they were at before they left, and longer for props in particular because of the technical aspects of the setpiece (everyone emphasises slightly different things, and you have to learn to work with your fellow front rows).

It's hard for us to appreciate this when we're playing or coaching at an amateur level and individual talent can often overcome team cohesion, but at a professional level the margins are even finer and cohesion counts for so much more.

To give two examples - player for player there weren't many in the 2011-12 Quins team who were clearly better than the best of their opponents. NEv. Maybe Robshaw. But we did have a lot of cohesion and a team that started winning and learning to play off each other effectively and it was enough.

More controversial, perhaps, but the All Blacks aren't that much better than their opponents individually. It's their ability to keep playing their system right to the end of games that usually breaks down opponents in the end, even when they go behind. But on Saturday they came up against a team who could match them step for step in sticking to the game.
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Re: Rumours
« Reply #34 on: »
I think that some of the views expressed here suggest that there is some misunderstanding about what it takes to actually gel a squad into a unit of people who function in the optimum way. I've said this before, but I would heartil recommend anyone who has the time to listen to JBs interview with Ben Darwin, whose main job is thinking about optimizing player performance.  You can hear it here;

https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-50bendarwin

For those who don't have the time to listen, the most salient point he makes, in my opinion is how long, on average it takes a player to be in a position,  both mentally and  physically to be an effective squad member.  He's looking at big datasets as well, from across world rugby. The best examples of this in the Prem I guess would be guys like Steenson, Dollman and Whitten at Chiefs, who perform the way they do because they have been allowed to stabilise their performances across a long period.   Consequently it just seems unreasonable to make any sort of judgement on someone like Kunatani as he hasn't been around the squad for 5 minutes and the Head coach (who has an idea of the way he wants his squad to gel) hasn't been around much longer.
Anyway, I offer this as a longer view.  Give the pod a listen if you have a chance. It made me change the way I look at the players here at Quins both as a fan and as someone interested in qualitative data!

Thank you kind sir. I thoroughly enjoyed that listen. Lots of genuine insight, backed up with decent data.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #35 on: »
Jack Clifford made 20+ appearances in his first season and 20+ appearances in his second - he broke himself but still made 13 appearances in his third season - during this time he showed he is a really good player and made his england debut - so yeah i would say as a 25 year old who has made 70+ appearances for a club, who lost a whole season to injury that he is well worth investing in - and can't really be compared to Saili who has missed two seasons of rugby (1 here and 1 at Munster).....

Re: Rumours
« Reply #36 on: »
I think that some of the views expressed here suggest that there is some misunderstanding about what it takes to actually gel a squad into a unit of people who function in the optimum way. I've said this before, but I would heartil recommend anyone who has the time to listen to JBs interview with Ben Darwin, whose main job is thinking about optimizing player performance.  You can hear it here;

https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-50bendarwin

For those who don't have the time to listen, the most salient point he makes, in my opinion is how long, on average it takes a player to be in a position,  both mentally and  physically to be an effective squad member.  He's looking at big datasets as well, from across world rugby. The best examples of this in the Prem I guess would be guys like Steenson, Dollman and Whitten at Chiefs, who perform the way they do because they have been allowed to stabilise their performances across a long period.   Consequently it just seems unreasonable to make any sort of judgement on someone like Kunatani as he hasn't been around the squad for 5 minutes and the Head coach (who has an idea of the way he wants his squad to gel) hasn't been around much longer.
Anyway, I offer this as a longer view.  Give the pod a listen if you have a chance. It made me change the way I look at the players here at Quins both as a fan and as someone interested in qualitative data!

Interesting read, thanks.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #37 on: »
I wouldn’t build a club sandwich around Clifford let alone a club. Even barring the endless injuries, in the three years he’s barely played - the game has moved on. Dunno if his skill set even works in new way of using back 3.

Never get particularly exited to see him back in squad.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #38 on: »
I wouldn’t build a club sandwich around Clifford let alone a club. Even barring the endless injuries, in the three years he’s barely played - the game has moved on. Dunno if his skill set even works in new way of using back 3.

Never get particularly exited to see him back in squad.

Since Clifford doesn't play in the back 3, I doubt that will have affected his game.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #39 on: »
Since Clifford doesn't play in the back 3, I doubt that will have affected his game.

Yes, that was a typo. Maybe he should though then he might live up to his promise of four years ago which has all but vanished sadly for him.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #40 on: »
Looks like Wasps might be struggling to keep a number of their players too, according to this report...

Re: Rumours
« Reply #41 on: »
Yes, that was a typo. Maybe he should though then he might live up to his promise of four years ago which has all but vanished sadly for him.

I don't see how you can say his promise has "vanished". He's 25 and three matches into a comeback from long term injury. The most you can say is "we haven't seen enough yet to know if he'll make a full comeback."

Billy Vunipola is 26, and is going through a similarly protracted string of injuries. Does that mean that his promise has also vanished? The material difference is that Vunipola established himself as an international before he got injured, whereas it looks like Clifford was already carrying the shoulder injury when he got his chance for England.

I also suspect that which players will get a chance at an England shirt these days is less about style of play and more about who is fit at the right point in time. The key skill for a back rower is becoming managing their own fitness more than anything else (which is one major reason why I wouldn't bet against Robshaw going to the RWC, despite being written off by fans and pundits for the umpteenth time).

Re: Rumours
« Reply #42 on: »
Also John Kingston, but I don't think anyone really listened to him...

But Ben Darwin's point is subtly different - his analysis of players moving teams suggests that it takes 18 months or more for them to fully integrate into a side and start performing at the level they were at before they left, and longer for props in particular because of the technical aspects of the setpiece (everyone emphasises slightly different things, and you have to learn to work with your fellow front rows).

It's hard for us to appreciate this when we're playing or coaching at an amateur level and individual talent can often overcome team cohesion, but at a professional level the margins are even finer and cohesion counts for so much more.

To give two examples - player for player there weren't many in the 2011-12 Quins team who were clearly better than the best of their opponents. NEv. Maybe Robshaw. But we did have a lot of cohesion and a team that started winning and learning to play off each other effectively and it was enough.

More controversial, perhaps, but the All Blacks aren't that much better than their opponents individually. It's their ability to keep playing their system right to the end of games that usually breaks down opponents in the end, even when they go behind. But on Saturday they came up against a team who could match them step for step in sticking to the game.

It's a very valid point and one that you could make about Exeter currently - the key spine of their team appear to largely home-grown or decently established recruits (Yeandle, Simmonds, Armand, Ewers, Steenson etc etc), with a sprinkling of top-notch imports (Nic White, Kvesic).  They have an established system where people know their jobs.  Similarly Ireland - they're probably not individually much more talented than England, but have been coached to know their systems and structures inside-out along with the skills and techniques needed to make that system work e.g. breakdown work is top notch so they don't have to commit too many to rucks for quick ball.

If I were a Chiefs fan, I'd be excited about signing Hogg but for the same reasons wouldn't necessarily expect him to move seamlessly over.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #43 on: »
I don't see how you can say his promise has "vanished". He's 25 and three matches into a comeback from long term injury. The most you can say is "we haven't seen enough yet to know if he'll make a full comeback."

Billy Vunipola is 26, and is going through a similarly protracted string of injuries. Does that mean that his promise has also vanished? The material difference is that Vunipola established himself as an international before he got injured, whereas it looks like Clifford was already carrying the shoulder injury when he got his chance for England.

I also suspect that which players will get a chance at an England shirt these days is less about style of play and more about who is fit at the right point in time. The key skill for a back rower is becoming managing their own fitness more than anything else (which is one major reason why I wouldn't bet against Robshaw going to the RWC, despite being written off by fans and pundits for the umpteenth time).

All pretty valid, but Vunipola has broken through and is world class. I just don't think Clifford is going to be. I'm not sure that the game hasn't gone past when his size and skills were going to be the best to have. Hope I'm wrong and hope he's great for Quins.

Re: Rumours
« Reply #44 on: »
Jackman is 6ft 4 and 17st7
versus
Mark Wilson
6ft3 and 17st 9

Not sure the game has changed so much that Jack isn't able to still be a really good premiership player -

Also bloke made his break through in the 14/15 season - played 20+ games, he then played 20+ games the following season(15/16) and then 13 games the season after that(16/17) - he missed one season due to injury (18/18) and yet some people want to write him off.