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Sinckler was a loss - but he has never been as good since his move as he was for Quins. Arguably he left at just the right time. Collier's got more Prem medals that Sinck has
Clifford's shoulder issues date back to his academy days - I can remember COS saying in his breakthrough season at a Quinssa event "If he stays fit, he will play for England. If he stays fit, he will captain England".
Lynagh left as a condition of his international ambitions; not much we could do there. Marchant left as a result of Eddie's undermining of his international ambitions; not much we could do there, either. Brown's departure was badly handled and he was right and the club was wrong about how much he had left to contribute, but it's not as if Green has done badly and is probably a lot cheaper.
Tizard was targeted by Sarries as a replacement for Kruis; but that left us with Hammond and Lamb. Likewise, Ibitoye was less important to keep given Murley, Lynagh, Cleaves etc.
Every team has good Academy graduates that they lose; the question for Quins is whether they are losing any who are irreplaceable.
Losing Jibulu would be a blow, but he is not our only hooker and the issue I suspect is that he's matured early. Losing Anyanwu I think is in some ways worse because he's currently our only senior player who looks comfortable at 12. But by and large Quins have hung on to the players they really need -
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I don’t disagree with you, poorfour, any my comment wasn't meant as an analysis of the rights or wrongs on any of those decisions. I was just commenting on Yareet’s academy 23 post where he said our academy production has been patchy.
Also, I had somehow totally forgotten about Collier, let’s add him to that list I provided. He and Sink as a 1-2 at tighthead is pretty impressive from an academy production perspective. -
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Fair enough. Being a bit provocative, but from the club's perspective I think that they want a balance between internationals and players who are just below international level. We've had a good production line of players who fit that bill.
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Yareet, I’m struggling to follow what you’re responding to, so maybe this is irrelevant, but if we’re talking about developing academy talent, I think it’s worth considering those who have moved on? Sinckler, Clifford, Tizard, Marchant, Lynagh and (maybe) Brown would be a few Quins academy products who would significantly strengthen that 23 you’ve outlined. Injury/retention being the issue there, not the ability to bring players through from the academy.
Ibitoye is doing okay at Bristol right now too.
Nothing broader than an outsider's counter perspective that perhaps some on this board have put too much faith put in the ability to replace with academy talent.
For whatever reason, it seems that Quins have struggled historically to either develop players in certain positions (9 and 15 being the obvious examples) or to hold on to them (3). The current squad seems very reliant on imports.
Every club loses academy products. I'd love to still have Ashman and Sam James to strengthen the Sale all-academy 23! -
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Fair enough, I can’t argue against the fact that we are currently heavily reliant on imports.
However, I don’t think the faith in our academy is misplaced. I think our academy has produced very well historically, and I think that if we are concerned with replacing talent via the academy, then looking at our academy production is a more reliable metric than academy products who are still at the club.
Seems to me that as a Quins fan I should have fairly good faith that we will have academy talent that can replace the outgoings. I just shouldn’t be confident we can hold on to that academy talent long term. -
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Joseph rumoured off to Glaws now too. Fissler says.
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Joseph rumoured off to Glaws now too. Fissler says.
We must have something seriously big cooking, especially in the centres, if all of these outgoings are to be believed.
I do worry we are putting too much of our hopes on Northmore A) being real international quality consistently B) able to play 12 or 13 seamlessly.
Please don't misinterpret the above about LN, I think he's a great player but has had injury issues and not set the world alight at 12. -
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Joseph is behind Beard and Northmore so he needs to move for game time. Too good to be a 3rd choice
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Fair enough, I can’t argue against the fact that we are currently heavily reliant on imports.
However, I don’t think the faith in our academy is misplaced. I think our academy has produced very well historically, and I think that if we are concerned with replacing talent via the academy, then looking at our academy production is a more reliable metric than academy products who are still at the club.
Seems to me that as a Quins fan I should have fairly good faith that we will have academy talent that can replace the outgoings. I just shouldn’t be confident we can hold on to that academy talent long term.
But if the role of the academy is to produce the next generation of players, why aren't Quins holding on to them? These should be the heart and soul of your club going forward.
From experience, the clubs who habitually lose their best academy products have typically been towards the bottom of the table (and I include Sale in that in the period between Saint-Andre and Simon Orange). If you're constantly needing the next cab off the rank, success is hard.
Plus, it may be my misconception but I have a view of Quins as a club who have been largely successful at holding onto their key young talent. The 23 for the 2012 final had a dozen (?) academy products who all stayed with Quins either until retirement or for around another decade.
Something has changed significantly if there is now such a reliance on imports. -
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But if the role of the academy is to produce the next generation of players, why aren't Quins holding on to them? These should be the heart and soul of your club going forward…
Oh, I completely agree, it’s not ideal. I would love to still have the likes of Collier and Marchant turning out for Quins. My comment was purely intended to highlight that the Quins academy has done a pretty decent job of producing talent in recent history.
Right now, it’s a little concerning to see all the rumours of players leaving. But it’s only November. There’s a lot to still happen. Let’s see where we end up.
(And as I write “it’s only November” I think, isn’t there some sort of rule that says premiership clubs can’t approach players until January? Or did I dream that?) -
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(And as I write “it’s only November” I think, isn’t there some sort of rule that says premiership clubs can’t approach players until January? Or did I dream that?)
Yes I'm sure you're right but there's no rule against players contacting clubs, AFAIK. -
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Oh, I completely agree, it’s not ideal. I would love to still have the likes of Collier and Marchant turning out for Quins. My comment was purely intended to highlight that the Quins academy has done a pretty decent job of producing talent in recent history.
Right now, it’s a little concerning to see all the rumours of players leaving. But it’s only November. There’s a lot to still happen. Let’s see where we end up.
(And as I write “it’s only November” I think, isn’t there some sort of rule that says premiership clubs can’t approach players until January? Or did I dream that?)
Rule has been changed, I believe so it’s now any time in the final season of a contract. -
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For whatever reason, it seems that Quins have struggled historically to either develop players in certain positions (9 and 15 being the obvious examples)
Obvious?
England's most capped fullback, close to 400 appearances at club level, top 10 for tries scored in the premiership...
As for the difference with 2012, it's pretty obvious:
Harlequins: Brown; Williams, Lowe, Turner-Hall, Monye; Evans, Care; Marler, Gray, Johnston, Kohn, Robson, Fa'asavalu, Robshaw, Easter.
Replacements: Buchanan, Lambert, Collier, Vallejos, Guest, Dickson, Clegg, Hopper.
That squad had a lot of players a mile away from international selection and a couple about to pick up a handful of caps. JTH was capped that summer then binned by England. Gray got nowhere near for years. Kohn got a comedy Wales call at the end of his career. Robson was never capped iirc, Robshaw and Marler had only just started playing for England regularly. I think only Vallejos on the bench had any caps.
Brown, Care, Easter, NEv, Monye were the big names there but there were a lot of players who wouldn't be commanding big wages or being targets for other sides. The quality in the squad now is miles ahead of 2012; we have JEv instead of Clegg, Porter instead of Dickson, about twenty backs better than Hopper, and guys like Chisholm, CCS, Lawday as upgrades over Guest. Our first two choices at loosehead are England internationals, one a Lion, and we have Welsh internationals who warm the bench or can't even make the squad
It's a completely different era. Much more quality throughout the squad and plenty of players who would command big money in places like France because of their sustained impact in big games.
When quins finally started developing England internationals, we suffered badly from the drop off when they were called up or injured. Now the squad is far less lopsided, but it does mean some very good players aren't able to hold down a starting spot or are clearly worth huge money on the open market -
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Nothing broader than an outsider's counter perspective that perhaps some on this board have put too much faith put in the ability to replace with academy talent.
For whatever reason, it seems that Quins have struggled historically to either develop players in certain positions (9 and 15 being the obvious examples) or to hold on to them (3). The current squad seems very reliant on imports.
Every club loses academy products. I'd love to still have Ashman and Sam James to strengthen the Sale all-academy 23!
The art of managing a player pipeline is to have a replacement ready at the right time. Care and Brown’s remarkable longevity means they haven’t needed to develop replacements - though there have been some candidates. Sam Stuart and Ross Chisholm both had the potential, but both suffered bad knee injuries that stopped them reaching the level that was needed.
Instead, Quins have brought in Porter and Green, who have stepped into the roles seamlessly, and there are other options coming through in both roles. Friday looks very promising, and Murley, Anderson and Slevin are all options at fullback.
What has impressed me recently is how good Quins have been at replacing great players just when it was needed, mostly with academy players or players getting their first pro contract at Quins -
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Fair enough. Being a bit provocative, but from the club's perspective I think that they want a balance between internationals and players who are just below international level. We've had a good production line of players who fit that bill.
This highlights a real conundrum.
Player A comes through the Quins academy, becomes a first team regular and stakes a claim to play for England. Because the RFU then pay them additional money and stop them moving overseas they are likely to stay at Quins but only be available for fewer games due to international call-ups. Other Prem teams won't take them because they can't be marquee players.
Player B comes through the Quins academy, becomes a first team regular but is just below international level or doesn't get picked by perverse management decisions. They play week in week out for Quins but don't get additional RFU central funding. Big French team see them and can offer significantly more money. Quins lose their player at the end of contract after 2-4 years of excellent service.
The new central contracts will help us (and other Prem teams) keep a select few players but for those not on guaranteed money, the allure of the Euro may prove too strong in a limited career.
Interestingly, both models have seen success - Sarries won the league and European Cup with a squad heaving with internationals (albeit by pushing the envelope on salary cap payments at least in places) meanwhile Exeter did the double with a squad of almost no English internationals. Quins have fallen between the two of late. -
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