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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote from: Kermitpower on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 14:57*
Personally I'd fix it by saying that if a team concede a yellow card at a scrum inside their own 22, they automatically concede a penalty try to go with it.

I'd be against that. A Penalty Try is awarded where a try would definitely been scored had it not been for the infringing action. It's hard to say that for a scrum yellow card 15m out a try would definitely be scored from that position.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #31 on: »
Quote from: Kermitpower on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 14:57*
Just having to make that choice feels unfair to me.

Personally I'd fix it by saying that if a team concede a yellow card at a scrum inside their own 22, they automatically concede a penalty try to go with it.

Yikes. I don't think we should give referees even more ability to decide games, given how incredibly subjective scrum penalties can be to begin with.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #32 on: »
I don't think we should be taking the scrum any further away from its original intention as a restart. 
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #33 on: »
Whilst I do see the validity of the points above, it doesn't change the fact that the Leicester pack were completely dominating the Bristol pack until the yellow card, at which point bringing Afoa back in turned the tables.

Okay, maybe using the 22 is a bit much - let's call it 10m instead - but there surely nobody can deny that Leicester were more heavily punished for winning that yellow than Bristol were for conceding it?

Alternatively, maybe there should be a different law specifically for when the clock is already in the red?  This is far from the first time we've seen games end in farce like this.  If it had happened with 10 minutes left to play, then certainly it would've given Leicester an advantage, but they got completely screwed because it was the last play of the match.

Personally, I'm glad they still won, as I think we've got a much better chance of beating them at Ashton Gate than we have Exeter at Sandy Park, but it still doesn't fit comfortably with my belief in fair play!
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #34 on: »
100% if we went to Sandy Park we would get a schooling. They are a proper business team in these games. Out the two we have a much bigger chance of Sh!t housing a win against Bristol. If Sale turn over Exeter, I'd actually fancy us in the final.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #35 on: »
Quote from: Kermitpower on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 16:24*
Okay, maybe using the 22 is a bit much - let's call it 10m instead - but there surely nobody can deny that Leicester were more heavily punished for winning that yellow than Bristol were for conceding it?

Leicester chose to scrum again, knowing that it would mean Afoa would be coming back onto the field. I don't see that as Leicester being punished at all. They lost (rightly or wrongly) the resulting scrum and were punished for losing that, not for the yellow card.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #36 on: »
Id say our best chance is against Bristol.  Fight fire with fire in terms of trying to out score them!!!!  I think our pack would give us the edge (esp is Chisholm is fit)

Sale vs Exeter would be a brutefest.  Im not sure we have to power to trouble either of them, but maybe on a sunny/hot day we could wear them down a bit
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #37 on: »
Quote from: Kermitpower on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 16:24*
Okay, maybe using the 22 is a bit much - let's call it 10m instead - but there surely nobody can deny that Leicester were more heavily punished for winning that yellow than Bristol were for conceding it?

I'll deny it. Bristol lost a prop, had to replace him with one who had already played and thus was tired, and had been sitting down for a while - so not in a great shape to go back on - with no warmup, as well as losing another player. Leicester received no punishment at all. They had all options available to them. The opposition having a player come on while going down to a numerical disadvantage is not a punishment for Leicester.

Leicester got cocky and thought they could take the scrum every time. The punishment came from their own hubris - and their inability to score before that point. Teams do not have a divine right to win every scrum. It's meant to be a contest, and sometimes you'll lose that contest.

I don't think it's fair to say that a player coming back on has no downsides. There's a lot that happens to the body when you've been involved in strenuous exercise and then just sit around for a while.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #38 on: »
Quote from: JammyGit on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 16:55*
I'll deny it. Bristol lost a prop, had to replace him with one who had already played and thus was tired, and had been sitting down for a while - so not in a great shape to go back on - with no warmup, as well as losing another player. Leicester received no punishment at all. They had all options available to them. The opposition having a player come on while going down to a numerical disadvantage is not a punishment for Leicester.

Leicester got cocky and thought they could take the scrum every time. The punishment came from their own hubris - and their inability to score before that point. Teams do not have a divine right to win every scrum. It's meant to be a contest, and sometimes you'll lose that contest.

I don't think it's fair to say that a player coming back on has no downsides. There's a lot that happens to the body when you've been involved in strenuous exercise and then just sit around for a while.

I'd put most of it down to Tempest who was happy to let Bristol infringe time after time with impunity in the final 5 minutes or so, but what sort of choice did Leicester actually have?

1.  Go for anything other than the scrum = open play, which they'd not been anything like as successful at.  Remember it only took one knock-on or other loss of possession and that's game over.

2.  Go for the scrum = Afoa back on having had a nice rest, knowing all he has to do is get through one scrum against Genge who'd played the whole game and must've been blowing through his backside by then.

Either of those is a disadvantage to Leicester.  Maybe the answer should automatically be another player off and uncontested scrums regardless of whether or not Afoa could come back on.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #39 on: »
But uncontested scrums would be punishing the team that didn't offend so much at scrum time by ensuring they couldn't use their scrum dominance!

Essentially you're asking for the punishment to never result in anything other than a guaranteed score - open play with a man advantage isn't enough, a lineout with a man advantage isnt enough, a scrum against a tired & not warmed-up prop with a pumped-up pack isn't enough... If the risk of a knock-on is too much of a disadvantage then that's slightly absurd. The idea isn't to gift a team a try!

And again, characterising it as "a nice rest" is not accurate. Afoa went off having put in a shift, sat around building up lactic acid and having his muscles tighten, and had to go back on with no warning or warmup time. At the age of 37!
« Last Edit: Monday 07-Jun-2021, 17:43* by JammyGit »
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #40 on: »
Wigglesworth should never have put the ball into the scrum, Bristol clearly had a nudge on. To me that was far more influential than the state of Afoa
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #41 on: »
Quote from: honkytonk on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 16:43*
Id say our best chance is against Bristol.  Fight fire with fire in terms of trying to out score them!!!!  I think our pack would give us the edge (esp is Chisholm is fit)

Sale vs Exeter would be a brutefest.  Im not sure we have to power to trouble either of them, but maybe on a sunny/hot day we could wear them down a bit

Either we’re a team of South Africans or we’re a team that don’t like the heat. Both can’t be true! 🤣
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #42 on: »
Quote from: Yareet on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 18:22*
Either we’re a team of South Africans or we’re a team that don’t like the heat. Both can’t be true! 🤣

I was thinking more about us trying to play with tempo and moving your big boys around.  Were not going to out muscle you.  Hopefully it will be a roasting hot day at HQ!!!
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #43 on: »
Quote from: honkytonk on Monday 07-Jun-2021, 18:45*
I was thinking more about us trying to play with tempo and moving your big boys around.  Were not going to out muscle you.  Hopefully it will be a roasting hot day at HQ!!!

Yeah sorry. My post was far from a dig at you and more of reaction to people saying that the harder tracks favour Bristol and Quins over Sale and Exeter.

Still think it’ll be a Chiefs v Bristol final but both of them showed a chink of fallibility this weekend which should give Quins and Sale hope.

Both seemed to be be undone by very aggressive defence which possibly plays more into Sale’s hands than Quins’ but similarly Quins’ ability to play for 80+ minutes and score from anywhere makes them a threat to anyone.

Wouldn’t like to place a figurative fiver on any team getting beaten.
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Re: Leicester vs Bristol
« Reply #44 on: »
I think when push comes to shove, Exeter are still the team to beat by a long way, but.......from the 4 in the Play offs, Sale look like the best bet for running them close.  Id say whoever wins that semi, will win the comp.
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  3. Leicester vs Bristol